I agree, Lee. I tried to write a longer response but the internet ate it.

I hear ya Lee.
Steering clear of Recreational Outrage rampant right now.

It’s a generational thing?
I went to a backyard event and us older folks wrote our names on the labels.
The kids all wrote their names and then underneath, their pronouns.

"Each to its own" said the old lady as she kissed the cow.

The problem might be the English language. We have specific pronoun issues...you can't always say it how you mean it with our awkward pronouns. Of course partner / husband aren't exactly pronouns, but sometimes it's hard to get specific anyway.

What gets me the most, though, is pronoun case. 

Lee, I don't think that the use of "partner" is a pronoun issue, nor an attempt to be politically correct. Rather, it's a catch all term that might include a boyfriend or girlfriend (same sex or not), husband or wife (same sex or not), and another dozen arrangements that I haven't thought of. When some introduces me to their partner, I just assume that it's a person in their life to whom they are committed, likely romantically, but maybe not. More than just a friend, in other words. None of my business otherwise. I think it's rather succinct and expedient.

Yeah, I like grammar rules. A pronoun is very specific, and they/them can indeed be ambiguous, I've used that device for most of my adult life when talking about someone, telling a story and what not, "then this person walked up and they said..." but when the person is standing in front of me and presents this, I hold my tongue. I really want to ask,"how many do you have in there?" because they/them mostly implies more than one person.

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS Rather than getting pissy when someone who has used they and them their entire life to refer to multiple people has a hard time with remembering oh this individual wants to be referred to as a group. They seem to have no trouble making up words (like rizz),  make up something to call yourself. It almost seems like more attention is paid to the they them because of all the fanfare announcing their special words and then multiple confrontations when someone gets it wrong.  

If you are a they them, I will make an effort to remember, but piss off if you get bent out of shape because I botch it once and a while. I'll be dead eventually and you won't have to deal with me and my generation not doing your bidding regarding pronouns.

End of rant. I spent an hour in standstill traffic this evening, well after rush hour, and it has me in a mood.

I have good friend whose daughter (still going to use that type of word) is a they. It is confusing to have a conversation about them (hey there it is) because I still have conversations about actual groups of people who are still referred to as them, because that's what the word is for.

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS...

 

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There have been many attempts to introduce new, genderless pronouns, but none of them have caught on, "hu, " to replace he and she, for example. 

I like doryman's approach. "Partner" seems perfectly reasonable to me, although its sometimes confusing whether i refers to a romantic or business relationship. "Boyfriend" and "Girlfriend" seem incongruous to me for middle aged (and up) people, and I always chuckle when folks refer to their "hubby" or "dear wife." Always sounds to me like a character in a comic ballad like "Three Nights Drunk," but I've never been married, so maybe it makes sense in that relationship. In any case, "partner" is certainly not a pronoun. I can't say that I've really been bothered much by all this, but I guess I don't get out much.
Peggy, be glad you don't speak German where nouns have genders, sometimes surprising ones (to me).

My granddaughter's name is Ella, which to her Panamanian, spanish speaking aunt means HER.. I still smile when the aunt first heard the name and asked, "Why would anyone name a child Her?"

What are a Donkey's pronouns??













Hew/Haw :)

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

My granddaughter's name is Ella, which to her Panamanian, spanish speaking aunt means HER.. I still smile when the aunt first heard the name and asked, "Why would anyone name a child Her?"

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Sorry, Ella means 'SHE" in  spanish..

I haven't been called on it yet. If/when I am called on it, I'm afraid I'll have to muster up the good old stupid gaping stare. I just don't feel obliged to follow the internal identity-searching of complete strangers. I don't like to listen to them read their poetry, either. Or describe their latest adventures tooth-flossing. The point is, this may be important to them, but it is truly none of my business. Period. End. Dot.

I always found it funny that a lot of other languages use genderish pronouns for inanimate objects...they don't have an "It," like we do. And if you think about that...well it's just funny... the book...it's not on the table...she's on the table, the book is...she's right there waiting for you to read her. I mean, how would that change our view of gender if we spread out the idea to include all inanimate things. How would it change our view if, like in Russian...dogs are all SHE until proven otherwise...so...here in the U.S., we see a pack of dogs (run away...lol) and they are referred to as HE...any dog is a HE until it's known otherwise, and it's usually not important enough to find out the gender of a dog. But in the Russian language, maybe others too, but Russian is the one I took for a little bit and saw this phenomenon, you see a pack of dogs or even just a dog, and it's automatically referred to as a SHE...ie. instead of , "Oh cute dog, how old is HE?" like we would do here, in Russian it would be "Cute dog, how old is SHE," unless and until somehow it came up that the actual gender had some relevance. What I"m saying is the way we do it...everything's an it, or a HE, (except cattle herds), and so SHE is sort of a stand alone...like a sore thumb. I use HE a lot because I guess I feel like the grammar in our language just goes that way...but I do think it makes our awareness of gender in humanity as something, possibly strange, different, or even inferior if it's exceptional to the HE. I mean, I make bears all the time now, now that I have so many home duties and cannot play music hardly ever or do anything I'd love to do...so anyway, I habitually and nervously just make bears like a madman (lol...see, madwoman sounds off). I call them all HE...I refer to them...HIS legs are ready to be attached, HIS eyes are such and such...etc. But it's a grammatical thing...if I called one HER, suddenly it would be an outlier bear...a girl named TEDDY, stuck alone in the world of man bears...lol. I think that does affect our culture and might make people extra sensitive to gender language. But also it's true there seem to be a lot of gender issues going on and we obviously aren't equipped psychologically to know how to handle that. Remember the old Smurf cartoons? I thought they were cute, but having a little daughter the first time I saw them come on TV where we were, I kinda thought they might be bad for her, since all the cute little smurfs were male...and there was one that stood out like a sore thumb, only one smurffette. That was kind of weird. She watched it here and there...but I wondered how mentally healthy it would be for a girl or a boy either one, that being the female is a oddity in the world of smurfs...or should it be smurves...lol?

Oh I forgot...when I hear someone say partner, my first thought is they are lifelong companions, but not married. I don't give it a second thought...because it doesn't matter to me.

I just realized I get most of my cultural information from listening to ESPN radio, so I might be ahead of the curve in some areas and maybe a bit behind in others.

The way I think about is, there's a lot I don't know about a lot of things, so I just try to err on the side of being polite, trying not to be a jerk if I can help it, when there's really so little being asked of me.

A few observations of no significance:

- "In German, a turnip has sex but a woman does not." - George Bernard Shaw

- I spent many years living and working in Cree communities. In the Cree language, personal pronouns have no gender, so they don't have to worry about any of this. I assume that it's the same with many if not most if not all Indigenous languages.

- There's a tiresome power game that goes on with pc language. Usually there's some legitimate concern or problem at the core of the demand for change, but ... well, you know where it all ends up. Okay, it ends up with old folks like us mumbling into our soup.

quote:

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Originally posted by doryman

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS...

 

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There have been many attempts to introduce new, genderless pronouns, but none of them have caught on, "hu, " to replace he and she, for example. 

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How do you pronounce that? Hew? Who? No wonder that one didn't stick, kind of awkward.

Who is introducing these new premium attempts? Was it the individuals who want them or was it academics? If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Has that idiom been lost to the Internet age?

It appears I'm officially a grumpy old man.

Peggy, like dogs are he, cats are always "she" until proven otherwise.

I think in my geographical space cats are still a HE until/ unless there is some reason to refer to or realize an individual's gender...but, hey...good to know some places they are SHEs. It all seems to be cultural...the origins of the grammar...either it was born of culture or else culture has come to take the blame for our perspectives on gender because of our grammar...everybody knows our grammars oughta be home baking cookies instead of giving us this grief we don't need...lol.

Old Scratch - I think I know what he was getting at, but I believe I'd take GBS with a grain of salt!

I frequently refer to my long-time climbing partner as...my climbing partner. We've been friends a long time, he was my best man, we've had adventures, we're both married to Lynn. OK, we're each married to our own Lynn, but there it is. In my mind I recall that he is first and foremost my partner and best man. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread came up. Lately we've begun to share which body parts ache more. Constantly evolving relationship here.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I think in my geographical space cats are still a HE until/ unless there is some reason to refer to or realize an individual's gender...but, hey...good to know some places they are SHEs. It all seems to be cultural...the origins of the grammar...either it was born of culture or else culture has come to take the blame for our perspectives on gender because of our grammar...everybody knows our grammars oughta be home baking cookies instead of giving us this grief we don't need...lol.

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ow.