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Peghead - Posted - 10/22/2010: 11:33:15
If you're not familiar with the circle of 5ths, a great way to think of it is the tonal equalivent to the color wheel. Just as the colors change gradually one shade at a time as you go around the color wheel, so do the notes of the keys as you go around the circle. Adjacent keys on the circle differ by 1 note at a time in their respective scales. As you proceed clockwise to the next key one note gets raised (sharped) , if you go the other way, it gets lowered (flatted) - (and you start on the note of the new key.) Adjacent keys on the wheel are closely related, you could say they are 1st cousins. (embedded within each key are the various modes, you could say the modes are siblings because all their notes are identical -a different story) Any three adjacent keys on wheel comprise the basic 1,4,5 chord changes which we all know and love. CFG, GCD, DGA, ADE, etc.
Edited by - Peghead on 10/22/2010 12:16:45
drnathan747 - Posted - 10/22/2010: 11:53:27
What would be a good source to study if I wanted to find out more about the circle of 5ths?
Thanks.
Peghead - Posted - 10/22/2010: 12:03:31
If you're interested in music theory download a chart (there are tons, use a plain one ) and get familiar with it. Practice the how and why of the major scales and arpeggios, they are a good intro into theory for fiddlers.
Edited by - Peghead on 10/22/2010 12:04:35
mswlogo - Posted - 10/22/2010: 12:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by drnathan747
What would be a good source to study if I wanted to find out more about the circle of 5ths?
Thanks.
Gordon Stobes Scales and Arpegio CD and Book covers it nicely. Something that is nice to have anyway.
But here is one link pulled out of a random search
folkblues.com/theory/circle_5ths_text.htmOne thing not mentioned that should be obvious but might not be for a begginer. Note that the Fiddle is tuned in 5ths GDAE (and that corresponds to going around the circle of 5ths).
Take a guess what the lower 5th string is on a 5 String Fiddle?
Edited by - mswlogo on 10/22/2010 12:41:51
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/22/2010: 12:34:05
I agree... it's really the musician's color wheel... I've used the same analogy many times. The point of both the color wheel and the circle of fifths is to show relationships...how colors are affected by other colors in certain settings... how tones are affected by other tones.
You can see the entire twelve tone, equal temperament setup in the circle of fifths... Five Country Gentlemen Drove Along East Broadway... Country Gentlemen Drove Along being the fifths that cello and viola tune to, and Drove Along East Broadway being the fifths violin is tuned to ... This is the order of the sharps, and backwards the order of the flats, for people who are reading music... even if you aren't reading, which i don't do on fiddle, guitar, banjo, etc., at all... this is still helpful info... you can see the spots on the circle for relationships to build various chords or see how other tunings work, etc. You can study it and see a lot of how keys work and are related, i.e. relative minors... if you're in C major, the minor related to that key would be A, etc. There's lots of stuff in there... stuff that musicians noticed in the music first, and then cleverly designed the circle to reveal the tonal relationhips.... just as the color wheel was stuff about colors artists noticed in the world and in painting, and then cleverly came up with the color wheel to show the relationships that already exist. So, the circle of fifths isn't rules, just observations about twelve-tone music.
ooops....that should be Gentlemen Drove Along East... for violin standard tuning.... of course! 
That little circle of fifths sentence wasn't so helpful to me, was it????
Here's a good explanation of one way the circle of fifths can be helpful I found really fast on a ukelele web site... tikiking.com/tools.html
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 10/22/2010 12:40:29
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/22/2010: 20:05:26
The Circle of 5ths should be turned around and called the Circle of 4ths, because that's the way music flows -- to the 4 chord, not to the 5 chord. Play these chords one after another: E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb,etc. It feels like walking down steps. That's natural musical gravity. Turn it around : C-G-D-A-E-B,etc. It feels like walking up a flight of stairs backwards. Music naturally flows the other way, to the 4th.
If you want to make the Circle of 5th more practical and useful for chord progressions and improvising, turn it around. Put the flats on the right, with the F at 1 o'clock. That way the natural flow will be clockwise and make more sense, imo.
mswlogo - Posted - 10/22/2010: 20:36:36
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
The Circle of 5ths should be turned around and called the Circle of 4ths, because that's the way music flows -- to the 4 chord, not to the 5 chord. Play these chords one after another: E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb,etc. It feels like walking down steps. That's natural musical gravity. Turn it around : C-G-D-A-E-B,etc. It feels like walking up a flight of stairs backwards. Music naturally flows the other way, to the 4th.
If you want to make the Circle of 5th more practical and useful for chord progressions and improvising, turn it around. Put the flats on the right, with the F at 1 o'clock. That way the natural flow will be clockwise and make more sense, imo.
You're making my head hurt. :)
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/23/2010: 06:09:52
Well, like the colorwheel, it's a circle, so entirely reversible. Either way, you can see on the chart how keys, scales, and tones are related to each other.
mudbug - Posted - 10/23/2010: 11:06:09
I've read that certain people actually "see" different colors when different notes are sounded. I don't know what they're talking about, but I do know that different notes taste different.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/23/2010: 12:48:41
Ha ha.... never heard anybody else say that before! I "taste" music and tones, harmonies, etc. too, but most people think I'm just looney. I've heard, too, that some people see colors with tones... I never actually met anybody who said they did it, though.
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 10/23/2010: 16:00:21
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
The Circle of 5ths should be turned around and called the Circle of 4ths, because that's the way music flows -- to the 4 chord, not to the 5 chord. Play these chords one after another: E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb,etc. It feels like walking down steps. That's natural musical gravity. Turn it around : C-G-D-A-E-B,etc. It feels like walking up a flight of stairs backwards. Music naturally flows the other way, to the 4th.
If you want to make the Circle of 5th more practical and useful for chord progressions and improvising, turn it around. Put the flats on the right, with the F at 1 o'clock. That way the natural flow will be clockwise and make more sense, imo.
In your first example E-A-D-G-C-F etc. the roots flow down by a fifth, if you are going to be consistent in your image of downward resolution.
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/23/2010: 18:25:52
[quote]Originally posted by Leon Grizzard
In your first example E-A-D-G-C-F etc. the roots flow down by a fifth, if you are going to be consistent in your image of downward resolution.
[/quote ]Really? I think that's down by a 4th. Tension releases to the 4 chord. I guess I'm using the Nashville Number System more than thinking in intervals. When you are in the key of E and change to an A chord, you've gone to the 4 chord of E, and so one. From E to A is a 4th in my way of thinking, but I may wrong.
When you play a 7th chord, say a C7, the chord that sounds most right and releases the tension caused by the 7th chord is the 4 chord of C, which is F. Jazz and western music, even a lot of Classical, is based on this change. It's like musical gravity. If you want to learn to improvise, practices phrases that go from a major chord to its 7th chord, then to the 4 chord of the original chord. From G to G7 to C to C7 to F to F7 to Bb, etc. Get to where you can navigate through all 12 keys and you're really getting somewhere. Fiddlers should probably start in B and go to Bb. Like this: B-E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb. That's really all the fiddle keys.
So many songs, especially with jazz chord changes, flow this way. All the IIm-V7-I changes, all the VI-II-V-I changes, from Autumn Leaves to Rawhide. The wheel is useful but it just makes more sense to me with the flats on the right.
FiddlerJones - Posted - 10/24/2010: 04:59:31
I sometimes think of my fingerboard as a "circle of fifths calculator," because the strings are tuned in fifths. If you imagine a C string beneath the G string (as you have on a viola or cello), you have C, G, D, A, E, the first five notes of the circle. Then imagine the first-finger E on the D string, and the adjacent note on the A string is B natural; then F sharp is adjacent on the E string. Jumping back to the D string, the F sharp is adjacent to C sharp on the A string, which is adjacent to the G sharp on the E string. You keep doing this until you're at F natural on the D string, which is adjacent to C natural on the A string--the completion of the circle.
Okay, it may sound convoluted, but it really helps on those occasions when I'm playing with a guitarist who's capoed up to some odd key, I'm playing in a closed position, and I must find the dominant and subdominant on the fly.
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 10/25/2010: 17:54:23
[quote]Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
"Really? I think that's down by a 4th. Tension releases to the 4 chord. I guess I'm using the Nashville Number System more than thinking in intervals. When you are in the key of E and change to an A chord, you've gone to the 4 chord of E, and so one. From E to A is a 4th in my way of thinking, but I may wrong."
What I am saying is you are mixing your images. You speak of the feeling of resolution from E to A as being like going down stairs, jut if you are going down, E to A is down a fifth. Up a fourth, but down a fifth. And that is way the movement is usually described, as V to I. If you think of it as I to IV, that implies you will return to I at some point, whereas with V to I, you have reached resolution.
Edited by - Leon Grizzard on 10/25/2010 18:56:30
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/26/2010: 06:56:44
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Grizzard
What I am saying is you are mixing your images. You speak of the feeling of resolution from E to A as being like going down stairs, jut if you are going down, E to A is down a fifth. Up a fourth, but down a fifth. And that is way the movement is usually described, as V to I. If you think of it as I to IV, that implies you will return to I at some point, whereas with V to I, you have reached resolution.
Ha. I see what you did there. The way I think of it V to I is the same as I to IV where movement is concerned. I know that a true V chord is going to have more tension creating variations than a I chord, but that's not what I'm talking about. I think of it as I to IV, but when I get to IV, it becomes the new I. In music terms it may be "up" a 4th, but the feeling to me is tension resolving, and a stepping down. I may be mixing the terms but not my images because I don't think of moving to the IV chord as moving up. Perhaps the original terminology, "up a 4th", is a little misleading. In the beginning many of the terms are chosen arbitrarily anyway.
All I'm saying is that chord progressions in general have a counter-clockwise movement to them in the Circle of 5ths. Turn the Circle around and you've got a clockwise movement, which is more pleasing to my eye and easier for me to picture.
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 10/27/2010: 11:56:24
Yeah, we're just talking images and names.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/27/2010: 15:18:03
That progression referred to is often called a "ascending ladder of fifths". It's a bit different concept than "circle of fifths". The reason it is fifths not fourths has to do with what was mentioned, because it's really a ladder of dominant 7ths (V7). The seventh added to the V plays an important role of leading into the next chord. This helps explain why it's often a II7 not a ii; and extended a VI7 rather than a vi; and a III7 rather than a iii.
The circle of fifths makes a nice little visual chart, but IMO much overrated in it's use in music theory.
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 10/28/2010: 04:57:24
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
That progression referred to is often called a "ascending ladder of fifths". It's a bit different concept than "circle of fifths". The reason it is fifths not fourths has to do with what was mentioned, because it's really a ladder of dominant 7ths (V7). The seventh added to the V plays an important role of leading into the next chord. This helps explain why it's often a II7 not a ii; and extended a VI7 rather than a vi; and a III7 rather than a iii.
The circle of fifths makes a nice little visual chart, but IMO much overrated in it's use in music theory.
I agree; the more practical concept is knowing the cycle of fifths as it appears in a series of dominant chords, like in Swing tunes.
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/28/2010: 20:43:02
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Grizzard
I agree; the more practical concept is knowing the cycle of fifths as it appears in a series of dominant chords, like in Swing tunes.
Isn't that sort of what the Circle of 5ths (or 4ths) teaches you? I already know my relative minors the number of sharps/flats in each key. So the "cycle of fifths" (or 4ths)
is what I take from the Circle.
Leon Grizzard - Posted - 10/29/2010: 12:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Grizzard
I agree; the more practical concept is knowing the cycle of fifths as it appears in a series of dominant chords, like in Swing tunes.
Isn't that sort of what the Circle of 5ths (or 4ths) teaches you? I already know my relative minors the number of sharps/flats in each key. So the "cycle of fifths" (or 4ths) is what I take from the Circle.
I guess I associate, perhaps wrongly, the cycle of fifths with learning keys or key signatures which does not seem to be of great everyday practical value like knowing the related knowledge of being able to navigate through a cycle of dominant chords.
Edited by - Leon Grizzard on 10/29/2010 14:50:01
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/30/2010: 08:21:31
There is a thing that guitarists look at sometimes, called the CAGED something or other system... as you might notice by this point, I'm not highly familiar with it, but have quickly looked at writings about it on the net, several years back.
I think on guitar it works something like this: Play a C shape-chord and then move up the frets beginning with the highest note, to get to an A-shaped chord (in C, these all SOUND as different inversions of C chords, but use the shapes of the other chords)... then on up to G shape, on up the frets to E shape and then to D shape, for the highest Inversion, highest up the fretboard of that chord. I'm not sure I fully understand the significance, except for guitarists (which I have been for almost 50 years now) to get to know all types of common chords, etc. all up the neck.. but I did notice that this does seem to have some consistency with Circle of Fifths... in that you're going around ... C... then A, which on the circle of fifths and in real life, LOL is C's relative minor... G, which comes next in the fifths, and then E, G's relative minor, the D... the next fifth... there is always this same consistency as to how tones in the 12 tone system western music has relied on for a long time, how they are related to one another in all sorts of ways... and that, once again, we can see the circle of fifths is more an observation, rather than suggested "rules"... an observation as to how tones affect one another in the 12 tone system. It's really amazng... just like the color wheel... what a color does in relation to other colors is amazing too... my friend back inthe mountains who was a portrait artist always talked about this... how things as seemingly blatant as RED in a painting might not be very red at all in the context of the painting, because of relationships between what other colors are where... it's all very interesting... many examples all over.
transplant - Posted - 10/30/2010: 09:49:55
OK, you got me going. For all the following bla bla bla, may I please be forgiven...
A friend once introduced me to the "classical realism" school of painters who follow in the footsteps of Ives Gammell who, in turn, followed in the lineage of French academic painters such as Gérôme and David. I confess I am not a huge fan of Gammell's painting, but a fellow who had met him said that he used to tell his students how so much of painting was about "dis to dat" or the way color, mass, line, what ever, related to its surroundings.
Never mind reading all that nonsense, here it is: so much of everything is about context.
If you want to see my take on the colors of the circle of fifths, check this out, which is based on something I put together in a feverish moment:
If anybody says "huh?" I will happily type a whole boatload of words, which may or may not explain it all.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/30/2010: 10:37:05
I only wish I knew more about color... since I don't, I'll just ignorantly admire your chart!
rastewart - Posted - 10/30/2010: 11:20:09
Huh? (Couldn't resist.)
I'm ignorantly admiring as well, while wondering if I haven't somehow slipped back 40-odd years into the past. 
Meaning, it's far out.
~Rich
transplant - Posted - 10/30/2010: 11:28:37
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I only wish I knew more about color...
I wish I knew more about it too. One thing to carry away from the chart is that if you pick seven neighboring swatches, they can more or less go together as a harmonious whole. Those seven colors might represent a diatonic scale-- can be any of the seven (Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian or Locrian) modes, although Ionian major is implied by the background colors of those little squares.
I did that chart one time when I was home sick from the day job, feverish and probably a little bit delirious. I spent a fair amount of time tweaking the colors so that each pair on opposite sides of the circle worked as "opposite" colors, the way they showed up on my screen.
@Rich-- I was in my late teens in the late sixties, and that's all I have to say about that.
Edited by - transplant on 10/30/2010 11:31:53
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/30/2010: 17:37:37
LOL... well it's impressive!
Bart - Posted - 10/31/2010: 11:11:30
I want to thank everyone for posting the links in this thread. I get a little boggled reading about these things in long stretches of words (LOL, I think you call that paragraphs). The combination of links here with the visual representations and the very simple explanations (esp. on the website for the Bass), is helping me come back and understand your discussion better.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/02/2010: 11:13:11
I might be slow, but it just dawned on me that the reason the unfretted instruments are tuned to perfect fifths ... I mean... I think there must be something brilliant to that arrangement that has somehow slipped right past me!!!! Except for basses, of course, which are like big, blownup backwards fiddles... in reality.
transplant - Posted - 11/03/2010: 06:47:14
I have no idea how it started being done that way nor why, but one thing it does is give you an automatic final cadence from one skinny string to the next fatter one. So many tunes end with a five, one (V- I).
Another thing it gives me is handfuls of notes covering the fingerboard without overlap (in closed positions, that is, where you don't use open strings. Open keys in first position have just enough overlap to be interesting.) Makes sense to me, at least.
edkarch - Posted - 11/03/2010: 11:17:04
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I might be slow, but it just dawned on me that the reason the unfretted instruments are tuned to perfect fifths ... I mean... I think there must be something brilliant to that arrangement that has somehow slipped right past me!!!! Except for basses, of course, which are like big, blownup backwards fiddles... in reality.
If looking at the front of the fiddle going left to right (clockwise) it is tuned in 5ths. GDAE. Looking at the bass going from right to left (counter clockwise) it is tuned in 4ths GDAE. I just dreamed this in my sleep.
Edited by - edkarch on 11/03/2010 11:17:55
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/04/2010: 18:57:17
I'm trying to make some connections similar to the CAGED concept in guitar tuning... which is, of course, EADGBE, sorta like an upsidedown, backwards fiddle or little bitty base for the first four, and then that B in there to shake things up, follwed by another E... anyway, the connections between how similar fingering work out in different keys on guitar is what that CAGED concept is all about.... as I said somewhere on up earliier, I think, I don't fully know what CAGED is for gutiarists, but just have my own idea about it because of decades of playing and familiarity with the guitar fretboard... I've been looking for similar stuff on my fiddle neck recently... then got the Jim Van Cleves video, which explores very similar stuff to what I was sorta getting into... so... that's where my thinking is right now.
Peghead - Posted - 11/05/2010: 13:25:50
quote:
I don't fully know what CAGED is for gutiarists, but just have my own idea about it because of decades of playing and familiarity with the guitar fretboard...
Hi Peggy, I'll explain it as briefly as I can. CAGED is the way to visualize how guitar voicings (or positions)
for the same chord, change as you proceed up or down the neck. It's extreamly valuable to be able to visualize this particularly if you want to use the capo to find different voicings in the same key or if you know a song in a particular pattern but want to play along in a different key. Here's how it works - (It's a loop but we'll start at the first one) Play a normal C chord. It
looks like a C. Put a capo on the 3rd fret, and the next C (voicing)
looks like an A. Move the capo up 2 frets and the next C will
look like a G. Move the capo up 3, the next C
looks like an E. As you proceed up the neck these are all C chords, but the voicings are changing, you are adding the next higher 1,3, or 5 note and loosing the lowest one. Lets do another. (Take the capo off) Play a big fat E chord. Now put the capo on the second fret, the next E will
look like a D. Move the capo up 2 and the next E will
look like a C. True, it's a circle because it loops, (start anywhere) but it's not a musical circle by any means (like the circle of 5ths) it's strictly a mechancal tool, an observation really, a memory aid for the way the chord positions change and evolve. It's specific to the guitar (in standard tuning). It's a great thing for guitar improvisors to see the positions stretched like a map in front of, and behind where ever you happen to be at the time. If you're a visual person you can see your moves ahead of time like a chess player. Everyone is different, some feel the positions in their hands, some have fingers that just go to what they hear in their heads.
Edited by - Peghead on 11/18/2010 05:42:45
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/05/2010: 18:30:34
Thanks for that explanation... you did a better job explaining that what I'd seen on the net... LOL... makes sense to me!
wilford - Posted - 11/17/2010: 13:19:14
quote:
Originally posted by Peghead
quote:
I don't fully know what CAGED is for gutiarists, but just have my own idea about it because of decades of playing and familiarity with the guitar fretboard...
Hi Peggy, I'll explain it as briefly as I can. CAGED is the way to visualize how guitar voicings (or positions) for the same chord, change as you proceed up or down the neck. It's extreamly valuable to be able to visualize this particularly if you want to use the capo to find different voicings in the same key or if you know a song in a particular pattern but want to play along in a different key. Here's how it works - (It's a loop but we'll start at the first one) Play a normal C chord. It looks like a C. Put a capo on the 3rd fret, and the next C (voicing) looks like an A. Move the capo up 2 frets and the next C will look like a G. Move the capo up 2, the next C looks like an E. As you proceed up the neck these are all C chords, but the voicings are changing, you are adding the next higher 1,3, or 5 note and loosing the lowest one. Lets do another. (Take the capo off) Play a big fat E chord. Now put the capo on the second fret, the next E will look like a D. Move the capo up 2 and the next E will look like a C. True, it's a circle because it loops, (start anywhere) but it's not a musical circle by any means (like the circle of 5ths) it's strictly a mechancal tool, an observation really, a memory aid for the way the chord positions change and evolve. It's specific to the guitar (in standard tuning). It's a great thing for guitar improvisors to see the positions stretched like a map in front of, and behind where ever you happen to be at the time. If you're a visual person you can see your moves ahead of time like a chess player. Everyone is different, some feel the positions in their hands, some have fingers that just go to what they hear in their heads.
You might mean 3 instead of 2 here.
Peghead - Posted - 11/18/2010: 05:44:19
Thanks, I was doing them in my head. (I corrected the text)
tboudre - Posted - 12/14/2010: 17:49:16
Hi Bart:
I'd be interested in those too. After you get them can you post a review please and let us know what you think of them.
Thanks,
Theresa
Bart - Posted - 12/23/2010: 18:45:22
quote:
Originally posted by tboudre
Hi Bart:
I'd be interested in those too. After you get them can you post a review please and let us know what you think of them.
Thanks,
Theresa
I'll be happy to. I had hoped they'd be here by now, but we'll see. I might need a reminder to do this, frankly, so if another few weeks go by and you are still curious, don't hesitate to send a message and remind me.
