Try leaning/tilting your whole left hand forward (more vertical). I do it with either my arm or wrist, depending on what is more natural and comfortable at the moment. I have no idea, however, which is "proper."

The one thing that jumps out at me about your post is you mentioned letting the neck rest on the web between the 1st finger & thumb. I'm pretty sure I never do that.

I've been trying to be a little more self-aware of what I do with my thumb lately. You have to shift around depending on which strings you're stopping and/or which position.

I shift my elbow, especially when I play on lower strings. It's sort of like a swing that changes the position of my hand. It might work for you when you play on higher strings.

What is the correct position of the left elbow?
(1) The elbow is more to the left when playing on the E string; more to the right when playing on the G string.

https://www.simonfischeronline.com/uploads/5/7/7/9/57796211/157_left_elbow.pdf

Thanks for the replies.  Here are some pics of my hand position.  Here's double stops on 2nd & 3rd strings (hand straighter), as well as double stops on the 1st & 2nd string (hand more bent away from my body and thumb higher).   Describing this 2nd hand position, the neck is resting more on the meat of my hand than the web between thumb and finger, but anyway, it is very different than how my hand is usually when playing single notes.  I'm pretty awkward shifting between these two positions - music definitely gets broken a bit.

note:  fingers only roughly placed in position.

Is there supposed to be any support from the left hand at all? I see that regardless of whether my fiddle can be held by my chin when using a shoulder support, I still am doing some support with my hand, which may be hampering me.

Hmm I took a pic of myself playing that doublestop...I use probably a common "classical" hold...

I think one thing is, don't squeeze the neck (this will cause pain down the line, when you play a lot)...
and, maybe your knuckles need to be a bit more parallel to the neck or something so that 1st and 2nd fingers aren't invading each other?

(NOT a teacher, so take with a grain of salt! :-)

Ga, how are people posting photos so nicely! Mine always come out HUGE even though I set it to be 300 pixels wide...sorry.

Squeezing doesn't seem to be a problem, but I'll keep that in mind.

I have been experimenting a bit this morning and think I need to work on joint flexibility, particularly in my index finger since it really has to fold up to get those 1st string low positions without moving the hand/wrist position much. Starting at an older age, it's not bad, but the finger's not as naturally flexible as a younger finger would be.

Yea, re the squeezing...I said that because I have been struggling with left forearm tendonitis lately...analyzing it, I realized that I tend to squeeze and slam fingers down when I play fast ... the little stuff adds up and comes back to haunt you...ugh.

Looking at your pics, it seems that turning your palm a bit so knuckles are more parallel to neck, might undo the crowding of the fingers? But I think everybody's playing position should accommodate their own hand/body...

I'll throw in my two cents: Don't "grip" the fiddle with your left hand, keep you wrist and palm a little away from the neck. Don't mash your fingers down, its unnecessary and spreads the tips of your fingers out which is not good. My experience was that playing drones fingering the higher string and leaving the lower string open was easy as pie. Then when I tried fingering the lower string and droning on the higher string  everything went to hell. That's where hand position, finger arching and pressure, thumb position etc. all come into play. If you can play 1st, 2nd, third finger on the D string and get nice clean drone on the A, your hand position is OK.
Good luck and have fun!

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Originally posted by carlb

I shift my elbow, especially when I play on lower strings. It's sort of like a swing that changes the position of my hand. It might work for you when you play on higher strings.

What is the correct position of the left elbow?
(1) The elbow is more to the left when playing on the E string; more to the right when playing on the G string.

https://www.simonfischeronline.com/uploads/5/7/7/9/57796211/157_left_elbow.pdf

Very helpful link.  Thanks for that.

When playing toward the nut on the 1st string, how many of you have only contact with the thumb and the tips of the fingers on the strings? I've been maintaining contact with my thumb and the side of the index finger base nuckle, which means the index finger has to really fold up to play on the 1st string.

Just now I was playing and only contact with the thumb and the tips of the fingers on the strings and it was much more comfortable, but I don't know how easy it is in the long run to make that slight shift in position/support in more complicated pieces.

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Originally posted by timsch

Thanks for the replies.  Here are some pics of my hand position.  Here's double stops on 2nd & 3rd strings (hand straighter), as well as double stops on the 1st & 2nd string (hand more bent away from my body and thumb higher).   Describing this 2nd hand position, the neck is resting more on the meat of my hand than the web between thumb and finger, but anyway, it is very different than how my hand is usually when playing single notes.  I'm pretty awkward shifting between these two positions - music definitely gets broken a bit.

 

note:  fingers only roughly placed in position.

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Your pictures demonstrate the issues perfectly. The main issue here in your hand position is that your thumb is pointed back toward the scroll and it's held too far back in relation to the base joint of the index finger. To get the best position for access to the fingerboard, you can follow this simple technique:

Hold your hand out as though about to wave, with the thumb apart from the fingers. Rotate the hand so it faces you. Place the neck of the violin so that it sits against the base joint of the violin index finger. Then bring the thumb into position straight across without moving the rest of the hand. There will be room between the neck and the web of the thumb joint--this is important because it puts your fingers in the best position to reach. 

To test the efficacy of position, here is another exercise (known as the Geminiani position) to put your hand into a  proper posture:

Place the first finger on the E, the second on the A, the third on the D, and the fourth on the G.

Keeping the wrist straight will give your fingers greater mobility, dexterity, and reach. The fingers should be held above the fingerboard so they can drop down straight instead of being slid in from an angle. 
 

Keeping the left elbow tucked under the violin gives better reach and mobility to the fingers. This position is not always achievable for adult learners as it rotated the forearm in a way that's difficult for adults without prior experience. If this posture is not possible, you may need to make sacrifices in technique to be able to play. Since the technical requirements of most fiddle music are not very extensive, there is more latitude to play with compromised technique. 

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Your pictures demonstrate the issues perfectly. The main issue here in your hand position is that your thumb is pointed back toward the scroll and it's held too far back in relation to the base joint of the index finger. ...

I think you're referring to the top left picture in my post above, which is the position that I feel is wrong, but up to today, that's the only way I've been able to get to a doublestop on the 1st 2 strings.  The bottom right picture above shows my hand position for all other fingerings, which I think pretty well matches your description of how to do it.

I should clarify that I've only had to contort like this to get to the D doublestop that has the F# and C#.  Any similar position up the neck may be just as hard, but different interval doublestops on strings 1 & 2 aren't a problem for the most part.

I just tried putting my hand into the Geminiani position as you described, and I couldn't get my index finger folded up enough to keep my index base nuckle in contact with the neck while the index finger stays on the E and the pinky goes to the G.  That's a tough one.  I don't have any problem keeping my elbow under the fiddle, though.

Hmm just tried that again and yes, I’m touching at side of the base of first finger, and lightly with thumb (towards the top of thumb…)
but hmm if “folding up” your index finger is hard, maybe you have to figure out what works comfortably for you… ?

I'd imagine that with time and working it, it'll become more flexible.

Thanks everyone for the pointers

timsch - I think the doublestop you're looking for is F# on the E string and D on the A string, not C#. If the bottom photo is comfortable for you, can't you rotate your hand just a bit to reach the 1st and 2nd strings? Its only a quarter inch at most.
Opinions differ, and it may depend on what style of music you want to play, but I have to wonder why you are concerned with doublestops if you've only been playing since December. Its much easier to play that F# against the open A string as a drone, and its much more common, at least in American old time music (maybe not in country, or other styles). If you want to improve finger flexibilty, I'd suggest playing scales or simple tunes, rather than trying to tie your hand into a pretzel. Many old time players played many more single strings and drones than actual double stops, despite what you might hear.

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Originally posted by DougD

timsch - I think the doublestop you're looking for is F# on the E string and D on the A string, not C#. If the bottom photo is comfortable for you, can't you rotate your hand just a bit to reach the 1st and 2nd strings? Its only a quarter inch at most.
Opinions differ, and it may depend on what style of music you want to play, but I have to wonder why you are concerned with doublestops if you've only been playing since December. Its much easier to play that F# against the open A string as a drone, and its much more common, at least in American old time music (maybe not in country, or other styles). If you want to improve finger flexibilty, I'd suggest playing scales or simple tunes, rather than trying to tie your hand into a pretzel. Many old time players played many more single strings and drones than actual double stops, despite what you might hear.

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You're right, D and F#.  Short between the ears.

I've only been playing the fiddle since December, but I've been playing stringed instruments for a few decades, and I've found it pretty easy to progress quickly on new ones, already understanding music.  Basically learn how an instrument is tuned and off I go.  Fiddle is more challenging with the bow being unique to what I've done, but it's still going good.

That'd be the 4 chord when playing in A, with the notes being the 4 & the 6.  Going from the 1 to the 4 chord, with the 3 & 5 to the 4 & 6 notes happens all the time in any number of the old time / roots / country styles I play.   If there's a better way to do it, I'm all ears.

I'm playing all kinds of simple tunes, as well as running scales & arpeggios, trying to learn the fingerboard.  Working on the 1st Suzuki book also.   I wish I'd taken it up sooner, but never had the urge until I went to an old time festival in November and my daughter came back from that saying she wanted a fiddle.  I got her one right away, and shortly after that figured I might as well get one too and learn alongside her.   It's been great fun.

quote:

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Originally posted by timsch

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Your pictures demonstrate the issues perfectly. The main issue here in your hand position is that your thumb is pointed back toward the scroll and it's held too far back in relation to the base joint of the index finger. ...

I think you're referring to the top left picture in my post above, which is the position that I feel is wrong, but up to today, that's the only way I've been able to get to a doublestop on the 1st 2 strings.  The bottom right picture above shows my hand position for all other fingerings, which I think pretty well matches your description of how to do it.

I should clarify that I've only had to contort like this to get to the D doublestop that has the F# and C#.  Any similar position up the neck may be just as hard, but different interval doublestops on strings 1 & 2 aren't a problem for the most part.

I just tried putting my hand into the Geminiani position as you described, and I couldn't get my index finger folded up enough to keep my index base nuckle in contact with the neck while the index finger stays on the E and the pinky goes to the G.  That's a tough one.  I don't have any problem keeping my elbow under the fiddle, though.

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Glad to hear your left arm position isn't an issue. I had a friend in college who wanted to learn to play. He was a grad student in his early 30s but he was a very high level athlete (the kind who spent hours in the gym practically ever day that made everyone else look like an amateur and could decide to run a marathon on a whim in a week's notice).  His flexibility was quite good in most ways, but for some reason he just wasn't able to hold the violin properly and gave up trying to play after only a month or two of lessons because he just couldn't get the left arm in position.

I looked at all the pictures before commenting. The third picture looks slightly better as far as the wrist position but the thumb isn't visible, and the hand position in all the other pictures is not what is considered proper. Your fingers are not in good position over the fingerboard--the little finger is way off the neck in particular and the other fingers are coming in at awkward angles and getting in each others' way. A straight line is the shortest distance from one point to another, so economizing the motion is important. Think of the fingers like pistons traveling straight up and down and make sure they aren't wandering out of line; it will do wonders for your progress. You do have to compress the joint of the fist fingers a bit to play an F natural in first position, and that's something that can be difficult for some players as they start out, but it really helps for the overall accuracy of intonation and finger dexterity to hold the violin in a posture that doesn't have the thumb pointing backward. 

Well, I almost certainly can improve on my finger position, but I did include a note in the post with the pictures for people not to look too critically at my finger placement in those pictures since I was holding a camera and thinking of my thumb and neck placement and not so much the fingers.

I should look into posting a short clip of my playing to get some feedback of what I look like when actually playing since my only teachers have been videos.

Why is everyone's pinky hooked up on their ring finger? Get it off there and wobble it about

Why I haven't chimed in: Double-stops and drones I use constantly are difficult to see. This tells us where the palm is at compared to the fingerboard. Sorry.

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why is everyone's pinky hooked up on their ring finger? Get it off there and wobble it about

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Classical guitar, year 5...hand injury and could not play any music for a year...my pinky has never been the same since! Sometimes when playing tunes with a lot of fourth finger, I shift into second position to avoid pinky use. 

anyway that's why I harp on people feeling comfortable, and on learning proper playing techniques...I knew those reaches were uncomfortable but I made myself do them. And I probably should have examined my hand/arm position more carefully and thought about getting a short-scale guitar. ( For awhile after the injury, just listening to classical guitar would make my hand ache! How weird is that! )

Rich said this: Hold your hand out as though about to wave, with the thumb apart from the fingers. Rotate the hand so it faces you. Place the neck of the violin so that it sits against the base joint of the violin index finger. Then bring the thumb into position straight across without moving the rest of the hand. There will be room between the neck and the web of the thumb joint--this is important because it puts your fingers in the best position to reach. 

That is more or less what I do. The top of the fingerboard is near the base joint of my left index finger. That's my anchor, and the thumb goes wherever it goes. I have a larger hand with longer fingers. So about half of the last part of the thumb (distal phalanx) protrudes above the fingerboard.

I was in the front row of a classical concert yesterday where I got to look at what all the violin and viola players were doing. None of their thumbs stuck up as much as mine. But I'm pretty sure they all have smaller hands!

I play mostly without a shoulder rest. So I have to have contact with the neck somehow.

I also injured my hand and couldn't play a fretted instrument for 5 years. I also have never fully recovered and am having a flare up currently. Tendonitis in the left hand running from the palm of my hand to the middle finger. Strengthening, stretching & massage are key, but I always lose the discipline of maintaining a schedule when I'm feeling OK.

Picking up the fiddle seems to have aggrevated the condition with the relatively contorted postion of the left hand/arm.

Fortunately, I have non fretting instruments to carry me through during bad times. I got somewhat proficient with slide guitar and harmonicas during that time, so not wasted time, but I still wish I'd not gotten to that point.

Hopefully I can get it back under control again this time.