Interesting about Mary Bergin!

Rephrasing thought, for Geo:
So my whistle friend (who prefers his more modest whistle for the sound) triggered my line of musing that fiddlers growing up in rural Ireland back in the day, probably had modest instruments, and felt grateful to have a fiddle at all.

So would playing some kind of expensive concert instrument, perhaps using ‘violin’ skills, deviate from a “pure drop” traditional sound?

It seems like many modern young Celtic fiddlers sound like they have a classical foundation and a music degree…polished-sounding, technically smooth, playing on lovely instruments. I like listening to them (i.e. Lunasa, Rura, etc) yet I still also like listening to the older greats (maybe scratchier, sans formal lessons, but such creative genius in there).

Anyway - drifting now! :-)

Anyway I concluded that for me, in real life, it just comes down to playing an instrument that I connect with. Not gonna think beyond that!

Here is the TLDNR version -

if M feels like he gets a traditional “Mary Bergin” sound on his cheap tin whistle -

will I get a traditional “Tommy Jarrell” sound on a Sears & Roebuck fiddle?

Conclusion (at least for me): Nope!

This reminds me of a story a customer told me about his teacher. The teacher was at the time a young performing player. One day he was speaking with Oistrakh and complaining about his violin that he didn’t think allowed him to play well enough. He told Oistrakh “Maestro, if only I had a violin like yours I could sound more like you.” To that Oistrakh responded “Hand me your violin.” He then played something on the violin and drew out a glorious tone. He handed the violin back and simply said “No, you couldn’t.” That ended up being a defining moment in the player’s life.

Also, I find it amusing that fiddling enthusiasts and classical enthusiasts often take such different views of Vuillaume's violins. The former often sneer at Mark O'Connor for playing a "high-falutin' eye-talian fiddle" while the latter often malign Hilary Hahn for playing on a "poor man's Strad." Fritz Kreisler often played a Vuillaume but let audiences think he was using his Guarneri to avoid scrutiny. In Vuillaume's own time, Paganini was a close friend and supporter. Vuillaume copied the Cannon several times when Paganini brought it in, but all of Paganini's other instruments tend to be forgotten because of the fame of the Cannon. Sometimes you just can't win!

My conclusion about playing and performing folk music on any instrument available is ... "You can't bye it"...."It's in you or not", (to a certain degree) .... And "it grows if you nurture it".....And even if it only grows enough to please yourself, it may hopefully  give someone else pleasure also !

Violins are not priced based on tone. Tone is malleable. Violins are priced on objective criteria.

Violins are purchased by players based on the player's subjective criteria for tone and playability. Players have different tone and playing preferences, techniques, and bows. A dealer cannot predict what tone an individual customer will prefer.

The are very expensive violins that sound awful and relatively inexpensive violins that sound great. It is a misnomer to equate higher price with better tone.

What George said.
I was not advocating cheep instruments, I appreciate good stuff. When I was younger and played more in public I played Martin guitars and Gibson banjos .

Now I play by and for myself and my inexpensive fiddles work fine.." FOR MY PURPOSE. " we all have our own parameters and needs.

By the way...I am not a great fan of The Jerrell sound;I much prefer Rayna Gellert.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Anyway I’m just idly curious. I just found it interesting that M prefers the sound of his cheap Generation whistle to his Sindt whistle (I just checked and Sindts seem to go for $500+).

---

The whistle comparison is interesting... since not sure what justifies the expensive whistles?

Physics wise it's a vibrating column of air pressure, open at both ends. The body, materiel doesn't really affect the sound volume or tone; as many many studies of wind instruments show. The overall bore diameter and conical taper vs cylindrical, makes difference in tone, but shouldn't play role in manufacture or price. The ends play a role in impedance, the bottom end or finger hole relative diameter (and a ibt with wall thickness); but more so the fipple end plays bigger role, the size and angle. 

---

Wow, hot topic!

These sort of details are great fodder for the various forums where whistle players hang. 

Truth is, some high end handmade whistles are too clear, and clean sounding for some or the tone is 'wrong'. Also, tuning is to be considered, but that's more of an issue with the low end. One can spend ten to $500 or more on a whistle. Instrument acquisition syndrome does not discriminate.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

quote:

---

Originally posted by imapicker2

In light of the discussion ,I find this amusing.--------

maestronet.com/forum/index.php...divarius/

I have two: each cost under $400 each,but I am cheap and happy.

---

ha thanks!

whoops, edit of the spoiler:
Tommy Jarrell is not impressed by the Strad, and says that he paid $10 for his fiddle and he wouldn't trade it  :-)

I guess it's a very personal thing ...  

 

---

Likely the set up was far from what he's used to. Who knows when that fiddle was played last, might have needed some waking.

A high end fiddle will make your lack of technique stand out, along with every mistake you make  

Still…I wouldn’t say No to having a go on Martin Hayes’ fiddle! Hahahaha…

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

This reminds me of a story a customer told me about his teacher. The teacher was at the time a young performing player. One day he was speaking with Oistrakh and complaining about his violin that he didn’t think allowed him to play well enough. He told Oistrakh “Maestro, if only I had a violin like yours I could sound more like you.” To that Oistrakh responded “Hand me your violin.” He then played something on the violin and drew out a glorious tone. He handed the violin back and simply said “No, you couldn’t.” That ended up being a defining moment in the player’s life.

Also, I find it amusing that fiddling enthusiasts and classical enthusiasts often take such different views of Vuillaume's violins. The former often sneer at Mark O'Connor for playing a "high-falutin' eye-talian fiddle" while the latter often malign Hilary Hahn for playing on a "poor man's Strad." Fritz Kreisler often played a Vuillaume but let audiences think he was using his Guarneri to avoid scrutiny. In Vuillaume's own time, Paganini was a close friend and supporter. Vuillaume copied the Cannon several times when Paganini brought it in, but all of Paganini's other instruments tend to be forgotten because of the fame of the Cannon. Sometimes you just can't win!

---

Just curious...what kind of violin/fiddle do you play, Rich?

Me: beat-up looking old German violin (says Morelli-"stradivarius copy" inside). Picked by my teacher and paid for by Mom when I was in 7th grade ( Mom really wanted to buy me a "New" one but my teacher somehow talked her out of it LOL...however Mom was still grumbling on the way home, did not feel she got her money's worth...Beat-up old violins should be cheap! Best to have a shiny new one without a scratch! :-)

Before we leave the land of tinwhistles, here's the history page of the clarke website: clarketinwhistle.com/our-history
If you watch the video you'll see not only James Galway, but also Mary Bergin, presumably playing a Clarke.

Interesting video! I have a Clarke, the one with the gold diamonds that can not be tuned… :-). One of these days I do wanna learn to really play it.

I don't think fiddles should be "inexpensive". Regardless of ability, below a certain price point it's difficult, though not impossible, to find instruments that are playable and sound halfway decent.

I wish all of my instruments were more valuable than they are! I just can't justify the expense now.

I think there are other factors such as environment. If I had a really nice instrument, I'd be afraid to take it out of the house! Whereas if I were a professional, it would be part of the job.

To be sure, taste is anything but objective, and sometimes you just have be tolerant and strong, but if you don't have to, why subject yourself to sights, sounds, smells and things you come into physical contact with that singularly don't appeal to you? Why spend countless hours with a screeching harridan or dull blabber-er of a musical instrument if you can help it? Listen to your gut sensibilities and instincts. There's got to be a reason why our senses & sensibilities evolved the way they did over the millennia.

NCnotes - Are there tinwhistles that can be tuned? I've never seen one, but I haven't seen them all, by any means!

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Just curious...what kind of violin/fiddle do you play, Rich?

---

For the majority of my life I've played violins made by my great-great-grandfather. The first one I played was the one that made me fall in love with violins and it had been played by my father as well before he went to music school. It had been broken twice and had been repaired after each accident, but the second repair left the violin sounding  dull, so my father just put it in its case and didn't play it for decades. When I was little he would open the case for me as a treat periodically and he'd tell me the violin's story. I was smitten with the violin, so my father decided to ask my grandfather if he could restore it. He did, and it sounded good enough that it became my everyday violin until I left for college. I would often rotate through our violins for performances, but I played the one violin most of the time. 
 

When I was in high school I used one of my grandfather's violins for orchestra because it was less fragile and I'd switch to a different violin for concerts. 

When I left for college my father recommended I leave my main violin at home because it was fragile, so I took a different violin by my great-great-grandfather instead and played it until graduation. I took one of his last violins with me as well for playing outdoors.

After I made my first violin, I played that one primarily for several years. Now that I sell violins I tend to rotate through them so they're being played and not sitting. 
 

I've always enjoyed playing a variety of violins, and I would often choose one that I thought suited what I was playing at the time. 

Wow you have access to a lot of violins, so I guess it makes sense that you don't only play One!! :-) I would probably be the same way if I had that many available...that sounds fun!

Doug, yea, the Clarke D-whistle I have is just One Piece. Basically, a hollow stick with holes in it...you can't tune it at all...that is a step below the Generation, I think! My daughter (silver flute player) ordered it off the internet for a lark (she has a habit of collecting blowable things ... from Renaissance fairs, crafts fairs, etc...and she also made her own flute by drilling holes in a pipe, for a school project...:-) (The pipe flute is very heavy LOL...but actually sounds ok when she plays it.)

Whoops misread your earlier question, Doug!

Yes most whistles are a bit tunable…they pull the headpiece thing in or out…(sorry not a player, so don’t know exactly how they do it! )

Yes, I looked it up and I see what you mean. You can slide the mouthpiece in or out, the way you tune other woodwind and brass instruments. Apparently some brands are just held on by friction, so its easy, but Generations are lightly glued on, and you have to break the glue joint with hot water. Also, Generation whistles are available in six keys, not just C and D like Clarke. I guess that's kind of what I thought you meant by "tunable."

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

NCnotes - Are there tinwhistles that can be tuned? I've never seen one, but I haven't seen them all, by any means!

---

Yes, most tin whistles can be tuned.  As long as it has a separate fipple (the mouthpiece), you can likely tune it.  The cheap ones ($10-20) that have plastic fipples you can heat it up in hot water, that will expand the fipple and if there is any adhesive, soften it.  It can then be slide and/or removed/replaced.   I've tuned all my cheap whistles that way.  You can also tweak them a bit.  The molded fipples usually have a hollow in them you can fill with putty and get a slightly better sound from the whistle.

Most better whistles, in plastic or metal, have a tuning slide just like you would find on orchestral woodwinds and brass instruments.  

Some whistles are one piece and cannot be tuned.  

This is the place to shop for whistles --- https://mcneelamusic.com/
You could browse if just interested in learning more and seeing which ones are tunable.

Re Mary Bergin, the Generation whistles with the red fipple can be tuned via the technique mentioned above.  I don't know if the ones she is known for playing are older and of higher quality than the ones available today.  One of my cheap whistles is a red fipple Generation.  It's playable but harder to control than my other cheap whistles and much harder to play in the top half of the upper octave than my better whistles.    

-Ken

Thread drift alert!!

I almost started a whistle thread to address in more detail much of what has been said, but I lost a bunch of typing so I didn't do it. Mary Bergen definitely plays/played an original Generation, which are better than the various versions that came out after the plastic mould needed to be replaced.

wrench13, haha!
And who knew we had so many whistlers here on a fiddle forum! :-)

I love my flute friend's whistling...she'll do all these little riffs, soaring above/around, while I hack away steadily at the tune...:-)

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Wow you have access to a lot of violins, so I guess it makes sense that you don't only play One!! :-) I would probably be the same way if I had that many available...that sounds fun!

---

My father and I used to make violin comparison recordings every so often and then quiz each other to see how accurately we could identify the violins for fun. When we had other players over, we often did blind tests to see which violins were preferred by listeners. I think it was a great exercise to train the ear to listen for the character of each violin. I consider it one of my greatest achievements that one day I was able to make use of a mental sound signature I'd developed of my father's violin. I played my own violin twice in a row but imitated the sound of his violin the second time and successfully convinced my father that I was playing his violin. When comparison tests are brought up, there's a lot of emphasis on the audience being unable to discern violins from one another. While I agree that most listeners will struggle to identify violins, I do believe that acutely attuned listeners are much more accurate (perhaps not perfect, but markedly better). I think that's a skill that can be developed and it's one that needs practice to maintain. It's been so long since I've played the violins in the comparison recordings now that I don't know that I could identity them anymore. When I was playing them constantly it got to be fairly easy to tell most of them apart. 
 

This is my segue back to the original topic. Since the sound is not the deciding factor for price, there really isn't much reason to use price as a means to determine whether an instrument is suitable for folk music. You pay for provenance, workmanship, condition, and regional style. Of course there's some expectation that the more expensive a violin happens to be, the more it will do as a performance tool. However, as is often pointed out, you can find plenty of expensive instruments that sound mediocre and plenty of cheap ones that sound excellent. Sound is fairly subjective, and while players in general will be fairly consistent in their evaluations of a particular violin, they will disagree much more on which one is the best. 
 

Inexpensive is not a dirty word. The only caveat is that if you set your target price too low you will find instruments that are made too poorly to have much potential and they're not worth the time, effort, and cost it takes to improve the sound. The violin market does have a sweet spot between $2000 and $5000 where you can find excellent value for the money, good setup, and versatility among multiple styles of you look in the right places. This range tends to be attractive to everyone because it gives access to high quality factory fiddles and decent old German workshop fiddles, even the occasional French violin that's has some repair done. First time buyers using rental credit buy heavily in this range, so shops with rental programs tend to be stocked to reflect this. Buy what fits your budget and get the best sound you can through practice and good setup. 

This guy - Ezra Azmon - once asked to try my old $50 pawn shop fiddle (of course, $50 back then is like $60 now!). After a couple of minutes, he handed it back, with the pronouncement that, "It is a good violin for folk music - but not for Classical":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tabfrn9DRAE