MarkS - Posted - 02/26/2010:  16:51:19

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I have just gotten this program, and had I known its limitations with compound time signatures, I would have never purchased it. Unfortunately, because it was purchased as a reward at work, the money isn't refundable.

Just so the other folks know what is up with this, the program doesn't support 6/8, 9/8,12/8,5/4, or other common compound time signatures. What it makes you do is write as a 2/4 then add a swing or "triplet feel". If you want to notate something or import it as a 6/8 forget it, you have to try and find a "style" in the style list to hopefully match something you want to play. (doesn't do a decent job at strathspey rhythm in any style setting) Trying to have sheet music written via the program is a nightmare in these compound time signatures...

The tech support is first rate, very nice folks- it was nice chatting with them as they told me it was impossible to do what I need the program to do.

Save your money for something else if you commonly play these compound time signatures.

woodwiz - Posted - 02/26/2010:  17:31:40

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I would agree that it would be great to have more time signatures that you could just plug in. It's my biggest complaint, and doubt I will be upgradng until they do. However, you can get style set 38 with time signatures up to 19/16, and there are ways to work around 6/8 and 5/4. Just search it on PG's web site.

MarkS - Posted - 02/26/2010:  18:33:39

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I was gobsmacked when I found out I had to "work around" a time signature as common as 6/8. There are workarounds, but the method to work around a basic issue can best be described as "inelegant" at best, and gives inaccurate results. I generally don't throw good money after bad so it's quite doubtful I would bother with any style set for a while. I searched PG's website quite a bit, and talked with some very nice tech support people too, who said what I need this program is unable to do at present.

To point the music with the proper rhythm is quite impossible unfortunately. Ah well, live and learn.

Fiddlepiper - Posted - 02/26/2010:  23:21:37

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I'm glad to know all this..as I was going to buy Band in the Box, but not now!

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/27/2010:  07:35:02

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Browse the net for the Canadian fiddler "Alf's" website. Download his BIAB files AND the styles he has created. You will probably find a lot of the files you want in the downloaded BIAB files. Be sure to install the "STY" (i.e. style) files.

You can create double jigs (6/8). Each measure of notation will be entered in just one half of the measure in the BIAB entry screen. Don't fret, if a measure contains 3 chords, there is a way to enter these two chords in just half a measure of BIAB measure.

Let's say you have a tune where the first part contains 8 measures. You must enter these in 4 measures BIAB. Each chord will require 1/2 a measure of BIAB. Now, when the notation has two different chords in a half the measure, you enter both chords and enter enter a comma (",") between the chords. If I were entering notation for a measure which contained a "D" chord, and the next measure contained a "A" and a "D" chord, I would enter -

"D"
<ENTER>
"A,D"
<ENTER>

The data entries above would accomplish that.

Set the tune to 4/4 time. YES - 4/4 - I am serious.

Now, you must select your style. Select either "MYJIG" or "C_CLANC2". These styles must be downloaded from Alf's website and installed. They DO NOT come with BIAB.

Set the speed and other settings. Now, play the tune. Try both styles and use the one you like best.

I learned a lot by studying Alf's files. I bet you can find out how to enter some of the tunes by doing this. As far as I know, BIAB doesn't display the meter (i.e. 4/4, 3/4,etc.) for a tune, so I had to experiment with the different settings. Each style will work differently with different meters.

By the way, I usually create a "lead-in" measure. This gives me time to get ready to play.

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Edited by - Dick Hauser on 02/27/2010 07:44:36

MarkS - Posted - 02/27/2010:  17:08:09

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Thanks Dick for the information, I have finally just become too discouraged to use this program. Here is how I expect a program which costs this much to work. Place notes on staff, generate chords, customize style. Not with this program - just too complicated. If you try to enter a 12/8 it forces you into a tripletized 4/4. Then automatically sets the note values... for example John O'Leary's slide starts with a G,A,B C eighth notes, next measure is a Dquarter note, followed by a B eighth note. It won't let you place the quarter note in the second measure as first note... at least with any method I have been able to discover... it continually places an eighth note first. ????????????? How can you change note values and why is it so difficult to discover if there is a method. The closest thing I can discover is to tie two eighth notes together... what kind of program makes you do that?

So they give you a notation window, but don't really have it working properly.

I find the advertising deceptive... on the back of the box it says " Enter and edit music in Notation and Piano Roll windows, including graphic controller tools" and "High Quality fully editable on-screen notation, complete with chord symbols"
To me that says it is a (relatively) full featured music editing program. It is missing many different parts of the dynamics of playing. Number one on this end is easily choosing the note value (dotted eighth/sixteenth/eighth combination's in particular) You can make it play back correctly by changing the duration of the note in the staff roll notation mode, but not on the printed sheet as far as I can tell. Too many work arounds are needed with this program....

I can manage the placing the chords okay if I know them, but I don't have enough music theory to figure them out myself. Hmmm.

I am sure the improved styles would be helpful, but I can't believe the program has all the issues it does... and I haven't found it all that stable... it's crashed multiple times on me. I have a new computer, completely updated the program, and still am finding it unstable ... especially once I get into the real band end of it.

I just have to say all in all... I don't like having to fight the program to make it do what it says it can do. I would pay double this price to get the functionality I need.

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Edited by - MarkS on 02/27/2010 17:09:08

Percy - Posted - 02/27/2010:  20:55:21

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Just a few words in BIAB's defense... It works great for those of use who "think in guitar chords." I don't enter notation... I enter guitar chords and make backing tracks... and for me, it works very well and is very intuitive. But I'm sure it has limitations and probably doesn't work for everyone... but I just didn't want people to think it doesn't work at all. For what I do, it works well and I like it...

MarkS - Posted - 02/28/2010:  01:50:40

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I have to agree with you Percy, in fact, your glowing recommendation is what led me to this program in the first place(I'm glad your happy with it). If you are only after backing tracks and know the chords to a tune, it is pretty intuitive to input those chords and have it play it back to you (Alf's page is really great for those 'Celtic' styles). Unless you play compound time- then the program schizophrenic and not intuitive, and doesn't allow chord changes on each 8th note only on the 4 beats of the bar (notation shows up as 4/4 not 12/8) ; or synchopated beats. It frequently happens in music.
For instance, three accented chords in two beats such as the following syncopated figure:
dotted eighth, dotted eighth, eighth.
Or a quarter note triplet over two beats.
Impossible to do now in BIAB, other than with very complicated work-arounds.

However, if you are trying to get sheetmusic out of the program as well, (which I need the program to do) to play tunes then this isn't the program for you. It advertises itself as being able to input notation, discover the chords which blend with that combination of notes, and then develop possible harmonies and split them into different lead sheets for you. (doesn't really do that well).

I chose BiaB because with the added abilities of playing AND notating the music it seemed to be exactly right up my alley. When my version of Sibelius wouldn't work with windows 7, I was in the market for a new music engraving package and this seemed to have it all (I chose this based on its ability to engrave music (print music)). The program ABC is much more powerful at printing music than this program is. Even with ease of use for 2/4's and 4/4's its other limitations are tremendous, and I wanted to be sure others knew of this well known programs limitations so they didn't have the same expectations of being all the things it says it is.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/28/2010:  10:02:24

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To enter notation, I use Encore's relatively inexpensive "Printmusic" ($99). It will also create midi files for the notation. I have no complaints about "Printmusic".

Unfortunately, I have never heard a midi file that accurately reproduced the sound of violin/fiddle. When I absolutely must have the melody played, I use the sound of a grand piano.

The full blown Encore sells for $500-$700. The notation I create is pretty standard, so I have been able to do everything I want with "Printmusic".

I use "Band in a Box;", but just as a little more sophisticated rhythm device. I enjoying using BIAB than I do using a metronome. I also use a drum machine and recordings of an Irish bodhran playing various rhythm patterns. I use a metronome when I work on a musical phrase, but not complete exercises and/or tunes.

One thing about BIAB did "tee me off" though. I have purchased several BIAB style CDs. I purchased a new computer and bought a new version of BIAB. It would not let me load my style CDs on the newer version of BIAB.

MarkS - Posted - 02/28/2010:  19:22:32

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Thanks for the heads up on the Encore "Print Music"... do you know if it has the ability to place bowing pattern symbols above the notes?

I hear what you're saying about the midi files... as a general rule, they don't sound anything like they describe, but hey, I am usually just looking for confirmation of my sight reading skills.

I would attempt to make a call to BiaB and see if they would send you copies of those disks which you purchased... they seemed to be nice folks, and perhaps they would send you a new copy. I have had some other programs where a company sent the new files to work with Windows 7. Maybe BiaB would do the same.

harryt8 - Posted - 03/01/2010:  22:10:39

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I play Irish fiddle and had a similar experience with the limitations of BiaB.
I couldn't get much help from the BiaB Users Forum.
However, on browsing for "Band in a Box Styles" via Google, I came across "Alf's" site, and as you describe, it was very helpful in getting Reel, Jig and Hornpipe styles.

What I still have to achieve via BiaB is a simple guitar strum in sympathy with the tune as per what one might expect in a session or with another player at home.

Notation if required, can also be inserted into BiaB via ABC notation.

BiaB is an excellent program. It just hasn't been thoroughly mapped out for Irish or Scottish music styles as yet.

Learner - Posted - 03/12/2010:  13:03:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by MarkS

Thanks for the heads up on the Encore "Print Music"... do you know if it has the ability to place bowing pattern symbols above the notes?

I hear what you're saying about the midi files... as a general rule, they don't sound anything like they describe, but hey, I am usually just looking for confirmation of my sight reading skills.

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Hello Mark:

I recently purchased and am using "Finale PrintMusic". It does allow for articulations and bow markings. It also has multiple methods of entering notation. For example, you can mouse click, use computer keyboard shortcuts, use a midi controller/keyboard along with the computer keyboard, or just play directly into the program from a midi controller or keyboard.

finalemusic.com/PrintMusic/

It also has the ability to play into a microphone with a woodwind or brass instrument to enter notation. Finally, it has a scanning feature where you can scan in an existing score, and it uses a recognition algorithm to produce the notation.

It sells for $99 directly from Finale, but I bought a boxed copy online from the "Computer Music Shop" for only $59:

computermusicshop.com/PrintMus...rintm.htm


It supports 3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, as well as the common signatures and cut time. I didn't see 5/4 in the list. But this is only the low cost version of Finale's products, so they more costly ones may have it.

Best wishes,

Frank

Learner - Posted - 03/12/2010:  13:12:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by Learner
......It supports 3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, as well as the common signatures and cut time. I didn't see 5/4 in the list. But this is only the low cost version of Finale's products, so they more costly ones may have it.

Best wishes,

Frank

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Update: I just checked my Finale PrintMusic. It does support 5/4 time, but for some reason, it doesn't show up in the selection list when you first create your layout. But you can go and select either all the measures, or only some of them, and easily change them to 5/4 time.

I really like the Finale product. It does take a little bit of practice to learn how to use it. But the Users Guide (which defaults to the most current version posted on their website) is very easy to use, and clearly explains most topics.

Best wishes,

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 03/12/2010 13:14:08

leroyleroux - Posted - 09/21/2010:  09:26:43

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Last night I downloaded the $10 version of Finale. I had Amazing Grace done and looking nice in fifteen minutes. For right now, that version will do everything I need. To think of all the time my dad and sister spent writing out three copies of everything we played when I was a kid and typing out lyrics!

I'll have to check is it does 6/8, but I only do a couple of those as of now so it would be ok.

Looked when I got home, and it looks like it does a few more than Band in a Box.

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Edited by - leroyleroux on 09/21/2010 16:29:49

dzen - Posted - 09/23/2010:  07:39:31

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I bought BIAB, too and experimented with it enough to decide I didn't want to mess with it. That's happened to me with quite a few computer programs, from Microsoft Office on. Interface design is consistently terrible, in BIAB's defense, they're not unusual in that regard.

One specific complaint about BIAB is how they don't let you know until you're deep into it that getting the plug-ins-or-whatever-you-call-those-things-that-will-make-it-sound-halfway real will cost you extra money. Lots of extra money.

fiddledd - Posted - 09/24/2010:  16:13:10

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I agree, the BIAB interface is pretty crude, but I use it all the time to work out fiddle solos. (While I'm home practicing band-less). I just type in the guitar chords and set it to a tempo, then I adlib until I can come up with a solo I like. I do think it has its uses.