I find myself predisposed to dislike Hadelich's version of the tune. Rather than finding I'm wrong I find it is what I expect - a highly talented classical violinist who can't find a fiddler's groove. Otherwise, it's fine I guess.

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

I find myself predisposed to dislike Hadelich's version of the tune. Rather than finding I'm wrong I find it is what I expect - a highly talented classical violinist who can't find a fiddler's groove. Otherwise, it's fine I guess.

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I agree that the Hadelich version is a little square, although I'm not sure he should be faulted for not playing with "groove" here. I posted the other two videos because I wanted to show that Howdy Forrester didn't play the tune with any groove himself (I was a little surprised when I listened to his recording), and because O'Connor did record with what you might call groove.

The tune is not an Appalachian old time fiddle tune, so it doesn't have a strong backbeat as has become more and more popular among old time players over time. It's a rag, a style which is characterized by taking a melody and adding syncopation to break it up, hence the phrase "ragging the scale." The tune isn't actually a syncopated tune for the most part, but it follows some of the melodic patterns of ragtime music.

We should also keep in mind that "groove" is really a modern term that has been applied to fiddling by people who came of age at the time that the word was popularized and carried it with them into other musical genres and it wasn't a term used by the players who recorded the source material for most of the canon. I think it's often used imprecisely to discuss fiddling. 

Yes, "groove" isn't easy to define. I'd be interested how you would define it more precisely. I can think of it from the other way of "no groove" which might be thought of as straight, timid, fey, even academic to a certain extent. In some sense I hear a groove in Howdy Forrester's playing that I don't hear in Hadelich's version. Partly I hear Hadelich "reading" where I hear Forrester "playing". In any case, somehow Hadelich sounds more academic, like there's some distance between the performer and the performance.

I'm curious what others think and I hope there are more responses.

The O'Connor version has a fiddle flow ....I like that version the best.

I was listening to some early 1920's blues/jazz records on "Blues Before Sunrise" and he said they were playing with a bit of "swing." This would be similar to "groove," and contrasted with "straight" or "square." This was long before the "swing era" of the 1930's. This is also partly a change from a "two beat" with a brass bass, to "four to the bar" with string bass. Also the change from banjo to guitar in the rhythm section.

I'm with Brian. I hesitated to even listen to them but he specifically said he hoped for more responses...

Howdy could have played it slower, reminded me of the bluegrass players who think speed is the goal. I like Howdy when he's playing bluegrass better than in this setting. From the first notes it sounds pretentious and manufactured to show off. And why the polka band?!?

O'Connor has that Texas swing undertone and, er, swing (aka groove) that just oozes from his playing.

Hadelich sounds like he's playing classical music, or a bowing exercise piece, particularly in the arpeggios. As Rich said, an etude. Sounds perfectly played but doesn't sound like fiddling at all.

I suppose groove is a subjective word. What I hear is the bow stops, and at times the bow seems to even lift from the strings and is returned. There are rests written in where it happens most obviously. That breaks the flow and I notice Howdy does it at the end of phrases too.
Can you dance to it? Then it has groove. Does it make you want to move? Then it has groove. I wish there were solo fiddle versions from all three players. Having a band gives you a groove already.

Ultimately, I don't care for the tune no matter who is playing it, just seems like a show off piece with jarring intervals to me. I'd rather listen to a fiddler with solid timing and less than perfect intonation playing a basic version of "Sally Gooden."

I with you Chickenman! Not a fan of rags in general. Had a guitar player once who knew hundreds of fingerpicked rags, each as forgettable as the next. Somebody must like them, weren't me.

Maybe I’m alone in it, but I really enjoy rags. I get a bit tired of tunes that don’t have much harmonic variation after a while, and something that modulates is a welcome respite. One of the old time associations in my area had a very lively rags-only jam going for a while and I really wanted to check it out, but it was too far away from me to be practical and it fell by the wayside with the pandemic. I need to go back and see if I can find one of the tune lists they sent out to potential participants…

I’m a little torn between the performances of the tune. I think I like Hadelich’s arrangement pretty well and I appreciate it being available to print out. I don’t want to play it the way he does, though. At moments I think he gets into a bluesy spirit, but there’s a stark contrast between those moments and the arpeggiated passages that he plays in detachè for some reason—I think this is what makes it sound unlike real fiddling, where the bowing is generally much more fluid and uninterrupted in its inertia. I like Forrester’s version pretty well, but it too seems to be missing something. I like the O’Connor version’s swing and its fluidity, but in the end it seems to me that as nice as it is, it’s perhaps the biggest departure from the rag style of the three. I think the tempo needs to be fairly quick to evoke the “wildness” the name suggests. Maybe the ideal version hasn’t been recorded yet.

About groove, this is my thinking: groove is characterized by a sense of playing that emphasizes the backbeat (maybe the West African influence), a subtle push and pull of the beat without distorting the rhythm, and/or a bending of pitch or addition of small slides to add emphasis to dynamic notes. I think the term is often conflated with the idea of being “in the groove,” where the playing of several musicians becomes so closely knit that they play as one unit expressed through multiple voices, much like a vocal ensemble that sounds great because the voices and vocal formants of the singers are so closely matched. Being “in the groove” like the needle of a record player is a sort of arrival at the essence of the tune, where the player has dropped into the track set out for him by the previous players. That’s the kind of thing where a player will play a tune through several times, but a certain iteration will make the listener say “that’s the one!” I see that as fundamentally different from playing with groove, one type of playing is centripetal (trying to arrive at the core of the tune) and the other is centrifugal (exploring the fringes of its identity).

Still sounds like a classical guy trying to play fiddle music.

i think i like hadelich's the best.

i don't think he is trying to sound like a fiddler... more treating the tune as a piece of music he is interpreting. he does some nice things with it.

that being said, i'm okay with not listening to this tune ever again. haha.

OK how about fiddlers trying to sound like classical players?

O'Conner plays Paganini

https://youtu.be/e9OWQpNlQog

It's remarkable he can play it at all. His intonation sounds off through much of it though.

Mark should take a lesson or two. Seems his technique is flawed. 

This is fully in tune and frankly quite amazing, played by a kid (as far as this old man is concerned).

Caprice no. 5

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Originally posted by wrench13

OK how about fiddlers trying to sound like classical players?

O'Conner plays Paganini

https://youtu.be/e9OWQpNlQog

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I think you mean O'Connor plays O'Connor (unless you were just being facetious). It's one of his own compositions. O'Connor moved into the classical realm a bit a while back and got interested in writing for the classical setting and for orchestra. While Paganini's caprices expanded the technique of violin players forever, I wouldn't say that this set of caprices does that so much as it adds a different flavor. This particular caprice seems to me to blend the patterns of Locatelli with a bit of Phillip Glass-like progression. 

As far as musicians trying out classical, you might compare Chris Thile's recordings of Bach on mandolin, which inspired a wave of players to play Bach. It's become commonplace now for kids at bluegrass gatherings to show off their chops by playing a bit of a partita. Results vary. 

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Mark should take a lesson or two. Seems his technique is flawed. 

This is fully in tune and frankly quite amazing, played by a kid (as far as this old man is concerned).

Caprice no. 5

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What's especially impressive about this recording is that she uses the original Paganini bowing. Many excellent violinists have recorded this caprice but changed the bowings to make it easier.

I'm glad that you, at least, got the joke, Rich.

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

I'm with Brian. I hesitated to even listen to them but he specifically said he hoped for more responses...

Howdy could have played it slower, reminded me of the bluegrass players who think speed is the goal. I like Howdy when he's playing bluegrass better than in this setting. From the first notes it sounds pretentious and manufactured to show off. And why the polka band?!?

O'Connor has that Texas swing undertone and, er, swing (aka groove) that just oozes from his playing.

Hadelich sounds like he's playing classical music, or a bowing exercise piece, particularly in the arpeggios. As Rich said, an etude. Sounds perfectly played but doesn't sound like fiddling at all.

I suppose groove is a subjective word. What I hear is the bow stops, and at times the bow seems to even lift from the strings and is returned. There are rests written in where it happens most obviously. That breaks the flow and I notice Howdy does it at the end of phrases too.
Can you dance to it? Then it has groove. Does it make you want to move? Then it has groove. I wish there were solo fiddle versions from all three players. Having a band gives you a groove already.

Ultimately, I don't care for the tune no matter who is playing it, just seems like a show off piece with jarring intervals to me. I'd rather listen to a fiddler with solid timing and less than perfect intonation playing a basic version of "Sally Gooden."

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And why the polka band?!?

The cheesy polka band sound is a major turnoff and distraction for me.

Possibly because he wanted to, simply thought it sounded good, gave the feel he wanted? Howdy's recording does have a polka like rhythm to it... but not sure why that is problem. Reminds me what was popular my parents generation, back when fiddling was still mostly associated with rhythmic/dance music, solid rhythmic feel was a primary focus. Yes, you can dance to it. Like lots of fiddle and dance music, is two-beat oriented, his recording is follows that, very steady downbeat oriented help give forward drive dance feel; and the tempo feels right for that. My parents/aunts/uncles also might have found very difficult sit through, and rather want to go out on the dance floor (at least tap toes to). Many younger generation still find this type of music appealing. The accompaniment hardly a distraction in this context... not only fits just fine, but is part of what seems like the intended goal. Not sure who harmonica player was on some of those sessions, but it's pretty wicked good. Howdy's recording didn't seem intent as a stand alone solo fiddle dance music; nor to have slower swing feel; nor necessarily "Bluegrass" (depends on how define that label, though note that often also similar very fast 2 beat rhythm). FWIW, lot's of similar popular tunes like Clarinet Polka, similar fast tempo 2 beat dance feel. Here's Howdy's Clarinet Polka recording (also wicked harmonica).

Not sure what meant "cheesy"; maybe just unfamiliarity, ignorance of music, listening; or people, that folks like what they like?

As far as Augustin Hadelich's playing, obviously doesn't seem to be about same values; certainly not dance, or any strong rhythmic feel. Rather some other ideas, not exactly sure what? Like his OBS, overall lacks sense of steady beat; timing issues, little sloppy, includes, rushing and dragging in places, and thus random uneven tempo, so lack of drive or strong rhythmic feel.
 

As related, but bit of aside, in mentioning "Rags" - From what I can tell, a lot of fiddlers here like rags. Esp in key of C, tend to lend to rag feel.

Though like many "labels" over time, there is sometimes some differences of what "Rag" means; as the term gets loosely applied in tune titles, like Hornpipe or Blues, even "Jig"... can't really go by the title.

Rags and Ragtime is especially difficult messy, musicologists can't even agree; to exact origins, and then how it's later evolved with other influences; further that was also bit of marketing term, for example from Tin Pan Alley composers, to capitalize on a popular trend/fad. A good book on history is "Rags and Ragtime" by David Jason and Trebor Jay Tichenor; which covers much of this. In the Country, and fiddle world, they also picked up on songs/melodies that maybe started in the realm of "ragtime", but then adapted them to fit more music/fiddle style.

Similar to label "Blues"; there is a bit of "I know it when I hear it" - when folks think of playing a Rag, despite title. I do find many OT fiddlers in overall general sense, still associate it bit more with the feel - rhythmic/dance syncopation feel; bit more than harmonic form -  i.e. "ragged rhythm", applied to related duple meter March, Jig, and Cakewalk.

Some of the rags sound kind of like polka music.

And then there's Ragtime Annie. Now, was it named as such because there was a tune called "Annie" that was somehow put to ragtime OR is it about some rich lady named Annie, who became poor and therefore it was 'rag-time'? Or named as such by some insidious time-traveller, who knew we would be discussing ragtime and rags, and wanted to throw a fly in the ointment?

Don't try this at home.

I might add that a lot of "country" rags played by string bands don't modulate to a Trio section the way the classic piano rags often do. Examples would be "Pig Ankle" and "Beaumont." I wonder why rags seemed to be so popular in Texas in the "golden era?"

I think the “wicked harmonica” is an accordion, a staple polka band instrument.

I thought it was an accordion too, but when I listened again the other day it sounded like a harmonica.

I need to listen more carefully, but I think it might be both. I can't find any discographical information for those sessions either.
Also, if you follow alaskafiddler's link to Clarinet Polka and listen to the rest of the playlist, the accompaniment on most of the tracks is much simpler and subdued. A nice selection of tunes too!