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I have been curious for some time as to whether or not I am playing various common fiddle tunes at the right speeds. I realize that personal preferences have something to do with this. I've been looking for a list of tunes with keys and speeds. I finally found one, "Pete Showman's fiddle tune list". Most of the tunes I've learned are on the list, along with a lot of others. It just seems strange to me that all except the obviously slow songs are listed at 90 bpm. I'd guess that 90% of the tunes are listed at that speed. Could that be correct? Are there other lists like this online somewhere? I'm 77 years old and have been at this now for 3 or 4 years. I'm thinking that I may finally be ready to sit in with friends and take my turns. I've been playing guitar and singing bluegrass music for about 60 years, but really want to be a fiddler.
I think the only time tempo (speed) is considered is if you're playing for a dance, and even then it is variable. Tempo could be from as slow as your 90 bpm up to and beyond 120 depending on the dancers and regional preference.
Feel free to play faster or slower as you heart desires.
Edited by - ChickenMan on 12/14/2024 08:19:42
It's a good question. One answer is, of course, that tunes can be played at any speed you choose. In terms of recorded music a great deal of it is played well over 100BPM, even in early recordings. In my experience tunes for Contra dances want to be played around 115BPM or higher for experienced dancers. One important consideration is how well the player can play fast. A sprightly tune played fast but without noticeable tension is (to me) a delight. When tension is apparent it ruins the effect.
I have begun to add the BPM of tunes I have transcribed from recordings in recent years. I seldom play them as fast.
Edited by - Brian Wood on 12/14/2024 08:57:09
90 bpm is plenty for a 3 or 4 year fiddlers reel, 110 would be a fair old lick, 116-120 Amazingly fast, (EDIT:pro level), if you want to get all the bells and whistles in. But i wouldn't want to go below 90 bpm for a reel. Some stuff just doesn't work at slower tempo's.
i practice tricksy bits at ridiculously slow tempos, (between 60- 90 bpm), Only if i know how they should feel at the faster tempo's. 90 bpm being the slowest reel i would want to play. otherwise it turns into a slow Hornpipe with me. With stupidly complicated ornaments.
i'm talking 2 minims....half notes ....Taps of the foot, to the bar.
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 12/14/2024 11:37:23
I suggest skipping the lists and just listen. Listen to YouTube videos of jams in different places and of groups with different skill levels. Listen to fiddlers in your area and those you hope to play with.
I think your target tempos depend on your playing goals. If you want to develop technique, stylistic intricacies, contest tunes, etc., start slow and work in all the notes and details. If you just want to be able to get out there and jam, you might want to push the speed a bit.
90 bpm is too slow for OT jamming in anything but a "slow jam" aimed at beginners or at learning new tunes. There is still some regional variation, but the dominance and influence of the Galax/Clifftop sounds as perpetuated through recordings, videos, and large festivals has pushed the typical jam tempo to 120-135 bpm. Stage, contest, and "hot jam" performances are often even faster. The more laid-back festival jam tends to hit around the 100-115 range. Of course there are outliers -faster and slower- in any setting.
There are hazards to learning and practicing both ways. If you take my "just get after it" approach, you may have a lot of fun but never really capture nuances of tunes. I find it a lot harder to play slow and get all the notes in than to "round off the corners" and play at Clifftop speeds. OTOH, learning strictly the "right" way takes a lot of time and severely limits the jams you can participate in as you learn. It also requires vigilant attention to the rhythmic side of things so that you develop the timing, energy, and feel for the music.
When you're playing with others, find a consensus. When you're soloing, do what the fingers tell you.
quote:
Originally posted by bacfireI suggest skipping the lists and just listen. Listen to YouTube videos of jams in different places and of groups with different skill levels. Listen to fiddlers in your area and those you hope to play with.
I think your target tempos depend on your playing goals. If you want to develop technique, stylistic intricacies, contest tunes, etc., start slow and work in all the notes and details. If you just want to be able to get out there and jam, you might want to push the speed a bit.
90 bpm is too slow for OT jamming in anything but a "slow jam" aimed at beginners or at learning new tunes. There is still some regional variation, but the dominance and influence of the Galax/Clifftop sounds as perpetuated through recordings, videos, and large festivals has pushed the typical jam tempo to 120-135 bpm. Stage, contest, and "hot jam" performances are often even faster. The more laid-back festival jam tends to hit around the 100-115 range. Of course there are outliers -faster and slower- in any setting.
There are hazards to learning and practicing both ways. If you take my "just get after it" approach, you may have a lot of fun but never really capture nuances of tunes. I find it a lot harder to play slow and get all the notes in than to "round off the corners" and play at Clifftop speeds. OTOH, learning strictly the "right" way takes a lot of time and severely limits the jams you can participate in as you learn. It also requires vigilant attention to the rhythmic side of things so that you develop the timing, energy, and feel for the music.
This is great advice. As a long time jamming banjo player, I came to the fiddle late (aged 60) and have now been at it for five years. My main goal from the get go was to be able to play my fiddle in a comfortable, run-of-the-mill, friendly jam, because I love to play with others. I realize now that I will likely never get up to 120 bpm AND capture all the nuances of the tune AND stay in time. If it ever does happen, it's not likely to happen soon, and then age will likely slow me down. Thus I have worked hard at "rounding off the corners" as you say, so that I can play with others at 120 bpm, if that's where it's going. That being said, most of the jams I play in don't play at that speed (closer to 100 - 110) I would guess), and the ones that do go to 120+, I probably have no business playing in anyway, or I bust out the banjo. It helps that I don't typically play in OT jams anyway, where there is fairly strict adherence to playing in a very certain way and speed.
We always played 116 bpm for dances and 120 if the caller wanted a higher pace..but our local jams usually hang around 100 bpm...
i have never heard a recording of a reel played by an FHO member at 120 bpm. i have attempted it but it sounds ridiculous. Seems only pro's can play at these tempo's ...And above. Why is that?...I can't get my head around it? Nearest was @Old scratch at around 116 bpm, and myself sounding rediculous at 120 bpm.
Just somebody record themselves, and post say "Soldiers Joy" at 120 bpm with a click track, and i will believe it.
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 12/20/2024 15:27:28
Well, if the caller wonts faster you have to oblige whether it sounds ridiculous or not.
It's for the dancing not the listening...
Cant say I ever played soldiers joy at 120, but I can sing it that speed.....
Still ain't heard a recording with a click track by a non pro , at 120bpm everyone says they can but i ain't heard it yet
Edit: not specifically "soldiers joy" just any reel they can play at 120 bpm with a click track.
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 12/20/2024 15:51:30
Seems to me that a solo fiddle reel at 120 bpm and above is pro territory?......
It is pretty fast, for a proper reel. but to me, most old time tunes aren't as demanding as most Irish/Scottish reels.
I'll have to get out the ol' clicker and give it a go.
Folk seem to "talk" about 120 bpm as a normal speed, but to me it is incredibly fast for a reel. Kevin Burke seems to play around 116, Frankie Gavin a lot faster,and countless pros play at 120 or above, but hardly any normal human beings play at these sort of speeds....Why is that ?...
Maybe some 'normal human' lacks the technique, it does take a very light pressure from both hands.
I played with the metro-ticker set at 120. I've never played a dance at that tempo, maybe a jig, but I'm pretty sure since that first or second dance, where I started a jig set too fast, the tempo never gets above 117. That may seem so arbitrary, but 10 minutes into a 15-20 minute dance, 120bpm becomes a whole lot more effort. The dancers who want it that fast are generally middle sand high schoolers.
Now, bluegrass songs? That fast and much faster but you only have to play once or twice through before it's someone else's turn.
Edited by - ChickenMan on 12/20/2024 22:01:22
No click track, but here's a dance medley that I think might be about 130 bpm at times. The last tune is "Soldier's Joy," but I agree with Billy that these are played as American breakdowns, not like Scottish/Irish reels.
youtu.be/X_VeD7v0zQY?feature=shared
I can't tell if they're "normal humans" or not.
To the OP - the list you found are just "Pete Showman's" suggestions or preferences. There are no set tempi attached to various tunes. 100 to 115 bpm would probably be about right for me.
Edited by - DougD on 12/21/2024 00:24:00
BTW, in "O'Neill's Music of Ireland" "Soldier's Joy" is listed as a hornpipe, not a reel, so there's no reason to try and play it at 120 bpm to begin with. You can still hear its hornpipe roots in the three repeated quarter notes at the end of each part.
quote:
Originally posted by DougDBTW, in "O'Neill's Music of Ireland" "Soldier's Joy" is listed as a hornpipe, not a reel, so there's no reason to try and play it at 120 bpm to begin with. You can still hear its hornpipe roots in the three repeated quarter notes at the end of each part.....
....if O'Neill's is the version of "Soldier's Joy" you play.
Edited by - ChickenMan on 12/21/2024 09:36:55
It's pretty close. Also pretty close to what's in "Ryan's," which is in a section of special dance tunes at the back.
Doesn't really matter - historically, "Soldier's Joy" is just one tune.
Edited by - DougD on 12/21/2024 09:41:45
Just need to hear a "solo" amateur player with a click track at 120 play something like "Masons Apron"...(with variations...lol), at 120BPM or more, to make me believe it is possible for an amateur fiddler like myself to have a target to aim for. And to try to work out how you are doing it. i know pro players can do it, and i could provide endless links, but i've not heard any amateur fiddlers on FHO do it. All of this "Yeah but, no but" stuff is meaningless. I have tried myself but failed miserably.....If you can do it, post it..... And i'll shut up....Maybe....
.
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddleJust somebody record themselves, and post say "Soldiers Joy" at 120 bpm with a click track, and i will believe it.
I'll take the bait and try to post my pitiful fiddlin' (see the bottom), but first I'll say that I *may* have overestimated speeds somewhat. I don't pay much attention to bpm and such, don't use metronomes like I know I should, and I'm around a bunch of bluegrassers and my exposure to the OT crowd is mostly through Clifftop and fiddle events in SW VA. That said, here are few YouTube vids and my metronome-aided rough best-guesses of tempo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvgAI0oKzqs - Harry & Lee at 110 or so (but hey, he's a rabbit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwRpn7RqDy8 - Our own Shawn Craver puttin' it *all* in at 130
Jams - None of these seem like barn-burners to me (except the last one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtfo7Uu4bIo - 120
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRjj20oBckg - 120
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vV7FVXFyVg - 130
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyffI4j5jB8 - 130
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3uELgybyHo - 125
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7HNHBX8pAg&list=PLetXx79-C1hvyKF0hP5iHPFDKugsRDgGa&index=17 - 120-125
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqPkBagKWVg - 140ish
Contests / performances:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_py-e-K-tc&t=12s - Flatfoot contest @ 135
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CUnmwA8gSw - 130
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9YPORK5rrY - 125-130
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVs6paDbDPI - 140
Then there's Michael Cleveland... 165+?? I can't even hear that fast, but Mike don't miss a thang!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W4e5r3PsdA -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYSSGUHKvg8
And finally, for a limited time only in the FHO Media Library...out of tune & out of time...it's me scratching out Soldier's Joy at 120:
https://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/media-player/audio_player2.asp?musicid=14963&archived=
Edited by - bacfire on 12/21/2024 10:22:04
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenManI played with the metro-ticker set at 120. I've never played a dance at that tempo, maybe a jig, but I'm pretty sure since that first or second dance, where I started a jig set too fast, the tempo never gets above 117. That may seem so arbitrary, but 10 minutes into a 15-20 minute dance, 120bpm becomes a whole lot more effort. The dancers who want it that fast are generally middle sand high schoolers.
Depends in part on where you are. Here's some clips of the very well-respected and in-demand MO dance fiddler, Bob Holt, at dances. They like 'em fast in MO and these not an unusual tempos for him. And no teenagers to be seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOypPmbEUCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbWUoCo5Y5c&list=OLAK5uy_nD9h-dsgj4Wq1_mUZbijPuHipoiyDJxU0&index=24
Nice fiddlin Bacfire! And thanks for quick response...... You cant be an amateur....?
Suppose i meant like an notey Irish reel with all the trimmings . Are those reels or breakdowns. i don't know the difference. being a Brit.
And here is Frankie Gavin doing what he does at around 120 bpm he was playing solo when he recorded it on a phone or something. Like i say 120 and above in Irish music seems to be Pro territory. But if you get in a session around here 120 is the norm because everyone is covering each others mistakes. You can stop and come in again 1 or 2 bars later, and nobody will notice. But to play solo at these tempo's relentlessly, is totally beyond me...No light touch there either. Full on reels with all the trimmings.
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