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Originally posted by gmatkin

This is probably a question for fellow low end low cost fiddlers like myself.

Twenty years or so ago, I bought a braided violin carbon bow from English maker Tim Phillips. It immediately became my favourite, and I've used it ever since. It was unbranded and given the cost I'm sure it was made cheaply in China but well chosen by my supplier 

I could get it rehaired but given the cost of doing so, I'm wondering... Have inexpensive Chinese bows got better over the years, and if so how do fiddlers identify the good ones please?

Would I be right in thinking the 'pernambuco veneered' hybrid models are likely to be on the dark side?

I'd prefer a transparent sounding bow to a dark one or a thin, over-bright one.

Or should I just go for a well known brand?

For background, I'm in the UK, and play English country dance music on a relatively inexpensive warm to neutral fiddle, so far as I can tell. I'm not great technically, but like to think I play effective danceable tunes.

Thanks, Gavin 

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Carbon bows at the low end have gotten better over the years. There are a number of economical options on the market that play well for the money. 
 

CodaBow is the most recognizable brand, but there are others that produce decent bows. I've been impressed by GEWA's  offerings. When they brought out a veneered carbon bow, it got the attention of a few teachers in my area.

I would not relate veneered bows to darkness or brightness of tone. Carbon is an extremely stiff material, so that trait is what really makes the biggest difference in comparison with wood.

For many years, I've been satisfied with my P&H bow.
https://www.pandhbows.com/
They sell hair to fit which you can replace yourself. It's pretty easy; it's good hair but not the highest quality available (like if you go to a bow maker or repairer).

I purchased mine, and the hair to fit. from International Violin, but it appears that they no longer carry it. There are many other suppliers, for this bow, if you search the internet.
 

As usual used by Dave Swarbrick, I understand!

Gavin, after 20 yrs on the same bow, I'd think you were happy with it 15 yrs ago, and then got used to it. I learned that a good bow upgrade, to one that connects to your fiddle better, opens up more feel, has real worth. On the other hand people buy 100 bows from China and usually 1 or more are really good. Hey, sell the rest on Reverb!

Thanks. That could so easily be the right way to go.

Gavin

For some reason FiddleHangout is eating my messages before I finish and can post them. I'll try again.

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I wouldn't mind hearing about the physics of what makes one violin bow different from another. Stiffness and weight and balance-point are understandable and somewhat intuitive. The rest not so much. I've never paid for an expensive bow, and get by with low cost carbon fiber bows based on the aforementioned criteria. I sometimes wonder how there can be so much difference. The price range doesn't make much sense to me either. Say my bow costs $80, how can bows be worth 20 or 30 times that? If anybody can actually explain some of it to me I'm listening. Surely at least some of it is status and confirmation bias...?

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

For some reason FiddleHangout is eating my messages before I finish and can post them. I'll try again.

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I wouldn't mind hearing about the physics of what makes one violin bow different from another. Stiffness and weight and balance-point are understandable and somewhat intuitive. The rest not so much. I've never paid for an expensive bow, and get by with low cost carbon fiber bows based on the aforementioned criteria. I sometimes wonder how there can be so much difference. The price range doesn't make much sense to me either. Say my bow costs $80, how can bows be worth 20 or 30 times that? If anybody can actually explain some of it to me I'm listening. Surely at least some of it is status and confirmation bias...?

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A bow maker and restorer I know once told me that the character of a bow comes in large part from the way the stick is thicknessed and cambered just behind the head and by its overall thickness and camber. The wood's density will inform the maker's decisions so that the finished bow will have a proper amount of flexibility but also enough firmness that it doesn't just mash into the string during the bow stroke. 
 

A really great bow will feel like it works on its own or like it anticipates your movements and will draw a lush and complex tone. It can improve your playing because it responds so well, so there is truth in the idea that "you get what you pay for." 
 

With cheap bows you simply can't expect that kind of response and complexity, but playability can be very good if you find one that suits you well. 
 

Like any high-end item, status plays a part in value, but as with violins, the status tends to originate from a certain quality that sets the bow apart and makes it attractive to a particular market. For example, violins by the Amati family were at one time considered the finest instruments one could buy among collectors and players. As concert venues changed and instruments began to be modified for performance in larger and larger spaces, Stradivari and Guarneri del Gesu instruments seemed to respond especially well to these changes, and as a result their prices began to eclipse those of the Amati. Considering bows, Tourte remains the most valuable because the bows were the pioneers if the modern bow and they can elicit an incredible tone. In recent decades, Sartory bows have seen a meteoric rise in demand, as many players feel that the strength of their sticks supports modern repertoire especially well.

Some bow makers argue that sound radiativity is a critical measurement of a bow's performance, and a good bow will transmit vibrations in a way that sets it apart. A simple test some players and collectors use to get an idea of this is to let the bow bounce under its own weight on the string and to see how long it will continue ricocheting during a sustained bow stroke (the idea is that a good bow will continue bouncing longer before coming to rest). Playing spiccato passages will tell you a lot about a bow's handling characteristics. 

My dilemma is that my fiddle is a tenor, so quite obviously there aren’t any bows that are specifically made for tenor. I added a weight to the tip of a violin bow at the start for a year or so which was a big help. Then I purchased a baroque style cello bow from China which better again but the thread in the frog stripped out after 18 months. Now I’m playing with a horrible cello bow which I think is 3/4 size. I don’t really know what to look for. It definitely needs extra weight to power the cello strings. The instrument is played under my chin so the bow is resting directly on top of the strings which is different to the cello position. A good baroque cello bow could be the go but good ones are as dear as poison.

I have a fiddlerman Carbon Fiber Bow that I picked up for around $80 shipped and it was world of difference from where I started. I gradually want to get a better one, than a better one, and...

Even an inexpensive fiddle can be tweaked and set up to play easier and sound reasonably OK. A good fiddler can make it sound decent. A cheap bow that plays like a baseball bat with hair on it is never going to get any better, there's no tweaking or adjusting it. And even a good player is going to be hampered by trying to throw this worthless piece of wood (or plastic or whatever) back and forth to make music. Bows are your connection to the fiddle and the music that resides in it.

Antique auctions (the country kind, no Christie's etc), garage sales, estate auctions are great places to buy fiddles at reasonable prices, especially if they need work or parts. Often bows are included in these, many needing hair or some repair. I used to dabble in these fiddles, and ended up with a fair number of bows. I was surprised when I brought 3 of these with me to a local violin luthier, to have my main one rehaired. I asked him to check out these bows and valuate them. Totally blown away when one was valued at $750 and another around 500. Added a bit of cash and traded up! Just sayin there are ways to get a better bow without spending a big wad. Good hunting, Gavin.

Thanks. But my questions run deeper, too. The hair attaches at 2 points on the stick. The third point is moving contact with a string. Within that changing triangle something apparently happens in the stick that telegraphs to the string, and some sticks do it better. What exactly happens in the stick that affects sound and playablility?

To illustrate my question, imagine a simple stick flexes at, say, only one point along its length (like a partly closed hinge). How will that differ from a stick flexing equally along its whole length, or from flexing differently at different points (assuming all 3 systems have the same response to increased stress).  Sawing along the string doesn't give the stick information about the contact point, or does it? If so, what is the information?

For bows to vary in complex ways, I am guessing that the 3 systems won't have the same response to increased stress, and the secret lies there. Different materials in varying thickness along their length must produce different responses in compression and release that can't be achieved by my simpler systems.

Your ideal bow has increased "radiativity" meaning the bow will bounce longer. Is that all, or are there other factors in the stick that can actually affect the feel and the tone of the violin as well?

I'm sure blind tests are conducted all the time when people try bows, so I won't say everyone is being fooled into buying expensive bows. But I want to understand what objective data says rather than just what people feel when they play. A good bow might feel like magic, but I don't believe in magic. Something is making it happen.

Gavin, as I understand it, your question is, that given the price of a rehair on your current bow, could you get something better now for that price. My advice is first to find out how much a rehair is in your area. I don't really know, but I suspect $85 might be typical over here. I'd suggest you take it to the rehairer (who hopefully also sells bows), and ask their advice. I didn't know where Tonbridge is, so I looked it up and it looks like there must be possibilities nearby, and if you've been playing for dances you must know some other players you could ask.
As you can see, few people on this forum really know much about bows, and those that do aren't really in a position to help you much. I don't think you're likely to get anything too good for $85 over here, unless you stumble across something like wrench13 described, which has happened to me too, but its not really like shopping. Many people are happy with the $80 bows from Fiddlershop, but remember that once you add in transatlantic shipping and whatever duties and VAT there might be, it won't be the $80 bow it is in Florida. I'd be looking at your local resources, or plan a trip to London.

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Originally posted by DougD

Gavin, as I understand it, your question is, that given the price of a rehair on your current bow, could you get something better now for that price. My advice is first to find out how much a rehair is in your area. I don't really know, but I suspect $85 might be typical over here. I'd suggest you take it to the rehairer (who hopefully also sells bows), and ask their advice. I didn't know where Tonbridge is, so I looked it up and it looks like there must be possibilities nearby, and if you've been playing for dances you must know some other players you could ask.
As you can see, few people on this forum really know much about bows, and those that do aren't really in a position to help you much. I don't think you're likely to get anything too good for $85 over here, unless you stumble across something like wrench13 described, which has happened to me too, but its not really like shopping. Many people are happy with the $80 bows from Fiddlershop, but remember that once you add in transatlantic shipping and whatever duties and VAT there might be, it won't be the $80 bow it is in Florida. I'd be looking at your local resources, or plan a trip to London.

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Thanks for your thoughts.

My usual fiddle tech is really good, I think, but won't rehair a £100 bow because they'd charge me £60 for doing the job, which they consider too big a fraction of the new price. At least, that was the price the last time I asked.

I suppose I could go back and see if they can supply me one they'd recommend, but there weren't many to try last time I was there.

Some Fiddlerman bows are sold over here (though not the whole range as far as I know) and the braided/weave model looks just like the heavily played Tim Phillips supplied bow I already have. I do wonder whether it's the same model from the same maker!

Gavin 

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Originally posted by gmatkin

Some Fiddlerman bows are sold over here (though not the whole range as far as I know) and the braided/weave model looks just like the heavily played Tim Phillips supplied bow I already have. I do wonder whether it's the same model from the same maker!

 

Gavin 

 

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Can't say if it's the same model, but I have been happy with Fiddlerman bows. I think they may have recently changed what bow they sell though. And it costs a little more so can't say about that. My bows are several years old.

Several years ago when I still lived in L.A., I went to Benning Violins and Metzler Violins to find a better bow than the cheapo ones I'd been using. Both places put me in a room with a veritable plethora of bows at my new price point (which I now forget what it was) and invited me to go at it. Anyway, despite sampling many European bows, I ended up with one made in China. Yeah, the Chinese one was the only one that was round, but I also must say it gave me the most satisfaction of the bunch. Best tone, best feel, best weight, best aesthetics. I'm now a happy bower. I'm out of the market.

@Brian Wood the physics involved with what a bow actually does is in many ways even more complex than that of the fiddle. Aside from the very good points you bring up above, Young's Modulus and EMC (Equilibrium Moisture Content) also come into play, and worse, because with wood, each bow has to be considered unique unto itself. With plastics and carbon fiber, those properties can be known and are predictable. Wood - not so much; depending on lots of factors that can only be generalized, like species of wood. Pernambuco is generally considered a better wood for bows than say snakewood, but a good snakewood bow with numbers that approach ideal might play better then then a fair pernambuco one. Where in the branch or trunk was the bow fashioned from? The organic nature of wood, far from being homogenous, makes the archetier's job even more complicated! I doubt the great ones knew or know how to quantify all these factors mathematically; like all great fiddle makers, its more a matter of the feel and sound of wood blanks that directs the skilled hands to make a truly superior bow! Its making my head hurt to think about the physics! It is WAY more fun to, like Lonesome Fiddler, sit with that plethora of bows in a quiet room (and lots of spare time), and hear just how different bows affect your playing.  A great way to kill off a rainy Saturday.

Gotta be one at least worth something!
 

100 bows, $66

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Originally posted by wrench13

@Brian Wood the physics involved with what a bow actually does is in many ways even more complex than that of the fiddle. Aside from the very good points you bring up above, Young's Modulus and EMC (Equilibrium Moisture Content) also come into play, and worse, because with wood, each bow has to be considered unique unto itself. With plastics and carbon fiber, those properties can be known and are predictable. Wood - not so much; depending on lots of factors that can only be generalized, like species of wood. Pernambuco is generally considered a better wood for bows than say snakewood, but a good snakewood bow with numbers that approach ideal might play better then then a fair pernambuco one. Where in the branch or trunk was the bow fashioned from? The organic nature of wood, far from being homogenous, makes the archetier's job even more complicated! I doubt the great ones knew or know how to quantify all these factors mathematically; like all great fiddle makers, its more a matter of the feel and sound of wood blanks that directs the skilled hands to make a truly superior bow! Its making my head hurt to think about the physics! It is WAY more fun to, like Lonesome Fiddler, sit with that plethora of bows in a quiet room (and lots of spare time), and hear just how different bows affect your the playing.  A great way to kill off a rainy Saturday.

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I think that must be right. With an organic material such as wood, Young's modulus will surely be different in different directions, and may even vary along the length of a bow.

Gavin

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Originally posted by martyjoe

My dilemma is that my fiddle is a tenor, so quite obviously there aren’t any bows that are specifically made for tenor. I added a weight to the tip of a violin bow at the start for a year or so which was a big help. Then I purchased a baroque style cello bow from China which better again but the thread in the frog stripped out after 18 months. Now I’m playing with a horrible cello bow which I think is 3/4 size. I don’t really know what to look for. It definitely needs extra weight to power the cello strings. The instrument is played under my chin so the bow is resting directly on top of the strings which is different to the cello position. A good baroque cello bow could be the go but good ones are as dear as poison.

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Viola bow maybe?

There are many complications to consider with bows. The hair is attached at the plugs and ferrule, but it is not a completely rigid material. Hair (at least, good hair) has a natural elasticity to it that contributes to the handling of the bow. The stick varies in thickness throughout and has a camber that dictates the way the bow responds both under tension from the screw and when applied to the string. As the bow is tightened, the curve of the stick is flattened somewhat. In other words, a lot of variables are in play as the bow moves. The bow maker’s skill lies in his ability to “read the wood” and to shape it in a way that allows it to perform. There is great depth in these things, and anyone willing to devote enough energy and time to careful study will find that there is no finality to its pursuit.

There are all kinds of measurements that can be taken to attempt to quantify the wood’s properties and draw conclusions about its potential. Anyone can make extensive measurements and come up with impressive-looking charts and graphs to suggest what will make the best bows, but that does not tend to translate to any meaningful results. There are countless measurers but few good bow makers. Over the ages, the best bow makers have been those with the most experience, tool skills, and intuitive ability to understand wood. Tourte didn’t conduct engineering studies to find out that permambuco was a good wood to use—he realized that a very dense and plentiful wood that could be had for almost nothing (at the time) that could be found at any shipyard would work incredibly well for bows and quickly incorporated it into his trade.

Players need to have the direct experience of playing bows to get a sense of their qualities, and the overall impact of playing a bow or violin is something that’s not entirely describable in scientific language. That’s not a fault or shortcoming.

Compare it to studying a painting. You could analyze each square in a grid and determine how much of each color went into it to make an exact color match. By doing that you could make a copy of a painting that would have accurate color matches and would follow the same proportions, but you’d lose the personality of the brush strokes that breathed life into the original and the copy would look dull and lifeless.

Differences in bows are more discernible with musical excerpts that put them through their paces. If you’re just playing basic legato bow strokes in the same part of the bow, it will be harder to tell several bows apart than if you play passages that involve various articulations and bow strokes.

I bought a Fiddlerman braided bow. Cosmetically, it's a bit smarter than my old Tim Phillips-supplied carbon bow, but in other ways it seems to be pretty well indistinguishable.

So I haven't made a big leap forward, but I do have a functioning bow that doesn't yet need new hair!

Gavin

Good luck with it Gavin. I still have 4 wood bows sitting around, if you weren't across the pond, I'd send you one on the arm as they say.

Thanks! That's a kind thought!

I'm thinking that at least some braided bows are probably made using the same or very similar moulded sticks fitted out with frogs and other details in slightly different ways.

That would make sense, as moulding and fettling the stick will likely be the techiest, most investment-heavy part of the process.

Gavin



Gavin

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

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Originally posted by martyjoe

My dilemma is that my fiddle is a tenor, so quite obviously there aren’t any bows that are specifically made for tenor. I added a weight to the tip of a violin bow at the start for a year or so which was a big help. Then I purchased a baroque style cello bow from China which better again but the thread in the frog stripped out after 18 months. Now I’m playing with a horrible cello bow which I think is 3/4 size. I don’t really know what to look for. It definitely needs extra weight to power the cello strings. The instrument is played under my chin so the bow is resting directly on top of the strings which is different to the cello position. A good baroque cello bow could be the go but good ones are as dear as poison.

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Viola bow maybe?

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I scavenged the threaded bits from an old cello bow and fixed up the trusty old baroque cello bow which will keep the playing rolling until decision time. I'll very likely get a high tension cello increadibow and a 4/4 carbon cello bow in the new year.