fiddleflow - Posted - 12/21/2010:  09:50:16

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I read that there are only 12 notes in music ( ABCDEFG , and thier sharps or flats) to study and master. Doesn't make sense then to study and memorize how each note sounds before one studies, or practices songs, tunes, chords and other parts of a tune?. Any subject one wants to study has basics and fundamentas, and mastering and getting comfortable with this basics is the key before tackling the subject, and music should not be an exception. Any comment?.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/21/2010:  10:11:35

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleflow

Doesn't make sense then to study and memorize how each note sounds before one studies, or practices songs, tunes, chords and other parts of a tune?

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I think you're not wrong. Most people jump right in and pass right over a lot of very important stuff, and in the process struggle more than they should at first. Many then give up thinking they have no talent for it, when what they need is just a little more work at the very beginning.

But what it sounds like to me that you are talking about is "perfect pitch", having a good understanding of the individual characteristics of each note. An A note really does sound completely different from an Eb, etc. While spending some time every practice session just listening to notes will surely help with intonation, I think the more valuable skill is "relative pitch", being able to harmonize to notes, hear intervals, etc.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2010:  10:59:35

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Keep in mind very few folks, even very good musicians have perfect pitch. What most have is good relative pitch or intervals. You basically get that from playing :) You've been listening to notes and intervals all your life so you have a ton of that in your head to start out with.

cstewart - Posted - 12/21/2010:  13:24:34

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Found this posted on another forum and figured this would be a good place to put it. I've only gone a couple rounds with the "Breakout" style game but it seems to have potential.

trainer.thetamusic.com/en/cont...ing-games

fiddleflow - Posted - 12/21/2010:  13:28:55

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Music learning is a scary buisiness for most beginners, because there doesn't seem to be one clear way of learning it, unlike carpentery, chemistry, accounting ...etc. Other subjects have a " clear" basics, things you have to master before you go to the nexet level, but with music , good luck. But anything has basics, no matter how blurry and fuzzy the basics seem, and in music , musical alphabets seem the basics.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/21/2010:  14:29:54

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I agree with the idea of learning fundamentals, but not with memorizing pitches (especially keyboard pitches). Intervals, pitch harmonic relation and contour are IMO more useful. Mostly I don't think the standard "memorizing" process works very well. I think building strong sensory experience works way better.

Edwin Gordon provides good reading on the subject. giml.org

Much of it is what he calls audiating - which is to hear the proper pitches in your head first. Indeed you put focus on "learning" the pitch relations by experiencing; rather than memorizing individual notes and applying a mathematical formula to it after. For example, one can memorize a 440hz pitch and a 660hz pitch; be told that is an A and an E, be "told" it's important because they are a perfect fifth - but that is different than experiencing the the feel of a well locked perfect fifth. The best way to experience the harmonic relevance is by voice - singing.

Besides the advocating the harmonic aspect, Gordon also advocates experiencing and audiating the rhythm. IMO, far more folks struggle with rhythmic aspects than harmonic aspects (like pitch and intonation). Not that their timing is particularly horrible, but timing is just one aspect of rhythm. I think adults especially tend to skip over the basics of rhythm, and believe they can get the job done with an analytical; mathematical; counting; foot tapping; quantitative; abstract process.

I don't think one needs to memorize each individual component (each note) as a separate unit (outside of any other music aspects or context) - one can use songs/tunes. Context helps understand the fundamentals.

The problem with memorizing each individual pitch is our brains are not as well suited for memorized exact measurement of things. How accurate is someone at marking (with no other reference) exactly 12 inches; 45mph; 6 pounds; one quart? We are though much better at comparative relation of things - like half, thirds, quarters - or like a baseball, how soon it will get to you.

I think music is much more about the relationships, both harmonic and rhythmic, than it is about exact measurement of individual units.

Just some thoughts

Dick Hauser - Posted - 12/21/2010:  16:22:25

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An aspiring player can listen to fiddlers on Youtube. This will acquaint that person with the different fiddling styles, and help the listener start memorizing melodies.

I agree with your statements, but there are physical aspects that must be learned. Finding a QUALIFIED instructor and learning to perform these physical things will accelerate the learning process. Whatever you do, start out doing things right, and avoid the frustration/time/expense involved in relearning.

Learning to relax and developing comfortable and effective bowing technique were my most difficult problems. Some physical aspects of fiddling to a very long time to learn.

Endif - Posted - 12/21/2010:  17:34:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleflow

I read that there are only 12 notes in music ( ABCDEFG , and thier sharps or flats) to study and master. Doesn't make sense then to study and memorize how each note sounds before one studies, or practices songs, tunes, chords and other parts of a tune?. Any subject one wants to study has basics and fundamentas, and mastering and getting comfortable with this basics is the key before tackling the subject, and music should not be an exception. Any comment?.

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Perhaps I'm misreading your post, but the question sounds like you're talking about learning sequentially: first the music theory, and only then the music. But learning music requires balance. It's not a linear process, but a parallel one of training ears and hands and fingers at the same time. Learning some music theory, scales, arpeggios and exercises provides an excellent foundation. However, if we're talking about learning the basics first, there are other basics to learn such as left hand techniques, bowing techniques and patterns, intonation and rhythm, just to mention a few. It's good to work on each skill separately, but there also needs to be some integration of the skills as they are being mastered in parallel. Playing the music integrates all of the basic skills...which is another basic skill in itself. My 2-cents.

bsed - Posted - 12/21/2010:  17:55:15

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Memorizing pitches is not what I'd recommend for most students. I guess because I expect my students to be a lot like me, where memorizing all those tones is like trying to roll that proverbial huge boulder up a long hill. Part of that struggle is knowing what to do with the information at a seconds notice (or less). I'm just not that good of a musician. A lot of us aren't.

Instead, I think it far more important and practical to study the relationships between half-steps and whole steps in scales. If you can get that, there's no limit to what you can accomplish. It's why we study scales. And when you can make the connection and draw the link between scale and key, there isn't really a whole lot more music theory you need to know beyond that!

fiddleflow - Posted - 12/21/2010:  18:21:59

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Thanks, it seems whole steps, half steps, and learning the relationship between the notes might help.

oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/21/2010:  18:43:08

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Start with major scales, which are constructed from a particular asymmetrical arrangement of whole and half steps (w-w-h-w-w-w-h). Learn these in the simple and common keys used in fiddle music (C-G-D-A). Play patterns within the scales, for ex. notes 1-3-2-4-3-5-4-6-5-7-6-8(1)-7-9(2)-8(1). Concentrate on learning the sound of all the intervals contained within the scale, including the half and whole steps but also the larger ones between non-adjacent notes. As you learn to hear these, you'll be simultaneously learning to play in tune, and on your way to learning lots and lots of melodies that come from these major scales.

The notes are just the notes; it's how they relate to each other that matters.

OTJunky - Posted - 12/21/2010:  19:00:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldtimestrings

Start with major scales, which are constructed from a particular asymmetrical arrangement of whole and half steps (w-w-h-w-w-w-h). Learn these in the simple and common keys used in fiddle music (C-G-D-A). Play patterns within the scales, for ex. notes 1-3-2-4-3-5-4-6-5-7-6-8(1)-7-9(2)-8(1). Concentrate on learning the sound of all the intervals contained within the scale, including the half and whole steps but also the larger ones between non-adjacent notes. As you learn to hear these, you'll be simultaneously learning to play in tune, and on your way to learning lots and lots of melodies that come from these major scales.

The notes are just the notes; it's how they relate to each other that matters.

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This post and bsed's post are heading you in exactly the right direction.

In music, it's not the actual pitch of any note that matters when playing a melody. Instead it's the "interval" between any two successive notes - half step, whole step (second), third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, then the octave. In "standard" tuning your fiddles strings are tuned in intervals of a fifth. The first two notes of "Twinkle Twinkle Litte Start" are a fifth apart.

The interval relationships between notes are not only used to construct melody but also to construct chords. So, learning the recognize these "intervals" is really what you're after - and playing scales is one way to start learning them.

Of course, eventually the actual pitch does matter since that's what determines the "key" you're playing in and when you play with others, it's essential that you play in the same key as the other musicians. And on the fiddle some keys are more commonly used than others. But I'd say that learning to recognize the intervals between notes comes first and worrying about the actual pitches used for the intervals comes soon after that.

--OTJ

fiddleflow - Posted - 12/21/2010:  20:10:08

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Is it correct to say then , that the major scale is the " mother scale" of all, or most fiddle tunes ( I am mainly interested in OT) ?.

OTJunky - Posted - 12/22/2010:  04:05:28

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That's right - most but certainly not all.

Many tunes are based on "modal" scales - usually Mixolydian or Dorian. What we call a "major" scale today is also called "Ionian" mode.

--OTJ

bowbag - Posted - 12/22/2010:  05:55:59

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I think some classical teachers go the route of making you learn the various scales way before playing actual music. Doesn't seem like much fun to me though and that's the whole reason I play the fiddle. I always do scales before I play, every time. I usually focus on the ones in the tunes I'll be playing that day. Say maybe for around 5-10 minutes. Scales are cool and all but if that's all I did for the first year or so I proly would have quit playing long ago.

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/22/2010:  06:56:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky

That's right - most but certainly not all.

Many tunes are based on "modal" scales - usually Mixolydian or Dorian. What we call a "major" scale today is also called "Ionian" mode.

--OTJ

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BUT these listed scales are essentially the same notes as the major scale, just starting and ending on a different note. Playing the white keys on the piano will give you all of these modes - C to C is ionian, A to A is (oh sh*t, what's the minor key called?), G to G is Mixolydian.... but so what? Are you going to be a composer or a music teacher? If so, you'll need schoolin' anyway and they'll drill that stuff into your head, telling you to "follow the rules".
The major scale IS the mother of all scales. Try playing her starting on the 7th note and you get a crazy sounding mode not really suitable for any OT tunes.
Play that fiddle if you want to be an OT fiddler, 'flow, and learn how the notes sound in context so you can 'master' the beast.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/23/2010:  18:05:08

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Actually the chromatic scale is the "mother of all scales", but the major scale is her favorite child.