If so, I've never come across it - that is, a name for that non-musical, gnawing sound you can get along with the movement of your bow on the strings? I find that when a fiddler is accompanied, that sound is usually buried, but is often noticeable when a fiddler is playing solo. Not a squeak or a squeal or a squawk - but in the centuries of violining, there must have been a name put on it?
I call it the scratch. One the hardest things to EQ out of micing an acoustic fiddle. Some fiddles just seem to produce more of it than others.
Rosinance ?
quote:
Originally posted by wrench13I call it the scratch. One the hardest things to EQ out of micing an acoustic fiddle. Some fiddles just seem to produce more of it than others.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, but probably we are. I'm going to try to attach a recording with an extreme example: I had a pick-up on my fiddle, and didn't have much time for a sound check, if that would have made any difference. I found it so discomiting that I cut the medley short and put the fiddle away. After that, I decided to just play into the mike; don't know if that's any better, but I don't hear as much of that noise.
Edit: Okay, I don't know what happened to that sound file I tried to upload. Probably just as well!
Edited by - Old Scratch on 12/09/2024 11:19:12
There's this 'honk' at 58 seconds. A nanosecond lapse in decision. My hope is only fiddle players can hear it. But it's terribly pronounced. I can't stand it. But if I worked on it all day, it would only get worse. Sometimes you have to settle on the best part of the dung pile. One with the least. . . .
Can you make that sound at will? Or is it random and unpredictable?
FiddlerJoeBob
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Originally posted by Old Scratchthat non-musical, gnawing sound you can get along with the movement of your bow on the strings
Sometimes, of my bow isn't quite tight enough, it humidity has facilitated hair stretch, I can hear the contact between the bow/hair/stick and it's an odd....gnawing describes it pretty well....sound. Eh? Still no name for it.
Edited by - ChickenMan on 12/09/2024 16:01:27
Yes, besides making nice notes there is a fair amount of noise produced by bowed instruments. (I mean the unavoidable kind) There are harmonics and overtones and also a constant rubbing, gritty sound underneath every note that is just the nature hair biting string. You can produce if you just bow a muted string. That may be what you're talking about? With the fiddle close to your ear you hear it all. Luckily overtones and harmonics are short lived and dont project very far out. The rubbing sound is an unseparable part of every note. It's just the nature of bowed instruments. Like the song says, "Dont let the sound of your wheels drive you crazy"
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Originally posted by fiddlerjoebobCan you make that sound at will? Or is it random and unpredictable?
FiddlerJoeBob
Most of the time I don't really notice it, and if I do, it doesn't bother me - when I do think about, I just wonder sometimes if it SHOULD bother me, or if anyone else notices it. Well, on that one recording I couldn't upload, it really bothered me at the time, hearing it through the speakers, and there's no question that it was noticeable to anyone with an ear, and would not have been appealing. And it bothers me now when I listen to that recording. I don't think I've tried to make that sound. I think Peghead gets what I'm talking about, what he calls a 'rubbing' sound - I'll try to find a good example on-line.
I sure hope you can find an example.
I thought phrasing was the way. Bowing like breathing. My problem was the inhale, could be an up bow, could be a down bow, but it doesn't belong in the melody. Some times it's a double stop that I want to show. Again, it doesn't belong. It's taken twenty years to leave it out. Twenty years to know. But old habits are hard to break.
I do understand there are enigma that a fiddle just has. Otherwise it would be a horn or?
The teeth of the bow hair biting the string. I've heard it called the "TH" sound; it's a useful sound to focus on to help control overthinking, a bit like focusing on the breath when meditating.
I hear and airy sound...like breathing...I figure it's just the fiddle catching its breath...lol.
If I understand what you’re referring to, it’s often called a hiss. There is a certain amount of noise that can be heard when the bow contacts the strings under some circumstances, but this noise is only audible for a few feet. Concertgoers will occasionally mention that they can hear this hiss when they sit in the seats closest to a soloist, but if they happen to move back a few rows, it completely disappears. When a violin is miked too closely this type of noise can come across in recordings.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 12/11/2024 06:23:19
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Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulWhen a violin is miked too closely this type of noise can come across in recordings.
Good to know!!!
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Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulIf I understand what you’re referring to, it’s often called a hiss. There is a certain amount of noise that can be heard when the bow contacts the strings under some circumstances, but this noise is only audible for a few feet. Concertgoers will occasionally mention that they can hear this hiss when they sit in the seats closest to a soloist, but if they happen to move back a few rows, it completely disappears. When a violin is miked too closely this type of noise can come across in recordings.
It's not what I would think of a "hiss" - or a "breath" or a "whisper". More like, as someone said, a "rubbing" sound, or, as I put it originally, a "gnawing" sound. Down low, so to speak. I won't go further trying to describe it - and now that I've been listening for a good example on youtube, I haven't come across one, although I seemed to be hearing plenty before I started all this ... !
sounds to me like the ol' "low humidity/rosin/pressure'' syndrome...
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Originally posted by Old Scratchquote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulIf I understand what you’re referring to, it’s often called a hiss. There is a certain amount of noise that can be heard when the bow contacts the strings under some circumstances, but this noise is only audible for a few feet. Concertgoers will occasionally mention that they can hear this hiss when they sit in the seats closest to a soloist, but if they happen to move back a few rows, it completely disappears. When a violin is miked too closely this type of noise can come across in recordings.
It's not what I would think of a "hiss" - or a "breath" or a "whisper". More like, as someone said, a "rubbing" sound, or, as I put it originally, a "gnawing" sound. Down low, so to speak. I won't go further trying to describe it - and now that I've been listening for a good example on youtube, I haven't come across one, although I seemed to be hearing plenty before I started all this ... !
That may be more of a soundpost adjustment issue.
quote:That may be more of a soundpost adjustment issue.
Thanks for the tip - never thought of that!
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Originally posted by Old Scratchquote:
Originally posted by wrench13I call it the scratch. One the hardest things to EQ out of micing an acoustic fiddle. Some fiddles just seem to produce more of it than others.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, but probably we are. I'm going to try to attach a recording with an extreme example: I had a pick-up on my fiddle, and didn't have much time for a sound check, if that would have made any difference. I found it so discomiting that I cut the medley short and put the fiddle away. After that, I decided to just play into the mike; don't know if that's any better, but I don't hear as much of that noise.
Edit: Okay, I don't know what happened to that sound file I tried to upload. Probably just as well!
I just think of it as "bow noise".
That's a good search term "bow noise"; this video pops up Techniques for Dealing with Bow Noise! - which explains some in layman terms, might find useful. While it's for aimed at electric violins or PU, but some applies to acoustic especially when micing in recording or live situation; as very close mic is getting a bit like bridge pickups or EVs, which is taking out the room, air and 3D space of complex blended acoustic environment; and more bridge sound; thus can tend to make bow noise more noticeable.
There are different kinds of bow noise at different frequency bands. Some are more just transient attacks, others are more as bow travel. You can play with EQ to somewhat try diminish it. Sweep the spectrum to identify the frequency band(s). It will be different for each persons set up; might start to aim around 2.5K to 4K. There can also be a higher one, but as get older might be less noticeable.
As pointed out, can also address more at the source. For mic situation, simply backing up, adding space/air, even 6 inches helps. Pointing a mic away from bridge can also help. Can also play with different mics.
There are other source factors before mic/PU that contribute. Type or condition of bow hair, hair tension, humidity, rosin, strings, and the bow itself will play a role. Efficiency of bowing to generate desired sound, signal to noise ratio. But of course, source starts with the player, bowing technique, pressure/bite, tone production, can have a big effect on efficiency, to more good signal (tone), less noise.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 12/15/2024 14:21:39
Thanks for that, George. I believe have a term now for what I'm talking about: "bow thump". Well, Iooking at it again, I think I'm talking about two aspects of the same thing: the sound of the bow changing direction on the strings, which in my, um, "style", is almost continual. On the audial "surface", so to speak, that can produce what I characterized as a "gnawing" sound; deeper down, there's the "thump" that, according to the guy in the video, should be "eaten" by the (acoustic) violin - which strikes me as consistent with Rich's suggestion about the sound peg (mis)placement.
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Originally posted by Old Scratch...the sound of the bow changing direction on the strings, which in my, um, "style", is almost continual. On the audial "surface", so to speak, that can produce what I characterized as a "gnawing" sound; deeper down, there's the "thump" that, according to the guy in the video, should be "eaten" by the (acoustic) violin - which strikes me as consistent with Rich's suggestion about the sound peg (mis)placement.
How loose are your fingers and wrist when you make bow changes? If they are locked at all, it'll make movements rough and uneven. Changing direction in bowing is (or at least used to be) a big topic of discussion among players. Samuel Applebaum was fortunate enough to get the players of the golden age of recorded sound to discuss this topic during interviews for his excellent book With the Artists.
It seems like something that should be simple, but it is actually a very complicated topic, as smoothness and continuity of tone during changes requires a conscious effort and ample preparation.
If technique is at issue, a useful approach toward improvement is to focus on flexibility and looseness from the wrist down to the fingertips, then to practice making bow changes on a single slow held note while attempting to make them as seamless. The goal is to make it as inaudible as possible when you change direction (no surges in speed or pressure).
i'm guessing it must be like any amplifier, mechanical or electrical. Just got to tweak parameters, bow weight, bow speed rosin, sounding point, finger pressure etc. until you get the desired "signal to noise ratio" ?
