leemysliwiec - Posted - 09/30/2010:  15:21:52

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I Posted this last year and a lot of people liked it . I hope you don't mind that I post it again.

Ways to tell if your timing is bad.

I hope you will find this funny but important!!!

Musical Timing.... 49ways to tell if your timing is bad

Most of this has is based upon my personal experiences. Lee Mysliwiec



I had the pleasure of jamming with the famous old time musician, Melvin Wine, some time ago. Someone in the jam session asked him, “What kind of musicians to you like to play with, Melvin?”. He answered, “ I’ll play with anybody as long as they are in tune and on time!”. (of course, I was neither!!)





1. If someone gives you a metronome as a gift, your timing may be bad.

2. If you own a metronome and it keeps speeding up and slowing down, your timing may be bad. (no, its not the battery)

3. If your friends get together to play music and don't invite you, your timing may be bad.

4. If you ever play with a banjo player, your timing IS bad, and your reputation, too.

5. If you are playing next to a good musician and he turns away from you, your timing may be bad.

6. If you think that the word “metronome” refers to bus transportation, your timing be bad.

7. If you are playing next to a good musician and he turns toward you and taps his foot loudly, your timing may be bad.

8. If you are asked to play a tune solo and other musicians roll their eyes, your timing may be bad.

9. If you don’t even know what a metronome is, your timing……..

10. If you wonder why some musicians progress faster than you, your timing may be bad.

11. If you think you don’t need a metronome, your timing may be bad.

12. If, when you play, your dog howls, the cat hides and your partner says, “Honey do you have to?”, your timing may be bad.

13. If someone asks to borrow your metronome and you can’t find it….guess what

14. If the speed at which you play a tune unintentionally increases, your timing may be bad.

15. If you are really going-at-it in a jam session and the jam leader starts giving you dirty looks, your timing may be bad.

16. If you can’t tap your foot while playing, your timing may be bad.

17. If you CAN tap your foot while playing but stop tapping while playing some parts, your timing may be bad.

18. If you don’t play along with CDs, live musicians or a metronome, your timing may be bad.

19. If you think that the word metronome is spelled metro-gnome, and is 12 inches tall, has a beard and eats Sushi, while wearing designer pants and living in New York City, your timing may be bad.

20. If your metronome is gathering dust, your timing may be bad.

21. If there are occasions when the other musicians stop playing and just sit and stare at you, it probably isn’t because you are playing so amazingly well, but rather that your timing is bad.

22. If you think your timing is better after a few beers, your timing may be bad.

23. If your timing IS better after a few beers, your timing, generally is bad.

24. If, when playing on your porch during clement weather, you often hear the neighbors slam their doors and windows, you may have bad timing.

25. If your partner starts slamming doors while you are playing, your timing might be bad.

26. If you are afraid to hear yourself on a recording, your timing may be bad.

27. If your friends politely suggest that you work on your timing, your timing may be bad.

28. If people listening to you say, “Wow, that was good. You should take some lessons”, your timing………..

29. If, while playing, you don’t feel “tight” with other musicians, your timing may be bad.

30. If, while playing with others, you listen to yourself but don’t listen to the other musicians, your timing………………

31. If you don’t use your metronome because you say you can’t hear it, your…….

32. If you have ever thought about getting a metronome, your timing may be bad.

33. If you make every excuse in the world to not use your metronome, your timing may be bad.

34. If you are an experienced musician, your timing may be bad.

35. If you don’t intentionally work on timing, your timing may be bad.

36. If you have been humbled by your metronome, your timing may be bad.

37. If you can relate to some of these observations but have not dealt with them, you timing may be bad.

38. If you don’t think you are a good musician, your timing may be bad.

39. If you have just finished playing your latest hot tune and an experienced musician leans over and whispers in your ear “You’ll have to work on that one a little.” your timing may be bad.

40. If, while playing, someone in your musical group yells out “SLOW DOWN!!!”, your timing may be bad.

41. If you try to slow down but CAN’T, your timing is bad.

42. If you read the first half of this list faster than you read the last half, your…..tim….ing…..may ……be…..bad.

43. If you play with musicians who don’t work on timing, your timing may be bad.

44. If you CAN”T play a tune slowly, your timing may be bad.

45. If your timing is at all an issue, your timing might be bad.

46. If you sitting next to a good musician and he asks you to point your fiddle away from him…….

47. If you own a metronome and never use it, your timing may be bad.

48. If you are a beginner , you timing may be bad.

49. If people use this old joke on you: "Hey, what did you do with the money?" "What money?" "The money your parents gave you for music lessons!!!", you may have bad timing.



Work on your timing.

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Edited by - leemysliwiec on 11/28/2010 18:02:18

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/01/2010:  10:35:24

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... LOL... most of 'em apply to me!

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/01/2010:  13:00:02

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RE: # 31
If you play with the metronome and can't hear it, chances are you are LOCKED IN with it.
When you can hear it is when you are off.

This all applies to our bass player. The stares the tapping of the foot AT him...

mswlogo - Posted - 10/01/2010:  13:28:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

RE: # 31
If you play with the metronome and can't hear it, chances are you are LOCKED IN with it.
When you can hear it is when you are off.

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Good point. When I play along with a melody and can't hear it, I know I'm "LOCKED IN".

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/01/2010:  13:42:35

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You are right Chickenman. I have experienced that while playing the fiddle with another person playing the same version as mine. Even with different instruments, magic is performed when they really listen to each other.

bsed - Posted - 10/01/2010:  17:40:59

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I guess if someone suggests you could benefit from a metronome, and you point at your right foot and say "This is my metronome", your timing....
(I've never done that, have I?)

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Edited by - bsed on 10/01/2010 17:43:00

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/01/2010:  18:06:08

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Persons with bad timing will keep tapping their foot throughout a tune and still speed up!!!!
Thesteady tapping foot may be one of the RESULTS of good timing, but is not the CAUSE of it. But then, I could be wrong.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/01/2010:  20:45:19

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Timing issues. There are so many and almost everyone has them. Our mandolin player likes to play out of the front of the beat, which is fine if everything else remained the same, but the bass player usually thinks he needs to speed up. This only makes the mandolin player want to play even faster to stay on the front of the beat.

If you want to see how bad your band's timing is, try and get the whole band to play with a metronome on a song. Even if you can find a system loud enough for all to hear it (I've used the pendulum type that's easy to see), it's still REALLY difficult. Of course this just proves how bad your timing is, and how poorly everyone really listens to the timing.

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/01/2010:  22:40:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo

Timing issues. There are so many and almost everyone has them. Our mandolin player likes to play out of the front of the beat, which is fine if everything else remained the same, but the bass player usually thinks he needs to speed up. This only makes the mandolin player want to play even faster to stay on the front of the beat.

If you want to see how bad your band's timing is, try and get the whole band to play with a metronome on a song. Even if you can find a system loud enough for all to hear it (I've used the pendulum type that's easy to see), it's still REALLY difficult. Of course this just proves how bad your timing is, and how poorly everyone really listens to the timing.

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I call it 'the sympathetic shift' which gets the response, "I wasn't speeding up, he was!"
And so were you.

George Shepherd - Posted - 10/02/2010:  13:12:37

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I did think it was funny until I realised much of it applied to me. Nah, I still think it's funny

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/02/2010:  20:49:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo

Timing issues. There are so many and almost everyone has them. Our mandolin player likes to play out of the front of the beat, which is fine if everything else remained the same, but the bass player usually thinks he needs to speed up. This only makes the mandolin player want to play even faster to stay on the front of the beat.

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This is one of the reasons why I don't use bowings that lead the beat very often.
I love hearing someone like Tommy Jarrell do them it with solid backup players (who DON'T speed up)
but I find solid unambiguous downbeat accents are a whole lot safer with the majority of musicians.
It's also one of the reasons I love bowing patterns that start with a single note downstroke, often followed by a slur... it makes the downbeat VERY difficult to miss!!!

Success in a band or a jam often means making the rhythm obvious for your most rhythmically challenged player!!!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/02/2010:  21:35:54

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I'm not so sure metronomes are the answer.
I think they invite a mechanical approach to rhythm, where everything is too even and mathematical.
Genuine rhythms in real music just aren't like that.
I think the true goal is some sort of GROOVE.... it's kind of hard to describe, but if you've heard
much of it, you know it when you hear it.... it makes the rhythm compelling somehow.

If the metronome is only beating once per measure, there's nothing telling you how to divide up the rest of the space, rhythm-wise.
And the conflict may be coming in on how to divide the rest of the measure up.
And if it's beating more frequently, it's locking you into a more mechanical, rigid concept of rhythm, that may be unnatural for everyone in the band.

Bands in music genres that don't usually have a rhythm instrument have a tough row to hoe.
I think such bands need to become aware of who is rhythmically the most solid, and cue off of that player.
In an Old Time band, it could be the fiddler, or it could be the banjo player, or it could be the guitarist.
Whoever that person is, needs to be treated like a good drummer gets treated in genres that DO use a drummer-
that person needs to be considered the "groovemeister", the rhythmic leader, and the rest of the band needs to get their rhythmic cues
off of that person. At the very least, if you can get the two rhythmically strongest players playing together, the rest of the band or jam session will usually fall in line. For that reason, in any music group I'm in, I listen for the player with the strongest rhythm, and try to become rhythmically one with them, and reinforce what they're doing. If it's a song, you pretty much have to cue off of the singer.

Old Time and Bluegrass are also genres that use a different backup rhythmic from a lot of contemporary music.
It might be useful to listen to some genres that use similar rhythms, but often have percussion:
Fife and drum music, Scottish bagpipe bands, polka dance bands, mariachi and klezmer music all use similar rhythms, at least for 4/4 and 2/4 stuff (and I'm not talking about strathspeys in the Scottish stuff!)

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 10/03/2010:  12:15:35

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Here's one I've gotten and wondered about.
If you go to a jam, and folks keep giving you suggestions of other jams to go to, Your timing may be bad.
In my case, timing is just the tip of the iceberg.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/03/2010:  13:34:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by Andah1andah2

Here's one I've gotten and wondered about.
If you go to a jam, and folks keep giving you suggestions of other jams to go to, Your timing may be bad.
In my case, timing is just the tip of the iceberg.

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That is a good one Andah1andah2. I'll add it to the list and remove one of the metronome ones. In the future I'll not indicate that these all happened to me but all could be true.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/03/2010:  13:39:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I'm not so sure metronomes are the answer.
I think they invite a mechanical approach to rhythm, where everything is too even and mathematical.
Genuine rhythms in real music just aren't like that.
I think the true goal is some sort of GROOVE.... it's kind of hard to describe, but if you've heard
much of it, you know it when you hear it.... it makes the rhythm compelling somehow.

If the metronome is only beating once per measure, there's nothing telling you how to divide up the rest of the space, rhythm-wise.
And the conflict may be coming in on how to divide the rest of the measure up.
And if it's beating more frequently, it's locking you into a more mechanical, rigid concept of rhythm, that may be unnatural for everyone in the band.

Bands in music genres that don't usually have a rhythm instrument have a tough row to hoe.
I think such bands need to become aware of who is rhythmically the most solid, and cue off of that player.
In an Old Time band, it could be the fiddler, or it could be the banjo player, or it could be the guitarist.
Whoever that person is, needs to be treated like a good drummer gets treated in genres that DO use a drummer-
that person needs to be considered the "groovemeister", the rhythmic leader, and the rest of the band needs to get their rhythmic cues
off of that person. At the very least, if you can get the two rhythmically strongest players playing together, the rest of the band or jam session will usually fall in line. For that reason, in any music group I'm in, I listen for the player with the strongest rhythm, and try to become rhythmically one with them, and reinforce what they're doing. If it's a song, you pretty much have to cue off of the singer.

Old Time and Bluegrass are also genres that use a different backup rhythmic from a lot of contemporary music.
It might be useful to listen to some genres that use similar rhythms, but often have percussion:
Fife and drum music, Scottish bagpipe bands, polka dance bands, mariachi and klezmer music all use similar rhythms, at least for 4/4 and 2/4 stuff (and I'm not talking about strathspeys in the Scottish stuff!)

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Fiddlepogo, I don't mean to imply by the original post that I think one needs a metronome to have good timing. The post relates to MY experience. There are plenty of ways to develop good timing and I only hope to bring it to the attention of musicians who need a little boost in that direction. Hopefully, with humor!
While thinking about this response it occurred to me to point out to readers that if their timing is a problem, THAT THEIR MUSICIAN FRIENDS ALREADY KNOW IT, (unless they have timing problem also. ) LEE

bsed - Posted - 10/03/2010:  17:49:48

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A comment on the idea of Groove, mentioned by Michael. I know what it means to me, and it's not something that lends itself to verbal description very easily. But to me, Groove is helped significantly along when there is a good "bottom end". This can be provided by any good rhythm player, particularly a good bass line or guitar backing rhythm. When I hear that, I feel all's well with the world and I can play just about anything (not that I really could, you understand, I just feel that I could).

bsed - Posted - 10/03/2010:  17:57:55

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And maybe metronomes aren't desirable to always have around. Novice players and advanced players alike (I include myself here, obviously) need to learn to use them, but then should graduate to playing with other people who have a good sense of timing. That's the goal, anyhow. I played for something like my first 6+ years before I came out of my own little room. And I got told my timing was pretty awful. (Of course, I didn't agree at the time, but eventually I was made to see how right they were)!

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/04/2010:  05:30:12

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My favorite use of the metronome is when learning a new tune, especially a "notey" one. After feeling comfortable with my version, I play it slowly along with the metronome and look for those parts of the tune where I may be speeding up or slowing down. Sometimes it is just one measure, but that is enough to throw off other musicians in the group. Although I understand what others are saying about the metronome use, my personal rule is still, "If I can't play the new tune along with my metronome, then I still don't know it." Once I get the timing right everything else falls in place. It is amazing how much easier a tune is to play if the timing is correct. Like I said in an earlier post, "By the time I see that my timing is OFF, others will have already noticed. "

Peghead - Posted - 10/04/2010:  09:02:19

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The key is to be able to play with a metronome, not like a metronome.

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Edited by - Peghead on 10/04/2010 10:06:00

hardykefes - Posted - 10/04/2010:  10:14:49

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....if you are one of the musicians who keeps defending his method of learning without any tools like metronome or tuner....your timing might be bad...and may be your intonation too.

I find that using these aids is a sign of being more professional and being able to deal with the truth.
I love to bend timing, in classical music it is what we do. But not before I can't play a piece with correct timing.
Using these tools does not make our music robot-like neither does it downgrade us to computer.
It is merely to get the foundation right. Every piece we play has a few notes or measures we tend to speed up or slow down depending on our emotions and our perception.
It is to identify these parts and work on it. Once we have it all "under control" we don't need the metronome anymore .... for this piece.

I love to use it every time when I learn a new tune..... because I know, my timing will be bad if I don't. :-)

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/04/2010:  14:11:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by hardykefes

....if you are one of the musicians who keeps defending his method of learning without any tools like metronome or tuner....your timing might be bad...and may be your intonation too.

I find that using these aids is a sign of being more professional and being able to deal with the truth.
I love to bend timing, in classical music it is what we do. But not before I can't play a piece with correct timing.
Using these tools does not make our music robot-like neither does it downgrade us to computer.
It is merely to get the foundation right. Every piece we play has a few notes or measures we tend to speed up or slow down depending on our emotions and our perception.
It is to identify these parts and work on it. Once we have it all "under control" we don't need the metronome anymore .... for this piece.

I love to use it every time when I learn a new tune..... because I know, my timing will be bad if I don't. :-)

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Your "defending your method" comment is great. I think I'll add it to the list. Thanks. LEE

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/04/2010:  14:42:13

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If you are not good at picking up subtle hints others give you and you want to know how good your ability to keep a steady tempo is, there are some more direct ways.

The problem with using a metronome, drum machine, Band-in-a-box, recording, ASD, or even playing with other really tight live musicians - they are external, and as long as it keeps playing you can make minute recalibration adjustments to keep on time. They might even be subconscious, you don't realize you are correcting yourself. One can be slightly off and not notice it. Doesn't really tell how good your ability to maintain tempo is.

What you need to use to check is an external that will establish a tempo, and then not be there (silent) for a few beats/measures, and then reappear on-beat. When it stops you have only your internal sense to keep you going, no reference to make that minute correction. If you have good internal you will be right on when it starts up again.

An simple device is

bestdrumtrainer.com/tt/

What it does is play the metronome for a bunch of measures (user defined) and then stops playing for a certain number of measures (also user defined) and then starts up again right on the one beat.

Another approach is using visual rather than aural. Where you can see the reference (like a flashing light), close your eyes to it for a measure, then open them.

Some folks have never learned to play along with, or just can't stand the stereotypical metronome click. Quite understandable - a metronome does not provide rhythm. There are alternatives.

Many drum machine and backup software allow you to compose a larger scheme to have silent measures. There are some other useful tricks with a drum machine.

Then there's the old fashioned ways. Play along with a recording, walk out of ear range, and walk back. Use an assistant to just mute and unmute the sound.

If you can't do this, this is probably what you need to work on the most. You have to figure out what' preventing you, and there are many reasons. There are other methods (IMO better) other than the old advice of just "practice with a metronome".

If you can do this, it's just the start, that's not all there is to it when it comes to timing and playing with others. The other part has to do with what some others mentioned in posts above - the communication and perception. But that's another post.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/04/2010:  16:35:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by hardykefes

....if you are one of the musicians who keeps defending his method of learning without any tools like metronome or tuner....your timing might be bad...and may be your intonation too.

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Eh... might be... but I don't think so from the reactions I get.
(btw... I do use a tuner to tune usually... but drones are a much better way to check your intonation)

Alaska fiddler really makes the point... rhythm needs to be internalized...
in effect, I think by this time, I have an internal metronome that is actually more adaptable
and sophisticated than a real one.
Just like it's way easier to play a melody that you can hear in your head, it's way easier to
play a rhythm or tempo you can hear in your head.

I think the key to programming your internal rhythm machine is <infectious> rhythms... lively rhythms...
foot tapping rhythms.

And I think a lot of the rock music listening I did as a teenager
in the 1960's was part of internalizing that "metronome".
I'm not really a drummer, but one time I sat in with a Balkan ensemble, and got a compliment on
my "faking" the hand drum part, and also got a compliment playing a washboard with a jug-band for the first time... it's because I can "hear" in my head a rhythm that goes with those kinds of music- the rhythms have been internalized.

I think some of my objection to metronomes is genre based.
Classical pieces often have a stately dignified quality which suits the genre very well.
(Remember, I used to study classical guitar <seriously>, so I'm fairly familiar with classical music as a style)
And a metronome naturally gives you that kind of rhythm.
All you have to do to make it playable is add the "ritardandos" in the right places.
But if you try to play a fiddle tune that way, it doesn't sound so much "stately" and dignified,
but PLODDING and dreary. Then to make it sound fiddley, you have to actually change
the rhythms you practiced into something else...and that's a bigger job than just adding the "ritardandos"
A drum machine with a simple country beat might be a better choice for fiddle tunes than a metronome.
I wish there was a drum machine that had spoons, bones, step dancing sounds (both Irish and Scottish), clog dancing and bodhran sounds programmed into it!!! Maybe even a full washboard!!! Any of the above would sound better with a fiddle tune than a drum kit sound.

I have been known to practice along with a MIDI version of a fiddle tune, IF I like the tune version.
I DO like that, because it preserves the natural rhythm of a fiddle tune,
and you can speed it up and slow it down as needed, like a metronome.

So my objection is not to having a rhythmic aid per se, it's just that I wish there was something more suited to folk music styles than metronomes and drum machines!!! YUCK!!! What an awful choice!!!

Until some electronics firm comes up with such a box, the best thing is to internalize rhythms.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/04/2010:  16:45:29

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Maybe some ingenious person can develop a metronome that just does an old time shuffle instead of a click. I have seen musicians on youtube use a keyboard rhythm maker to play to. Or, better, lets develop a program into which you play a tune however you can, and the program makes necessary changes to it and plays it back.....in time and at any speed. HMMMM,?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/04/2010:  18:25:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by hardykefes

....if you are one of the musicians who keeps defending his method of learning without any tools like metronome or tuner....your timing might be bad...and may be your intonation too.

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Eh... might be... but I don't think so from the reactions I get.
(btw... I do use a tuner to tune usually... but drones are a much better way to check your intonation, once the fiddle is in perfect tune)

Alaska fiddler really makes the point... rhythm needs to be internalized...
in effect, I think by this time, I have an internal metronome that is actually more adaptable
and sophisticated than a real one.
Just like it's way easier to play a melody that you can hear in your head, it's way easier to
play a rhythm or tempo you can hear in your head.

I think the key to programming your internal rhythm machine is <infectious> rhythms... lively rhythms...
foot tapping rhythms.

And I think a lot of the rock music listening I did as a teenager
in the 1960's was part of internalizing that "metronome".
I'm not really a drummer, but one time I sat in with a Balkan ensemble, and got a compliment on
my "faking" the hand drum part, and also got a compliment playing a washboard with a jug-band for the first time... it's because I can "hear" in my head a rhythm that goes with those kinds of music- the rhythms have been internalized.

I think some of my objection to metronomes is genre based.
Classical pieces often have a stately dignified quality which suits the genre very well.
(Remember, I used to study classical guitar <seriously>, so I'm fairly familiar with classical music as a style)
And a metronome naturally gives you that kind of rhythm.
All you have to do to make it playable is add the "ritardandos" in the right places.
But if you try to play a fiddle tune that way, it doesn't sound so much "stately" and dignified,
but PLODDING and dreary. Then to make it sound fiddley, you have to actually change
the rhythms you practiced into something else...and that's a bigger job than just adding the "ritardandos" and such.
A drum machine with a simple country beat might be a better choice for fiddle tunes than a metronome.
I wish there was a drum machine that had spoons, bones, step dancing sounds (both Irish and Scottish), clog dancing and bodhran sounds programmed into it!!! Maybe even a full washboard!!! Any of the above would sound better with a fiddle tune than a drum kit sound.

I have been known to practice along with a MIDI version of a fiddle tune, IF I like the tune version.
I DO like that, because it preserves the natural rhythm of a fiddle tune,
and you can speed it up and slow it down as needed, like a metronome.

So my objection is not to having a rhythmic aid per se, it's just that I wish there was something more suited to folk music styles than metronomes and drum machines!!! YUCK!!! What an awful choice!!!

Until some electronics firm comes up with such a box, the best thing is to internalize rhythms.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/04/2010:  18:38:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

I had the pleasure of jamming with the famous old time musician, Melvin Wine, some time ago. Someone in the jam session asked him, “What kind of musicians to you like to play with, Melvin?”. He answered, “ I’ll play with anybody as long as they are in tune and on time!”. (of course, I was neither!!)

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I just came back from a practice session.... first time in days since I came down with the flu...
I've been feelin' stronger today...

Anyway, this statement of Melvin's you heard set me to thinkin'.

He definitely used patterns, and he was a downbower.
(I can see that clearly from the 4 or 5 videos of him on-line)
And I use patterns, and I'm a downbower.

It's one of those "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" things.
Are people attracted to downbowing and patterns, because they think like a drummer,
and are attracted to the rhythmic tidiness of the approach???
Or do the shuffle patterns help act as a sort of built in metronome to keep your timing in line?

I think it's both.
Say, if you have 3 measures going, with the same pattern in all three measures, you'll have the same rhythm, the same pulse, and the same bowing. Because you are comparing the same thing to the same thing.... apples to apples, it's going to be easy to notice any timing discrepancies in practice, and iron them out.

But if your bowing is always changing, your ear will be comparing a measure of one thing to a measure of something completely different...and it's going to be MUCH harder to iron out timing problems.

Anyway, as I was practicing, I could feel that the downbow accent pulses are just so tidy and orderly, that it's really MUCH easier to keep a groove and a steady rhythm going.

Granted, you could make it too tidy, to the point of being mechanical, but first you get it steady and under control, and then you learn to play with it.

hardykefes - Posted - 10/05/2010:  04:55:51

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You know how Bill Monroe selected and accepted a new musician?
He started a tune with him and the new musician had to walk around the house and by re-appearing on the other side he still had to be on time.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/05/2010:  04:56:30

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I agree with you fiddlepogo. I use the long-short-short of the shuffle bow pattern to help me keep a strong rhythm. I have noticed that some musicians who don't have or just don't use bow patterns just don't sound "old timey" to me. Sometimes I practice bow patterns just for their own sake and I practice banjo patterns also. It helps establish brain-body patterning. I call it getting the rhythm "in your bones!".

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/05/2010:  15:27:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

I agree with you fiddlepogo. I use the long-short-short of the shuffle bow pattern to help me keep a strong rhythm. I have noticed that some musicians who don't have or just don't use bow patterns just don't sound "old timey" to me. Sometimes I practice bow patterns just for their own sake and I practice banjo patterns also. It helps establish brain-body patterning. I call it getting the rhythm "in your bones!".

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"Getting the rhythm in your bones!"
I like that!!!

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/05/2010:  20:22:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by hardykefes

You know how Bill Monroe selected and accepted a new musician?
He started a tune with him and the new musician had to walk around the house and by re-appearing on the other side he still had to be on time.

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I thought that was a story about Earl and his brother Horace, but I forget.

Steady timing on your own is important for sure. But when playing with others being able to listen and lock in with them always trumps your own individual sense of time, especially if you're a fiddle player. For this reason, the metronome is a great practice aid for fiddlers. So it's not so much "your time", but the timing of your rhythm players. Good luck on that.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/06/2010:  05:42:46

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What I have done is pretend that the click of the metronome is another musician or a group, which has really good timing. If I can play with him I'm doing well. If I can't play along with him, then my timing is going to throw him off. By thinking of the metronome as a person it somehow seems less mechanical. A well timed CD can also server that purpose. It makes it seem more real.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 10/06/2010:  06:52:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

What I have done is pretend that the click of the metronome is another musician or a group, which has really good timing. If I can play with him I'm doing well. If I can't play along with him, then my timing is going to throw him off. By thinking of the metronome as a person it somehow seems less mechanical. A well timed CD can also server that purpose. It makes it seem more real.

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That's going to pay great dividends for you for a long time. Good on ya.

When you play with a guitar, banjo or other rhythm player, it's really just their beat that you most have to pay attention to, at least with regards to timing and tempo. So in that sense they are really exactly the same. One good thing about a metronome is that it often forces me to play longer that I will a rhythm track or Band In a Box, which will usually end in the normal length of time. The metronome just keeps on clicking and I'll often want to keep on playing along once I'm in the groove. That's not a bad thing.

pintoshine - Posted - 10/08/2010:  20:45:24

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My internal timing is really bad. I have had to work for every bit of musical performance I have accomplished to date(No inherent talent). I really rely on the rhythm guitar a lot. What such=ks is when a guitar player is depending on me for the speed. A lot of my notey fillins can get really out of whack. I tend to slow down on 1/32 notes in 4/4 or 1/16 in 2/4 tend to get drawn out.
Since I really like ragtime this gets really weird.
Ok I can keep time in a simple shuffle like a simplified version of Old Joe Clark without issue. throw in a few arpeggios and I fall apart. Metronome has never helped. I'm beginning to believe it is a hereditary lack of dexterity.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/09/2010:  07:33:06

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I know what you mean. The great banjo player, Cathy Moore, once told me that you don't know a tune well unless you can play it slow. I said, you mean fast don't you? She said NO,,,,slow. She is right. I played a few notey tunes slowly and was able to see exactly where I was messing up. I used a metronome to help with that but you can also use a helpful friend with a guitar.....or,,,,use a slow-downer on your computer to play a tune slowly so you can see what is going on. By matching a tune slowly, it helps develop the INNER TIMING that you are looking for. In my opinion you must ACTIVELY work on timing to get it. Of course there are always those musicians who never seem to have a problem with it and I often wonder if it is because they learned the importance of it while young . I played by myself for years and didn't see the need for timing. It was just enough for me to figure out where to put my fingers. It was when I started playing with others that the problem started to show. I feel you pain. Good luck. If you can think of some anecdotes about your timing that you would like to add to the list just let me know. LEE

bsed - Posted - 10/09/2010:  20:18:44

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My band did a program for a middle school yesterday. We got them up doing a square dance (this was in the gymnasium) and it got so loud in there none of us could hear what the others were doing. I couldn't hear the banjo at all. I told our guitar player I was mainly trying to hear her chording to give me a clue that I was where I was supposed to be. She said she couldn't hear anybody but me, and that was the main guide to tell her what chords she should be playing!
Meanwhile I'm concerned that I'm not keeping steady enough timing for the gal who was calling the dance, and I know she is real persnickety about rock-steady timing. Now go read my blog entry for the exciting conclusion...

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/10/2010:  06:51:43

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Sooooo, we could say that a way to tell if you timing is GOOD is if Lisa Ornstein gives your fiddle playing a compliment. Maybe we should start another list of 49 ways. Lisa has called for us here in Bloomington, Indiana and I agree that she is indeed a very good caller. My compliments to you on her compliment>
There have been times in a large jam where I could only hear myself and maybe one person sitting next to me. Any attempt to control the timing in such a situation usually goes unnoticed and I feel at the mercy of the group. But, I still love it even if the tune goes faster and faster. Of course, sometimes I am the one out of control!

Bart - Posted - 10/17/2010:  12:34:38

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Another program that a lot of people have that helps with this is Audacity. You can create a click track for as long as you want, and then "silence" as many sections at as many intervals, for as much length, as you want. Then, not only can you play along with it and see how you do, you can record yourself playing along with it and see how you do. Very humbling.

I was learning The Butterfly, and was playing along with the Audacity click track with silent sections, and thought I was doing OK. So I upped the tempo and tried again. Didn't think I was doing too bad. Then I listened to the recording, and I was darn close. But, that tune has 3 parts, and I found part B to be a little harder to come in on correctly. I wasn't anything like a whole beat off, but slightly behind the beat as I made the transition for parts.

I love Audacity as a tool for that stuff. As my teacher says, it cuts down on wishful hearing.

VivianW - Posted - 10/17/2010:  17:02:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bart
....it cuts down on wishful hearing.

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Wishful hearing - now that's a useful concept!

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/17/2010:  17:41:25

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I think that Audacity is the best free download out there. I use it as a slowdowner and also have put a click track on it also. The WAY that mentions that "if you don't like to hear yourself on a recording you might have bad timing" is what you are working with when you try to sync with the Audacity track. It is guaranteed that your timing will get better if you use Audacity. Good luck. LEE

leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/26/2010:  08:58:16

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I was spending some time this morning playing my fiddle and thought it might be a good opportunity to turn on the free web metronome, which I can turn up very loud on my computer. Even though I was playing tunes that I am "solid" on, I found that having the metronome as backup really helped reinforce the "bodily FEEL" of the timing. Don't know why I haven't done that more often. It was not like I was practicing with the metronome.....I wasn't practicing anything. I was just playing (to me, there is a difference). I thought of the metronome as a guitar beat and it was a good experience. Musicians should not be intimidated by a solid beat! If the musician has a solid beat, the metronome won't be a problem. If the beat is not solid, it is NOT the fault of the metronome.
This has inspired me to send out an email request to my local musician friends and see if I can get them to work on timing as a group. I'll cross my fingers that we all learn to play a little 'tighter'.

Bart - Posted - 11/02/2010:  06:46:23

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Somebody in a music theory thread shared this website, and although it is geared toward playing a bass, I am finding the theory and other parts of it to be very helpful.

studybass.com/lessons/rhythm/k...the-beat/

Today, I read the section on rhythm. It suggested simply clapping along with a metronome, starting somewhere around 65 BPM. Well, I tried it this morning. VERY interesting. Sounds simple enough. What the site said was that when you are totally, totally on the beat, the sound of the metronome's click will literally disappear.

Well, while none of my claps could really be said to be terribly off, I did notice that sometimes I could hear the click behind my clap, even though it sounded like the exact right timing, but other times the click did literally disappear so I couldn't hear it. I played around with this for a few minutes, and realized that I was coming in just very slightly early, and when I really focused on it, every click did disappear.

During the beats when I could slightly hear the click, none of my claps would really be said to sound "off." But wow, this exercise is a great fine tuner, and really showed me how much I want to have not just good timing, but great timing. Because I know that if I'm just a tiny little bit off while simply clapping, at 60 BPM at that, it isn't going to get better when I play.

I'm going to take the website's advice and do this clapping for a few minutes before every session for a few weeks and see where it gets me.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 11/03/2010:  15:29:12

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Now, back to the original topic. What are some of the ways YOU have been told that your timing is bad? I can easily see the list getting longer and longer with your participation.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 11/03/2010:  19:41:46

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When I first started playing bluegrass, coming from a blues/rock background, the guys in the group were not happy with my rhythm at all (wasn't really a timing issue). One guy told another, who later told me, that I would NEVER be a good bluegrass rhythm guitarist. It stung at first but I tried to buckled down. My problem was that I was putting all my accents on the 2 and 4 beats (the mandolin chop), which was mainly what I heard when listening to a BG band. I later discovered that the guitar's beat is really the 1st beat of the measure. One I learned that everything fell into place. Unfortunately there was no one in the band either astute or articulate enough to tell me this at the time. I had to learn it on my own. I also traded in my Taylor cutaway for a Martin D-18 which helped a lot too. LOL

Bart - Posted - 11/03/2010:  20:17:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

Now, back to the original topic. What are some of the ways YOU have been told that your timing is bad? I can easily see the list getting longer and longer with your participation.

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Lee, the best post I can come up with tonight is just not one I can make in good taste on FHO, no matter how amusing I'm finding myself right now. I might have to send you a personal message and hope you think it's funny!

leemysliwiec - Posted - 02/10/2011:  14:12:45

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I see that not one person has responded to this thread since last November. I also see that a lot of people have been reading it. Could I have exhausted the possibilities of ways that a person could be told that they have bad timing. Surely, someone has at least ONE thing that they can say that will indicate how YOU were told that you had bad timing. (maybe I really am the only one who has bad timing and will admit it. That would be VERY sad.....for me) . LEE

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Edited by - leemysliwiec on 02/10/2011 14:13:03

masameet - Posted - 02/17/2011:  20:08:53

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Naw. You forgot to mention this scenario:

If you're playing or singing and are oblivious to the other players shaking their heads, guffawing and rolling their eyes at each other, and who then change the tempo a bit when their breaks come, then your timing is bad and you'll never figure it out.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 02/25/2011:  14:34:56

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masameet, did that happen to YOU? LEE

masameet - Posted - 02/25/2011:  17:06:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

masameet, did that happen to YOU? LEE

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lol

Naw. Happened with another player, a big, tall guy decidedly elderly. Whenever his turn came up, he'd invariably pick a song to sing. He'd start real slow and at the chorus all of a sudden pick up the tempo. And bang. It was like he was at the races, he was going so fast and singing with much gusto and kinda punching the air with his fists. I figured he was just very enthusiastic and nervous.

One time over pizza, he said he saw Hank Williams in the flesh at the Louisiana Hayride. I thought that a right nice story. Not many folks in California can say something like that nowadays.

bsed - Posted - 02/25/2011:  19:33:58

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Yes? And was Mr. Williams timing bad that night?