That was great, good bounce. One of my favorite hornpipes.

Thanks for taking a look Bill, and the kind comment. It is a real bouncy one, raises my mood when I play it.

I play the Americanized version called "Twin Sisters"
It's been smoothed out in that old timey way. This is very much like the version I play. Bouncy in is own way, I suppose

Twin Sisters

Nice playing, Scotty. Definitely got the "hornpipe" feel.
Billy, I don't want to hijack Scotty's thread (I plan to hijack a different one), but despite the widely held belief of Irish origin, the actual history of this tune is far from clear: tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:B...Bluehill_(The)
I know I learned it from the Fuzzies:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=QAlS29zVaV4
Who in turn learned it (more or less) from Taylor Kimble:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNKyPKPcwQs Taylor Kimble
It certainly was printed over here (as "Two Sisters") as early as the 1830's.

PS - I don't think the Tunearch link works, but you can search for it. Meanwhile, here's the page at the earlier Fiddler's Companion: ibiblio.org/fiddlers/BOY_BOZ.htm
The key statement is that the tune is "probably older in American tradition than in Irish".

Okay, whatever.
It's still the same tune played differently regardless of where it came from and even if it came from America it's the Americanized version because it's not being played as a hornpipe, it's being played as modern American old time players play it.

Nice one Scotty.

It's Irish....

Thats a great way of playing it with the old time style, does sound very smooth, the Irish style has what I suppose could be called a lot of angles in it, very enjoyable vid that, tune goes well with a full set of instruments.

Doug, I had heard that the history is a bit unclear, but I like different aspects of music depending on were its played, not the same as the actual origin but interpretation wise if you see what I mean, very intersting, different tunes history and were they originally sprang up

Blue Hill
Srughawadda
Co. Kilkenny
Ireland

Thanks for taking a look Pete and for the info, I will be honest I wasnt certain at all were it came from, I have been pairing it with harvest home, need another in same vein for a set. Thinking of going over to Ireland actually, not been for a long time, the Air fairs are crazy for a 20 minute flight, but I was thinking of going to Downpatrick were my family come from, to take a look at the place, never been there believe it or not, as I come from near Liverpool even though all my family were blues from Everton veil, and as Irish as they come;)

Keep The Ark a Movin

Just thought....it was one of the first tunes i ever learned also.
I'm English, Welsh, probably Jewish, and Irish as well, and i learned it from a Scottish Accordionist, who was in the American Merchant Navy. It was requested by an Irishman in The Emerald Isle Irish club , in Mansfield England.

There it was known as "The Boys From Bluehill". And played (and danced as) as an Irish hornpipe. As it is in all the sessions and festivals i have ever been to, I've never heard it referred to as anything other. Except on the internet. Where the exceptions are played as reels. And have differing parts, and different names. But the way Scotty is playing it is almost exactly like i learned it.

That first part of your reply certainly has a crazy mix of races:) I class myself as English also, because I was born here and not in Ireland, you wil, have heard of the town were I am from, but not posting it.

Being told I am playing it nearly the same as yourself, is a great compliment.

It's also good to remember that the nice neat idea of how to play a hornpipe in modern Irish sessions is not definitive of the Irish tradition either... as many field recordings in Ireland show multiple ways to approach 'hornpipes'. Some sound very "American".

Even currently... Big difference between what happens to hornpipes in a session in Dublin compared to a session in Donegal...

I often wonder if the differences have anything to do with the "Dance Offs" between folk such as Boz Juba, And John Diamond?

Other cloggers and dancers where competitors also, at pubs and dance halls etc, in Ireland, England, America, and Australia etc. Big money, and prides where at stake, And the dancers had their favourite fiddlers to choose from.

There would have been totally different styles for playing and dancing the same tune, from all sorts of traditions.

Irish dancing is still very competitive over here between different towns, schools, clubs and regions etc. My wife used to embroider the dresses for them. And transport their favourite fiddler, who i am told was an all Ireland champion Named Tommy Loftus. Who also played in the "Emerald isle" Irish club in Mansfield, where i first learned "The Boys From Bluehill".

You wouldn't dare to play a hornpipe as a reel for them.

dancing certainly has an influence. i change the way i play for dancers

but here we're looking at the mysterious origins of the tune (and the assertions surrounding it) ... the evidence points to the idea like doug said--that this tune is "probably older in American tradition than in Irish".

which would dispel the idea of "an irish tune that became americanized" or that american fiddling is just worn down or altered european music.... or that playing the tune with an irish hornpipey feel is more 'authentic' or 'original'

Well that's another view.

I'm saying that certain dancers may have preferred it played as a reel, and others may have preferred it played as a hornpipe , not saying either is "correct" apart from me knowing the "Boys from Bluehill" as an Irish hornpipe, rather than an American reel, with a different name.

But an Irish dancer would not be able to dance a Hornpipe to an American reel.

Pete, you've mentioned these "Dance offs" before. Does that account come from Dickens? If so it was from a very small section of the Irish area in New York. I think those named were minstrel show dancers (some of whom were Irish, as were some of the musicians). I don't think this has much to do with anything in other parts of the country, especially the South.
There are hotly contested dance competitions at many fiddle conventions today. This tune would not commonly be played, but If you played a hornpipe for them, you might get a tap shoe thrown at your fiddle to silence it.

No idea if the tune is Irish or American to be honest.

I learned this first on 4 string banjo from my grandad who was Irish and was a fine banjo player in his own right in the Liverpool area, he played it, and the rest of the family who all played various instruments, played it as you hear me play it, obviously a lot better than me, but that is the rythm they used, if they had heard the American version they would have given it a go, be ause they loved music.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Pete, you've mentioned these "Dance offs" before. Does that account come from Dickens? If so it was from a very small section of the Irish area in New York. I think those named were minstrel show dancers (some of whom were Irish, as were some of the musicians). I don't think this has much to do with anything in other parts of the country, especially the South.
There are hotly contested dance competitions at many fiddle conventions today. This tune would not commonly be played, but If you played a hornpipe for them, you might get a tap shoe thrown at your fiddle to silence it.

---

Boz Juba, John Diamond, Dancing for eels, accounts of competition dances in Australia, Firemen in New York, North east England clogging, Dutch traders at market in New York (New Amsterdam), etc etc. It was big time competition at one time of day money, reputations, the Craic etc, all used it to attract punters in the 18th early 19th century. It was what they called entertainment back in the day.... Apart from bear baiting, cock fighting, and bare knuckle fighting etc.

What you say about getting a shoe thrown at you at an American dance, seems (to me), to be a hang on from the fierce competition that went on maybe?

it would be the same if you played an American reel for a "practiced" Irish hornpipe over here. The Mothers of the dancers would certainly have something to say, so would the dance teacher. All good Craic, (apart from if you get hit by the shoe)

But that's just my theory after Googling about, and playing at a few wakes, dances, clubs and pubs etc over the years. Music isn't always a refined affair, as i'm sure you know.

That clog dancing used to be done were I live here pete, pitmen and glass workers did it.

They also fought just using clogs, which were steel tipped, they would put their hands on each others shoulders and kick each other in the shins till one collapsed usually with smashed and splintered bones, big money was bet on outcomes.

I have always thought that the dancing done in the states in the Appalachians resembles closely the clog dancing of this region, a lot of people as you know left from here to go to the states.

Ouch!

I wonder if they Kicked each other in time to the Boys from Bluehill?.......Lol

I remember a bunch of Scousers from the Atlantic Pub in Liverpool, (haunt of the great "Gary Potter", (Guitarist extraordinaire), Hijacking a trip to the Rijswijk Gypsy Jazz festival, Raiding the duty free for booze, and dancing in giant tourist clogs around an inflatable tulip to our attempts at Gypsy jazz music. Then watching them get chased around by customs officers at the ferry terminal in said giant clogs. None of them even had a passport they just left the Atlantic Pub and got on the bus to Rijswijk for the Craic.

Hey i think i read that Boz Juba died in Liverpool also??

Tell the truth here , though it may be a form of heresy, I have never even heard of Bo z Juma. Could have looked him up but I ddnt. May well have died in Liverpool, lot of people have in the clubs round here, some bad audiences lol.

I myself dont class myself as a scouser, though, even though I only live about 12 minutes away on the quick train, and all my family as I also said were Irish immigrants who lived in Scotland road. .

Liverpool though, as you know amongst the Irish and the scousers is the second capital of Ireland, they ale all rogues who like a good laugh and a drink or two, and like the irish will take your money with a wink and a smile.

I love this tune in both its incarnations... I guess I don't really care who "invented" it.
In the Tune Archive reference Doug cited, this is what attracted my attention. 

O'Neill (who said the melody was unknown to Chicago Irish musicians beforehand) had the tune from a seventeen year old fiddler named George West, who, though gifted musically, was somewhat indigent and did not own a fiddle. He had formed a symbiotic musical relationship of sorts with one O'Malley, who did own a fiddle and who eked out a meagre living playing house parties despite the loss of a finger from his left hand. O'Malley, however, invariably could only make it to midnight before he became too inebriated to bow, at which time West took over his fiddle and finished the night's engagement. "Thus lived the careless, improvident but talented Georgie, until an incident in his life rendered a trip to the far West advisable." 

John D thats agreat story, especially the bit were he could only make it to midnight, made me laugh, I have seen that happen on a few occasions.