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musekatcher - Posted - 12/11/2007: 13:28:27
I've read the basic dimensions for a strad include a scale length of 328mm and 330 mm. I've also read the distance from the bridge feet to the neck joint is 190mm and 195mm. What is the best way to determine the correct scale length, and bridge distance?
Jim
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
M-D - Posted - 12/11/2007: 15:15:03
Theoretically speaking, measure the distance from the nut (on the finger-board side) to the edge of the top plate; then, divide by three, then multiply times two. Add that distance to your first measurment, and you'll have the correct scale length . . . provided that the instrument was laid out proportionately in the first place. Every instrument is different, and some require minor tweaks from "correct". And, the nicks aren't always in the proper place, neither.
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Edited by - M-D on 12/11/2007 15:16:46
chrisandcello - Posted - 12/11/2007: 18:25:55
The guitar method is hit the 12th fret (octave) harmonic...then finger it. If the fingered note is sharper then lengthen the string...flatter, shorten the string (is that right way round?)
Same applies to any stringed instrument.....its harder to finger accurately with the higher action of violin...but the principle is there for bridge placement etc.............
captainhook - Posted - 12/11/2007: 19:54:42
quote:
Originally posted by musekatcher
I've read the basic dimensions for a strad include a scale length of 328mm and 330 mm. I've also read the distance from the bridge feet to the neck joint is 190mm and 195mm. What is the best way to determine the correct scale length, and bridge distance?
Jim, 328 is pretty standard for scale length, though Strobel says the MENC standard is 330. Not enough difference to worry about. Stop length (bridge to edge of top plate) is usually 195, which then makes bridge to neck joint closer to 187 to 189. Top edge to nut is about 130 (2/3 of stop length). Many older instruments do not match these measurements. Then you have to decide how to compromise, usually by what sounds or plays best.
Lyle
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
musekatcher - Posted - 12/12/2007: 09:57:40
Thanks Lyle and MD - 2 mm ain't much, but I like to have my fiddles setup identically, and I've discovered at least one non-standard instrument in my fold. F-hole notches are definately not 100% reliable. I've been using Stroebels 330 mm and 195 mm to top plate edge as gospel till reading about 328 mm more recently. Is it more than coincidence that Strobels 330 mm is [pretty much] exactly 13 inches?
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
captainhook - Posted - 12/12/2007: 16:51:00
Not sure. Most of my references say 12 7/8" or 328 mm, but Strobel implies that his numbers (330 mm) are MENC approved. However, in a diagram he says 328-330, so even he is not too certain. I have found several instruments that seem to set up best at 325 mm and a few at about 335, though that is definitely extreme. If you have just one oddball, I would set it up like the others if that seems to work.
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
monradon - Posted - 12/13/2007: 08:26:13
M-D if I am reading your post right the first meaurement is the one from the nut to the body right ?? Then you add what ever you came up with to this for the right scale length ??
Hobbit
M-D - Posted - 12/13/2007: 10:45:51
Yes, Monradon . . . except I boo-booed. The ratio is 2:3, but the neck length, from nut to edge of top plate, should be divided by 2, then multiplied by 3. I got it backwards in my first post.
Let us assume a neck length of 130mm, divided by 2 is 65, times 3 is 195. Add 130 to 195 and we arrive at 325mm for the scale length.
Glad you asked! I always get it backwards, unless I actually do the math, then the error becomes obvious. 
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
captainhook - Posted - 12/13/2007: 17:48:32
Right, M-D, except that the 130+195 mm is essentially straight-line from nut to (usually) center of bridge feet. The height and angle of the bridge adds 2 or 3 mm to that for scale length. At least on the ones I make.
Lyle
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
Texasfiddle - Posted - 12/13/2007: 19:50:27
quote:
Originally posted by captainhook
Right, M-D, except that the 130+195 mm is essentially straight-line from nut to (usually) center of bridge feet. The height and angle of the bridge adds 2 or 3 mm to that for scale length. At least on the ones I make.
Lyle
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
Captainhook,
Do you have a particular pattern you use (several ) , (Strad , Guarneri ) ? Just curious .
M-D - Posted - 12/13/2007: 20:22:11
See the disclaimer as to theory and proportion in my first post.
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
captainhook - Posted - 12/14/2007: 11:39:27
Yeah, M-D. I wasn't trying to be hard on you, but my buddy and fellow left-hander Jim seemed to be trying to get it down to the mm.
Texasfiddle, I use a few patterns, most of them Strad approximations, but one based on E. Heron-Allen's geometric formula. It's not far from later Strad forms except that the corners are set a little higher. I like that because I sometimes tend to catch bowhair on the upper offside corner.
quote:
Originally posted by Texasfiddle
Do you have a particular pattern you use (several ) , (Strad , Guarneri ) ? Just curious .
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
M-D - Posted - 12/14/2007: 12:45:24
I know, that's why I put the smiley face, but thank you for your consideration.
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People, myself included, like everything nice and tidy, step by step, cut and dried. Violins/fiddles, despite their being designed a certain way, do not lend themselves to this. Besides the human error involved, each is made from an organic material, and each is unique and demands uniqueness in attention to detail. Over and over on forums, people ask as to how to do X, then get frustrated when no "by the numbers" answer is given, as though those answering are hiding something. I wish that it were so, but my experience is that theory is a place to start, but where one ends up may diverge quite a bit from that.
In case anyone wonders, the ratio for violin is 2:3, for cello 7:10, and for bass 3:4.
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 12/14/2007: 19:04:05
Thirteen inches.
Johnny Thomasson
Aledo, Texas
Texasfiddle - Posted - 12/14/2007: 22:50:52
quote:
Originally posted by captainhook
Yeah, M-D. I wasn't trying to be hard on you, but my buddy and fellow left-hander Jim seemed to be trying to get it down to the mm.
Texasfiddle, I use a few patterns, most of them Strad approximations, but one based on E. Heron-Allen's geometric formula. It's not far from later Strad forms except that the corners are set a little higher. I like that because I sometimes tend to catch bowhair on the upper offside corner.
quote:
Originally posted by Texasfiddle
Do you have a particular pattern you use (several ) , (Strad , Guarneri ) ? Just curious .
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
Thanks for the reply, one of these days I am going to try and build one. I think I will start a new thread about building fiddles.
monradon - Posted - 12/15/2007: 08:10:49
Is the Viola 2:3 or does it vary because of the different sizes ??
Hobbit
M-D - Posted - 12/15/2007: 12:45:25
I have no idea, and have wondered the same thing. Never see one, so haven't had the opportunity to check, neither.
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
captainhook - Posted - 12/15/2007: 18:24:53
According to Strobel the viola ratio is also 2:3. I measured one of mine that is off a little from that. In general, violas are less standardized than violins and cellos, though. Of course, as M-D pointed out, there is more variation in all of them than some people would like to believe. I understand that players and factories like standardization but us independent makers are harder to corral.
captainhook
Transylvania County, USA
monradon - Posted - 12/15/2007: 19:42:17
From the ones I have adjusted it looks like alot of fiddles just go by the notch and nothing else
Hobbit
Texasfiddle - Posted - 12/16/2007: 12:25:35
quote:
Originally posted by M-D
Yes, Monradon . . . except I boo-booed. The ratio is 2:3, but the neck length, from nut to edge of top plate, should be divided by 2, then multiplied by 3. I got it backwards in my first post.
Let us assume a neck length of 130mm, divided by 2 is 65, times 3 is 195. Add 130 to 195 and we arrive at 325mm for the scale length.
Glad you asked! I always get it backwards, unless I actually do the math, then the error becomes obvious.
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Just out of curiosity , I measured a couple of my instruments in my process of trying to learn more about the construction of these great instruments. I came up with 325 mm on my main instrument I play and the notches show perfect to this measurement also, my other instrument has a grafted neck, ( was built in the early 1800's ) , it came up at 315 mm , with this it is nowhere near the notches , or the setup that is on it when I acquired this instrument ? ( it is set at 325 mm ) . I will not tamper with it , it sounds great as is, but just wondering why it would come up so different than the Math ?.
M-D - Posted - 12/16/2007: 13:41:26
Texasfiddle,
Might your older instrument have once been set up as a Baroque instrument? What is the length of the finger-board, from nut to end? And, the neck's projection height at the nicks? What is the height of the neck's over-stand, measured underneath the finger-board?
I've seen instruments whose neck length did not correspond with the body length, especially not the nicks, even though they were in approximate position for the body. One in particular had a scale-length that should have been 320mm, but no way was that going to work. I put the bridge at the nicks, and adjusted accordingly. The person playing it was never going to leave first position, so. . . .
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Texasfiddle - Posted - 12/16/2007: 14:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by M-D
Texasfiddle,
Might your older instrument have once been set up as a Baroque instrument? What is the length of the finger-board, from nut to end? And, the neck's projection height at the nicks? What is the height of the neck's over-stand, measured underneath the finger-board?
I've seen instruments whose neck length did not correspond with the body length, especially not the nicks, even though they were in approximate position for the body. One in particular had a scale-length that should have been 320mm, but no way was that going to work. I put the bridge at the nicks, and adjusted accordingly. The person playing it was never going to leave first position, so. . . .
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Fingerboard is 26.6 cm and 1.7 cm from instrument body to top of fingerboard or 1.4 cm to the underside of the fingerboard, I am not sure if I am measuring this right for you ?. Not real sure what Baroque is , I am guessing the way the instrument was built , before 440 pitch ?.
M-D - Posted - 12/16/2007: 15:51:41
I wrote that, then realised that at some point, somewhere in history, not all violins were made using the 2:3 ratio. I dont recall when it was that things changed and the 2:3 became common.
As old as that instrument is, it's probable that the finger-board has been replaced at some point. No telling how the maker determined his proportions, though. As you said, it works well like it is, and best to leave it at that.
To be brief, Baroque music required a different bowing than does the more modern classical-music, the strings were gut, with less angle to the neck, and a shorter finger-board. Even the bows were different. No one was playing in the higher positions of today's violins in those days, neither.
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Texasfiddle - Posted - 12/16/2007: 17:52:51
quote:
Originally posted by M-D
I wrote that, then realised that at some point, somewhere in history, not all violins were made using the 2:3 ratio. I dont recall when it was that things changed and the 2:3 became common.
As old as that instrument is, it's probable that the finger-board has been replaced at some point. No telling how the maker determined his proportions, though. As you said, it works well like it is, and best to leave it at that.
To be brief, Baroque music required a different bowing than does the more modern classical-music, the strings were gut, with less angle to the neck, and a shorter finger-board. Even the bows were different. No one was playing in the higher positions of today's violins in those days, neither.
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
I've been told that somewhere around the 1850's is when 440 pitch came into play, that is probably when the ratio came around also ?. This is the reasoning for grafting the necks. Thanks also for the info on the baroque instruments , I hear about them but wasn't really sure what the reference was for.
monradon - Posted - 12/16/2007: 18:28:06
Texas just remember the 440 is still not a world standard even today we use it over here but alot of other places do not yet. Roger Siminoff has a good coverage in his books . I have a couple of oldies I have not got to yet and a couple of them the measurements are different . I am lucky enough to live in South Dakota where the Shrine to Music is and one of the gals that works there is sharp as a tack on telling where it was made and app age. Two of them I was going to use for parts she talked me into restoring one is a early american made 18?? and the other is a french made one.
Hobbit
Texasfiddle - Posted - 12/16/2007: 20:26:47
quote:
Originally posted by monradon
Texas just remember the 440 is still not a world standard even today we use it over here but alot of other places do not yet. Roger Siminoff has a good coverage in his books . I have a couple of oldies I have not got to yet and a couple of them the measurements are different . I am lucky enough to live in South Dakota where the Shrine to Music is and one of the gals that works there is sharp as a tack on telling where it was made and app age. Two of them I was going to use for parts she talked me into restoring one is a early american made 18?? and the other is a french made one.
Hobbit
I wasn't aware that 440 wasn't the standard , I just assumed , I understand that there are still a few Strads and Guarneri's untouched , ( no grafted neck ) , not sure if these instruments get played or not , maybe just in a museum somewhere ?. Sound like you may have some nice treasures. I agree with your friend on restoring , of course myself , I can't stand to throw anything away, just ask my wife !!...
lrhamp - Posted - 12/17/2007: 06:40:43
The exact scale length is the length of the string from nut to bridge. The bridge placement of the violin can be varied---therefore the scale length can vary. The distance of a string note-say the E string note- to the next higher E' note is 1/2 the string length. Many musicians refer to the E' note as the 1st harmonic but from a physicist's view it is known as the 2nd harmonic. Confusing isn't it?
lrhamp
Edited by - lrhamp on 12/18/2007 05:13:03
monradon - Posted - 12/17/2007: 08:51:49
It was supposed to be the standard in 1939 but untill WWII , France was and still is A432, Even the New York orchestra was between 432 - 435 until after WWII . Most countries are coming around but France and a few others still use the different concert pitch. From my readings might be why the variation in some fiddles but got to learn more to say that for sure.
Hobbit
woodwiz - Posted - 12/17/2007: 08:59:18
Scale length, as far as I know, has no relation to concert pitch. Even in baroque times, there were more than one "standard" pitch, IIRC. Stretching my memory now, but I seem to recall that there was one pitch for concerts, and one for church music, for example.
Some orchestras, especially in Europe are going to 442, for some reason. All you do to change pitch is turn the pegs - you don't have to build a new fiddle.
Difference in scale length may be due to local making tradition, or more likely to the skill or idiosyncrasy of the maker.
Michael R
Every Fiddler has a Dream
www.kcstrings.com
monradon - Posted - 12/18/2007: 07:46:51
You said it better than I did.
Hobbit
dbhone - Posted - 12/17/2008: 08:49:55
I have an old Hopf copy that has a body stop of 195mm, but the neck length is 122mm. I am moving the bridge around trying to find the best sounding place. Using the above formula, I get:
122/2=61 x 3 =183 + 122 = 305mm which is way short! 320mm seems to be the best so far. Of course, every time I move the bridge, I have to reset the sound post!
Any suggestions? Thanks, Dan
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 12/17/2008: 09:57:58
I'm not there, so this may qualify as rumor, but I have been told by someone who was recetnly in Germany that 325 mm is the current European position. For some reason, they like it a bit shorter than the 328-330 which is typical in the US.
And I've heard the 442 Hz tuning is current as well. I don't know why, and as earlier mentioned, the stop length is not a factor in that.
As to where to position the bridge on the old Hopf copy, and without seeing it, I'd say set it at the notches, and see if it works there. Sometimes you just can't force fiddles to be something they aren't, and you can get used to the different stop length. It may even sound best there. Occasionally the makers knew what they were doing!
Cheers,
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
