Play in the flat keys?

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeFiddler

This may be a bit of stupid / woolly question, but … my fiddle often sounds a bit harsh and scratchy, however if I tune down a tone it sounds wonderful and rich and makes me sound twice as good a player!

Is there anything I can do to replicate that richer more mellifluous tone when in standard tuning?

Is it set up or playing?

---

I have wondered about that also.. In the old days, were violins tuned as high as they are tuned these days??

I love the sound of my tuned down fiddle too!

But I have to get into standard pitch for playing in groups…So I have been experimenting with various mutes, a soundpost adjust, strings. They all helped a bit…

I have read that in past times, the pitch of A was not that high. I had to tune to A=415 to play in the early music group...
But I don’t think my instrument is quite THAT old! :-D

I am often confused when learning an old tune, whether folk played in a flat key or whether their instruments where tuned down in the first place.

Eg: D tunes notated in Eb or Bb tunes notated in A or vice versa. 415hz is approx a semitone down so folk may have been confused when notating tunes.

I was wondering if low tension strings might replicate that richer tone.

Also .. as people say I do often just play in flat keys but doesn’t work in a group session!

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

I am often confused when learning an old tune, whether folk played in a flat key or whether their instruments where tuned down in the first place.

Eg: D tunes notated in Eb or Bb tunes notated in A or vice versa. 415hz is approx a semitone down so folk may have been confused when notating tunes.

---

I've always  thought that fiddlers just tuned their fiddle to Themselves since many people didn't have a note reference..!

Some of the old tunes, particularly English tunes, really lend themselves to closed position keys Eb, Bb, F, etc but then others written in normal fiddle keys Eg: D, A and G, Don't. They have too many open strings to my ear. And don't seem to make ergonomic sense.

Edit: in standard tuning, (i never tune my fiddle otherwise)...Oh apart from baroque tuning ...A semitone low.

I always keep one fiddle in DGCF (thin to thick).
Good for Cajun, but also for giving my ears a break.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeFiddler

I was wondering if low tension strings might replicate that richer tone.

---

It depends on your instrument, they say! 

On mine, yes did help...there are string charts online with the tensions listed...Right now I'm using Dominants and Violinos, which are on the lower end for tension, and they sound more mellow than my previous strings.

Also when the luthier took a bit of tension off my soundpost, my violin "projects" less but the tone overall is more mellow and rounded. I'm no longer a classical player and I mostly play in small groups of people in small areas these days, so projecting my sound across a big space isn't important to me anymore...

And yea Pete, those older players are rarely turned to our concert A!

I think they just played all by themselves more…not with recordings, and maybe they didn’t have tuning forks or pitch pipes easily available? Or maybe in the case of Irish stuff they were tuning to the pipes, which seem like flattish instruments…? I dunno!

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeFiddler

This may be a bit of stupid / woolly question, but … my fiddle often sounds a bit harsh and scratchy, however if I tune down a tone it sounds wonderful and rich and makes me sound twice as good a player!

Is there anything I can do to replicate that richer more mellifluous tone when in standard tuning?

Is it set up or playing?

---

Not a stupid question at all. When you lower the pitch of the strings, you also lower string tension. If the strings are screaming at normal tension, lowering it will soften some of the harshness. Lower tension strings will also do this to some extent. However, if the violin is harsh, it's likely more of an adjustment issue unless you're using awful strings. Soundpost fit, position, and tension, bridge position and cut, projection, and afterlength all impact the tone, nothing more so than the soundpost. Lowering the strings may work as a bandaid fix, but it doesn't address the problem, and you're likely to get a much better sound at any pitch if the instrument receives a good adjustment. 
 

Until relatively recently there was no standard pitch. While baroque players often use A415, this is done for the sake of convenience and consistency, not because it is based on a historical standard. Pitch varied all over Europe and tended to be determined by the local church organ. While many pitches were lower than 440, some were actually higher. Fiddlers often use a lower pitch to get a bit darker and more mellow sound. This makes sense if you consider the fact that fiddlers tend to use the brightest, highest-tension  strings (steel), which naturally make the fiddles edgy and extremely bright. Some of the old timers chose a pitch that seemed agreeable to their own sensibilities and used that as their standard, some just approximated what they thought was an A.

Playing technique can bring out the harshness of the strings and instrument more if the bow arm is not well coordinated and smooth, but as long as the technique is at least rudimentary, it's a symptom of the problem, not its cause. 

Maybe you could experiment a little and move the sound post and the bridge slightly forward to reduce the tension. Another thing to try is to leave the sound post where it is and move the bridge behind the sound post and put the top 3 strings of a viola set onto the bottom 3 places and put a .010 guitar string for the “E” If you want to make this permanent you’ll probably have to put a 3/4 or 1/2 size tailpiece on it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martyjoe

Maybe you could experiment a little and move the sound post and the bridge slightly forward to reduce the tension. Another thing to try is to leave the sound post where it is and move the bridge behind the sound post and put the top 3 strings of a viola set onto the bottom 3 places and put a .010 guitar string for the “E” If you want to make this permanent you’ll probably have to put a 3/4 or 1/2 size tailpiece on it.

---

For the tone and health of the instrument I would not recommend this. 

Me: You're going to put a new carburetor on the car?
My Mechanic: Yep
Me: But the car has electronic fuel injection!
Mechanic: Don't worry, I'll slap a battery on it!

@JoeFiddler