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Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/19/2009: 09:56:17
Hold on, hold on, everyone, befor we get all excited. I'll approach the subject gently, tactfully, explain it in a way so's to present all points of view, allow for others to make cogent suggestions, knowing all the while that this topic can lead to small rows around here. There. Calm. Okay, let's begin.
1) There are two and only two ways to bow a jig, at least until you've got the tune "under your fingers." Here are the patterns:
The first nine eigth notes are saw stroked, the next three are slurred. Try "Irish Washerwoman" with this pattern. Or--
Secondly, the first three eigth notes are saw stroked, the next three are slurred with an upstroke. "Morrison's Jig" and "Coleraine" nicely fit this pattern.
2) After you've got the tune "under your fingers," you may now "make it your own" by throwing in all sorts of accoutrements and other Latin based nouns.
Remember, these are starting motifs, just as learning a C scale is a start. It doesn't mean that you will be "straight-jacketed" into these forms for life, right.
Yet those of you who insist that you can learn these tunes just by "feel," that your beautiful muse and stunning existential core will guide you through them--sorry, you're wrong. We start with form. We start with a C major scale, then play around with it, but we start with it.
I expect a reasonable, lively, jolly slew of comments; moreover, I'm big enough to accept that perhaps some of my aforementioned findings might be found lacking by some...some...yet if most of you don't agree with me, I swear I'll bring back some Classical threads.
In stark, cold seriousness,
Humbled
musicsam - Posted - 11/19/2009: 10:03:51
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
Hold on, hold on, everyone, befor we get all excited. I'll approach the subject gently, tactfully, explain it in a way so's to present all points of view, allow for others to make cogent suggestions, knowing all the while that this topic can lead to small rows around here. There. Calm. Okay, let's begin.
1) There are two and only two ways to bow a jig, at least until you've got the tune "under your fingers." Here are the patterns:
The first nine eigth notes are saw stroked, the next three are slurred. Try "Irish Washerwoman" with this pattern. Or--
Secondly, the first three eigth notes are saw stroked, the next three are slurred with an upstroke. "Morrison's Jig" and "Coleraine" nicely fit this pattern.
2) After you've got the tune "under your fingers," you may now "make it your own" by throwing in all sorts of accoutrements and other Latin based nouns.
Remember, these are starting motifs, just as learning a C scale is a start. It doesn't mean that you will be "straight-jacketed" into these forms for life, right.
Yet those of you who insist that you can learn these tunes just by "feel," that your beautiful muse and stunning existential core will guide you through them--sorry, you're wrong. We start with form. We start with a C major scale, then play around with it, but we start with it.
I expect a reasonable, lively, jolly slew of comments; moreover, I'm big enough to accept that perhaps some of my aforementioned findings might be found lacking by some...some...yet if most of you don't agree with me, I swear I'll bring back some Classical threads.
In stark, cold seriousness,
Humbled
My beautiful muse and stunning existential core WILL guide me through them nicely!
I reject your patternery outright!
The funny thing is that he who shall not be mentioned doesn't use patterns on jigs! LOl.
This board is great.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/19/2009: 10:39:27
Amendment. I bowed some jigs this morn' and found a third pattern I was using, the first three notes slurred with a squiggly wiggly at the bottom of the downstroke, followed by the next three eigth notes carried by the upstroke. Thusly:
It is hereby decreed, forever and ever and in a most immutable fashion, that there shall be three--and only three--bowing patterns allowed for jigs...
And so on.
OTJunky - Posted - 11/19/2009: 10:39:34
Well, if either of you can bow a jig half as well as you can horse around then I guess we're looking at the next All Ireland National Champion - and maybe the first runner-up..
Edited by - OTJunky on 11/19/2009 10:42:58
dsreiner - Posted - 11/19/2009: 11:24:38
Hi Humbled-
It really depends on what style you're playing your jigs in.
Those are reasonable proposals for playing jigs for contra dances, or in New England style, or Scottish style.
Not so for Irish, however. In my experience, the bowings you proposed diminish the lilt of Irish jigs. Irish has more slurring "across" the beat, often connecting 3 and 4, or 6 and 1, of the six eighth-notes. To use your example of Coleraine, try slurring the last note of measure 1 into the first note of measure 2. Different sound, more traditional.
Dave
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/19/2009: 11:54:15
Hi Dave,
So what I'm hearing is that it's okay to use my ordained patterns when I'm around Scotsmen and New Englanders; yet the Irish don't like it or use it. Okay, okay.
It is hereby decreed, forever and ever and in a most immutable fashion, (and unless you're Irish), that there shall be three--and only three-- bowing patterns for jigs....
(Actually THANKS for taking the time to point that info out! Appreciate it)
musicsam - Posted - 11/19/2009: 11:58:53
Thank you humbled, we need the orderliness of your dictatorial leadership.
Do you have an extra set of electrodes so I can abuse myself for misbehaving?
amwildman - Posted - 11/19/2009: 12:23:58
I'm sorry, what sort of jigs are we talking about here? Single jigs, double jigs, slip jigs, hop jigs, or possibly slides? at least 5 different sorts of jigs, and each has its own unique characteristics that call for different bowing.
While there are some general guidelines and hints to the bowing, there are as many different bowings as there are tunes. Especially when you think about the tune as a whole (or even in phrases, God forbid) instead of in a one-measure snapshot.
Add in some string crossings, and the whole 'bow three, slur three' goes right out the window.
RobBob - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:16:47
Who plays jigs?
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:19:12
For those of you unfamiliar with the various forms of jigs, let me clarify, just to add to the discussion:
Slip jig. Common in Ireland. Drink too much Guiness or Irish whiskey, dance a jig, slip. Difficult to bow under most circumstances.
Slide jigs. Scandanavian types. In the cold northern climes, when ice becomes a problem, bowing jigs and the corresponding lack of footing make this motif difficult as well.
Single jig. When only one jig is played without following it in to another without interruption.
Double jig. Two or more jigs being played, one after the other.
Hop jigs. Other names for this are Guinness jigs, Coors jigs, Fiddle Ale jigs--any jigs being performed whilst beer is being drunk.
Whilst it's true that each "style" calls for a unique and appropriate approach, perhaps, it's also true that as a general rule, there are three--and only three--bowing patterns allowed when first learning to play these things, unless you're Irish or simply don't want to abide by these officially decreed motifs which are immutable and anon and ever more.
fiddlecraver - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:32:26
I dont know how i bow jigs but i play a lot of them... american/appalachian jigs at that... ill be playing some tonight at my gig... ill watch my bowing arm/hand/wrist and report back!
i love jigs and the ladies do too!
macnasparade - Posted - 11/19/2009: 13:57:32
I love playing Irish jigs!
I recently took an Irish session tunes class, and we were taught to slur across the beat--pretty much what dsreiner describes above. So that's what I try to do when playing jigs.
Liz
bj - Posted - 11/19/2009: 14:32:11
Humbled, there are times when you can be so EEEEEVVVVVIIIILLLL!!!!
I like that in a man . . . (and if you believe that I've got a bridge for sale . . . in NYC)
Edited by - bj on 11/19/2009 14:32:47
fiddlejen - Posted - 11/19/2009: 17:47:33
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
I expect a reasonable, lively, jolly slew of comments; moreover, I'm big enough to accept that perhaps some of my aforementioned findings might be found lacking by some...some...yet if most of you don't agree with me, I swear I'll bring back some Classical threads.
In stark, cold seriousness,
Humbled
Well then -- bring on those Classical Patterns!
BC - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:39:02
Hey Humbled
First, I need and want to bow down to your "HUMBLED"ness. I've read and TRIED to understand the many bowing threads. The more I read, the more confused I got.
But after reading the truly remarkable explanations you have so thoughtfully presented, I can now say without a doubt (unless I'm wrong) I finally GET IT!
I am a mere neophyte at fiddling, so please forgive me for what I am about to ask.
I am quite probably showing my age, but bear with me.
1) Would "Old Style" beer work if one is fiddling OT?
2) Is "jig" short for "jigger"? I believe a jigger is one and a half shots? I would think if I combine the correct whiskey ie: Scotch, Irish, Tennesee, and so on with the correct beer ie: Guiness, Bells, Pabst (Pabst?) I could pretty much play anything as long as I was proficient at slurring.
It would be greatly appreciated if you could find the time to expound on this and enlighten me if my thinking is askew.
AuldNick - Posted - 11/19/2009: 19:42:10
"Whoa, whoa. Hold it, hold it, hold it......
YOU - Louie Strongarm...what the heck ya think yer doin' ?"
((((Jimmy - B&G of CC))))
A prescribed bowing pattern for jigs (or any Scots/Irish tune) is a "paint by numbers approach".
In the end, you'll have 'something' you can hang on the wall, BUT..........
Nah..Irish (and Scottish) music is way deeper than bowing patterns.
Sessions, work shops, ceili, Morris...
in Phoenix, Chicago, Boston, New York, New Jersey, and recently in Cape Breton -
I've never heard the mention of "bowing patterns". (except to slag 'em off)
Listen, listen, listen - then listen some more. The music, your ear, and the dancers feet will
tell you how to bow the tunes.
OK...all that in good humour....AuldNick says "It's yer fiddle...
ya can play it any way ya like" ("but there's NO 'set' bowing patterns in Irish music")
Edited by - AuldNick on 11/19/2009 19:44:15
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/19/2009: 20:47:16
Fiddlecraver--watch how you bow and report back to me. I'll amend the immutable bowing pattern rule accordingly, without playing the accordion.
Macnasparade--I love jigs, too, and I slur over the beat, under the beat, top the beat, yet always according to my immutable patterns.
bj--my business partners will contact you about the bridge.
fiddlejen--remember, Classical training always helps; simply look at how much it helped Yo Mama play that cello.
BC--Yes! I detect a deep and meaningful understanding will overcome you quite soon. Bowing patterns, whether we want to admit it or not, simply exist. They can't be created nor destroyed, only more deeply understood. Old Style beer helps, certainly, and all the Scotch and whiskey and beer improves our slurs indeed. Keep up the good work!
Auld Nick.... Trying to pull a fast one on me are ye? Well, I too, have sailed the seven seas, played jigs in the meanest of the mean ports, fiddled in alleys so dark tha the de'il hisself won't go there. And what did I find? Irish fiddler Paddy O' Scotsman using my very bowing patterns on "Irish Washerwoman!" In Dublin I did. What say ye now, Auld Nick! And accusing me of a "paint by numbers approach!" Brah! The dancers, the young ones I meet in the innerest of inner cities, yell, "Yo yo yo, would you use a three notes sawed, three notes slurred pattern when yo bow 'Coleraine,' yo yo yo!" So who's foolin' whom!
autumnstrings - Posted - 11/19/2009: 21:25:08
I love jigs too, and polkas. I'm just not good at them yet.
autumnstrings - Posted - 11/19/2009: 21:25:18
I love jigs too, and polkas. I'm just not good at them yet.
TomGlos - Posted - 11/20/2009: 04:54:03
Sorry I don't understand why you'd want to think in terms of bowing patterns for jigs, where's the benefit?
bj - Posted - 11/20/2009: 07:40:19
quote:
Sorry I don't understand why you'd want to think in terms of bowing patterns for jigs, where's the benefit?
Humbled is a master at the art of Forum Troll Parody. IOW, it doesn't matter if there's a benefit . . .
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:06:30
Let me put to words the main thesis of those opposed to bowing patterns for jigs, by printing the actual conversation I had with one of these sorts.
Joe Imopposedtopatterns says, "There are so many jigs, so many different fiddlers, so many different nuances involved in the playing of jigs, that it's stupid to "straight-jacket" someone who's learning to play jigs into a few bowing patterns. The new student should, instead, listen and listen to the various established fiddlers, and then by and by he'll [or she'ill] [or we'll] learn how to play these tunes by...osmosis."
So I call Joe over. Listen, Joe, I says, not everyone learns by osmosis. Some of us need to have things spelled out first. THEN we may branch off, add to, yea and even connect with our splendiferous existential core and launch out glistening globs of organically grown Jig bowings. You understand? But first we need some structure just to get started. Understand?
I understand you're a loon, an absolute loon--
Look, Joe, you say there are an infinite number of ways to bow jigs, yes...
Yep.
Okay, let's take one measure of 6/8, filled with eigth notes. If we calculate the possible patterns we have with saw-stroking, using quarter notes, dots, etc., we arrive at fifteen possible patterns. A jig played through, parts A and B, including all the measures, gives us 342 patterns using saw stroke alone. Add to this number other slurs and hiccups (called grace notes by some), and we find that there are 2, 427 possible bowing patterns for jigs, hardly an infinite number!
Oh...I guess I never worked the numbers out...
Indeed! Bowing patterns exist, whether you like it or not!
Thus it is hereby decreed, there shall be two thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven--and only two thousand....
(I'm gonna go get some coffee now and wake up a bit....)
musicsam - Posted - 11/20/2009: 08:15:05
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
Let me put to words the main thesis of those opposed to bowing patterns for jigs, by printing the actual conversation I had with one of these sorts.
Joe Imopposedtopatterns says, "There are so many jigs, so many different fiddlers, so many different nuances involved in the playing of jigs, that it's stupid to "straight-jacket" someone who's learning to play jigs into a few bowing patterns. The new student should, instead, listen and listen to the various established fiddlers, and then by and by he'll [or she'ill] [or we'll] learn how to play these tunes by...osmosis."
So I call Joe over. Listen, Joe, I says, not everyone learns by osmosis. Some of us need to have things spelled out first. THEN we may branch off, add to, yea and even connect with our splendiferous existential core and launch out glistening globs of organically grown Jig bowings. You understand? But first we need some structure just to get started. Understand?
I understand you're a loon, an absolute loon--
Look, Joe, you say there are an infinite number of ways to bow jigs, yes...
Yep.
Okay, let's take one measure of 6/8, filled with eigth notes. If we calculate the possible patterns we have with saw-stroking, using quarter notes, dots, etc., we arrive at fifteen possible patterns. A jig played through, parts A and B, including all the measures, gives us 342 patterns using saw stroke alone. Add to this number other slurs and hiccups (called grace notes by some), and we find that there are 2, 427 possible bowing patterns for jigs, hardly an infinite number!
Oh...I guess I never worked the numbers out...
Indeed! Bowing patterns exist, whether you like it or not!
Thus it is hereby decreed, there shall be two thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven--and only two thousand....
(I'm gonna go get some coffee now and wake up a bit....)
I guess the real debate is about cramming tunes into patterns, or focusing on the tune and letting the pattern coalesce naturally as one specifically appropriate to that specific tune. Notes on the same string are, of course, more amenable to a slur. Though cross string slurring exists, slurs are much more natural feeling when on the same string.
Really this is about approach, pattern first, or tune first.
I believe a tune first approach will lead an individual to realizing a multitude of patterns for a tune, which he can switch in and out at will, instead of just one, that he decided on at the beginning.
I guess an analogue would be that of course dangerous microbes exist, but we don't have to let them ruin our lives with fretting and worrying about them.
Enjoy your caffeinated morning beverage! I migh get meself another too!
Edited by - musicsam on 11/20/2009 08:59:01
zai - Posted - 11/20/2009: 10:44:36
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
For those of you unfamiliar with the various forms of jigs, let me clarify, just to add to the discussion:
Slip jig. Common in Ireland. Drink too much Guiness or Irish whiskey, dance a jig, slip. Difficult to bow under most circumstances.
Slide jigs. Scandanavian types. In the cold northern climes, when ice becomes a problem, bowing jigs and the corresponding lack of footing make this motif difficult as well.
Single jig. When only one jig is played without following it in to another without interruption.
Double jig. Two or more jigs being played, one after the other.
Hop jigs. Other names for this are Guinness jigs, Coors jigs, Fiddle Ale jigs--any jigs being performed whilst beer is being drunk.
Whilst it's true that each "style" calls for a unique and appropriate approach, perhaps, it's also true that as a general rule, there are three--and only three--bowing patterns allowed when first learning to play these things, unless you're Irish or simply don't want to abide by these officially decreed motifs which are immutable and anon and ever more.
ROFLWTRDF
As for bowing jigs, one bow per note to start with and then stop thinking about the bowing and just think of the beat and the tune. :)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/20/2009: 10:48:35
I play a few jigs.
In putting together the fiddle portion of my senior variety performances, I realized that
familiarity trumps most other considerations when it comes to tune choices.
Irish Washerwoman, Garry Owen, and Pop Goes the Weasel are three VERY familiar jigs,
so I often include a medley of them in a performance.
After thinking about it, while my jig playing is MOSTLY sawstroke or "anywhichway", I do use a couple of patterns.
Only two, I think. I know there are others.
After I finish the 4/4 shuffle section of my bowing blog, I may tack on addendum including the two jig bowings.
I'm not going to share them here.
Of course, Humbled, you could ALWAYS come to one of my jams- it IS a driveable distance, and I could just SHOW you!
musicsam - Posted - 11/20/2009: 10:52:42
I want you to know michael that I was never offended by "anywhichway"! You know OTJ, he's just a bit sensitive. :>)
bj - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:33:52
quote:
I want you to know michael that I was never offended by "anywhichway"! You know OTJ, he's just a bit sensitive. :>)
Some people parody. Some people don't.
musicsam - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:38:53
[Inappropriate comment deleted.]
Edited by - BanjoBrad on 11/20/2009 14:12:24
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:45:33
Indeed, Fiddlepogo, indeed! Yet until we meet I'd love to read how YOU bow jigs, as that's how I learn, seemingly.
My fiddle instructor, who's so fun to listen to and who's won this and that title ad infinitum, showed me a couple of jig patterns just to get me started once she noticed that I wasn't "intuiting" how. Now I've added all sorts of stuff to the jigs and the patterns are...there at times, yet at least half the tune (tunes) go the way I FEEL, interestingly. But I needed to start with a thought-out form. And after Dave mentioned slurring over the beat, I noticed I do that all the time.
Anywhoooooo, if I remember from my teaching days, most people intuit all sorts of stuff, yet there are others--odd balls like me--who for some reason (how unreasonable) want a format to get started. The Five Paragraph Essay, for instance.... But let's not go there.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/20/2009: 12:48:46
[Inappropriate comment deleted.]
Edited by - BanjoBrad on 11/20/2009 14:13:08
fiddlejen - Posted - 11/20/2009: 15:57:14
quote:
The Five Paragraph Essay, for instance.... But let's not go there.
Too late!Here's how I bow jigs:
(1)
Look at the dots.
.....(Make sure no one accidentally included bowing marks. If they did, erase them!)
(2) Think of a jig I know.
(3) Guess whether it's an appropriate rhythm for jiggle-dots in front of me.
(4) While thinking of the already-known jig, play the one I'm looking at. It usually sounds great. If not, think of a different-sounding already-known jig, and try again. Keep trying, until it sounds jiggly!
First paragrah, plus 4 more -- that makes Five! Did it, Ha!
Edited by - fiddlejen on 11/20/2009 16:01:07
Feodosia - Posted - 11/20/2009: 20:55:47
I agree with Jen .... just follow the dots ...
its all diddly - diddly - diddly ....
with some wind instrument embellishments thrown in ...
Maybe an occasional Belfast shuffle ...
Hey , to show that I have nothing against it , I tried some diddly-diddly on my 5-string banjo today and uploaded it ..... its more improv then anything else...not a worked out version... but Ive been tearing my banjo apart lately and putting it back together , trying to get a brighter sound out of it
fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/me...icid=5534
Edited by - Feodosia on 11/21/2009 13:14:30
OTJunky - Posted - 11/21/2009: 13:31:30
Inappropriate comment deleted by author..
Edited by - OTJunky on 11/21/2009 19:24:46
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/21/2009: 13:36:53
Okay, after taking up MY valuable time and explicating a few worthy, venerable, well-thought out (I'd fallen in to a well when I thought 'bout 'em) bowing patterns for jigs, there are still some...some...who have the gall, the gander, the pungnacity to disagree with me. Thusly and henceforth--those of you who disagree with me have no right to be on this thread at all!
In tolerance and ever in search of harmony,
Humbled
BanjoBrad - Posted - 11/21/2009: 14:14:13
I'd prefer that the thread remain on-topic.
-Brad
fiddlejen - Posted - 11/21/2009: 15:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by Feodosia
Hey , to show that I have nothing against it , I tried some diddly-diddly on my 5-string banjo today and uploaded it ..... its more improv then anything else...not a worked out version... but Ive been tearing my banjo apart lately and putting it back together , trying to get a brighter sound out of it
fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/me...icid=5534
Oh - I see!
We had it all wrong.
But now, Feo mi amigo, you have shown us the Most Superior method.
Clearly, all Jigs ought to be played Pizzicato. Especially the double-stops!!
Edited by - fiddlejen on 11/21/2009 15:26:06
deckda - Posted - 11/21/2009: 16:16:19
quote:
[i]Originally posted by fiddlejen[/i
Clearly, all Jigs ought to be played Pizzicato. Especially the double-stops!!
Nay, I say!
Italian terminology can only taint the Celtic purity of the jig.
bj - Posted - 11/21/2009: 16:53:55
So what do you wanna call it, deckda? PaddyPlucking?
fiddlecraver - Posted - 11/23/2009: 17:33:53
Played 2 gigs and several jigs... my report--- hmmm my bow went up and down in various combinations... happened to quickly to analyze
now that im at home with my fiddle and try to analyze it, i just get confused...
fiddlecraver - Posted - 11/23/2009: 19:58:47
hmmm i could explain better if you were here... theres a lot to it!
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/23/2009: 22:11:05
Okay, Fiddlecraver, I'll head on over. Let's see, where are you. I'll be riding a bike, fiddle across the handlebars.
amwildman - Posted - 11/24/2009: 06:20:37
A unicycle would be better in this situation.
fiddlecraver - Posted - 11/24/2009: 07:03:40
There are certain thoughts a person should think when plaing jigs, and if your thoughts mesh with universal consciousiness then the bow moves itself properly and at that point you, the player become the one who is being played... at least thats what the little man dreessed in green told me...
fiddlejen - Posted - 11/24/2009: 15:27:12
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlecraver
... then the bow moves itself.... at that point you, the player become the one who is being played...
Sounds like you need to find someone not dressed in green, for remedial bow-hold review....
(...suggested review topic: maintaining bowhair contact with strings, rather than fiddler... )
fiddlecraver - Posted - 11/25/2009: 09:00:38
What is down on the e string is up on the G string
The d string at times can be neither down or up
