Using eyes, not about intonation, but other aspects to many other instruments.
Recent discussion asking about using eyes, visual, (fret markers, tape). The assumption (and responses) usually is directed to fine intonation. While that is an aspect, have to contend with fretless instruments, it is not the only. Possibly the question of fret markers, is about other common, more general issues, similar even on fretted instruments, keyboards, other fixed pitch instruments; to which there is a natural tendency to want to use eyes; look at fingers, count spaces/keys; to help them. So putting the fine intonation aside; a few common reasons folks want to use eyes come to mind:
A. Unsure about using their ear, in sense of sound of general note(s) in harmonic context of melody, scale/mode, or chord. (again, not just fine intonation, but overall). More so if an unfamiliar melody or harmonic context, don’t know how it’s supposed to sound at all. Often combined with some instruction, verbal or pictogram/chord/diagram, or TAB; which explain by referring to visual (rather than sound) identifying key/fret or by counting frets; thus can look at fingers/frets/keys to match and/or count. So starts with visual reference to determine for the right answer of note, rather than ear.
B. Basic aiming for distance/scale/spacing, getting an initial sense where the finger needs to land or working out how far apart note spacing (half step, whole step and so on), thus finger spacing for that instrument. Natural to want to initially look; esp at keys, buttons, or frets or position markers.
C. Idea of visualization in conceptualizing, mapping out the layout; scales, arpeggios, chords; both on instrument and fingering. Many folks naturally have belief in they are visual learners, thus feel the need to literally see physical instrument layout; and look at each finger; visually see fingering patterns, or shapes. Sometimes folks put extra visual markers like colored stickers on keys or fingerboards to visually assist in this.
Maybe there are others? How much or important is using eyes for these?
In other thread, brought up common questions/ideas many have about using eyes, visual;
...Wouldn't they help novices learn faster?
...Is there a down side to fret markers? [as just general visual aid to above]
Good questions. Depends on the person, and goals. Keep in mind... like many things, something to help initially faster doesn’t always translate in the long run, to overall faster progress or better; can hit limitations.
Possible downside to visual, question is related to above what purpose (A, B, C), how much or long to use visual, vs replacing it? Question also if might be avoiding other aspects/method, perhaps idea just kicking it down the road; or used in conjunction with developing those other aspects?
Some folks do become stuck, overly dependent on eyes, need to look at instrument/fingers (or TAB/notation); which then can have limitations. Some folks are not really aware of how much they need to look, or issues causes; can be difficult to break. Part might be something about learning methods/focus that might affect or shape neurological foundation and development; how brain processes info; developing different neural connections, pathways. Affecting how the brain directs fingers; and maybe to concepts of music. Visualization first, might create a less direct, inefficient path.
Just some thoughts. There are other much less visual first dependent alternatives and exercises might be worth exploring. While initially perhaps a little more difficult, poorer results, more mistakes, slower initial progress... give it time, can pay off in long term goals. (including help with fretless fine intonation).
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 10/12/2024 04:56:21
Thanks for the much deeper, detailed analysis that addresses my fret marker question. You provide lots of interesting information and perspective.
There is definitely a downside for me, in attempting to look at my left hand fingers while playing. Especially if i am playing an interval or double stop, or playing with a note given by another instrument/player/singer. There are no advantages at all. All i need is to know is how i want it to sound. Cranking my neck and straining my eyes wont help at all.
Although i do find that looking at the sounding point (reading glasses required), is helping me with my tone, i think, and hope that i will be able to stop trying to look at that also. So maybe an initial Peek is beneficial at first, but i will definitely stop it as soon as possible, and only return to it in emergencies.
Edit: i think that playing fiddle is a bit like those Spinning plate acts from way back, just got to keep your eye on everything in turn every now and again. But when they are all spinning you can take a breather and a look to see which spinning plate is in most need of attention?
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 10/12/2024 12:46:55
SOme instruments its just not possible to look at the finger position. I'm learning bagpipes at the moment (while the wife is laid up in rehab for a while) and with my set of small pipes, I cant see the noting on the chanter. Have to visualize it, which is what i do on fiddle. Even double stops, I visualize all 6 of the common double stop forms, makes it much easier to hit them dead on. That and using the 2 tuners on either side of your head!
If you want to be better at listening, shut your eyes.
Through some stroke of luck, I was able to come up with this Brainjo video from YouTube where he talks about almost this exact thing. I sort of remembered seeing it once, so I went looking for it.
It runs about 10 minutes and is called "Should you look at your hands when you play music." He takes a brain science perspective that is very interesting.
Thanks, iNteresting video!
In group playing, I need use of my eyes for other things…silent musical communication…looking at the lead player for change of tune (a nod, a meeting of eyes, or a smile)…and if I am leading, I look around the circle to give signals myself.
Today I was looking at the fingers of guitar player and got confused, and nearly derailed…(not good because I was the only fiddler today (dunno where everybody was- Ack)
Edited by - NCnotes on 10/12/2024 20:39:29
Another interesting thing that I’ve learnt through reading is that a lot of people tend to listen with their eyes to some degree so to speak. So if an acoustic guitar played through a processor to make it sound say like an electric guitar some people still perceive it as an acoustic guitar. If a fiddle has a darker stain some people think it sounds more mellow than a lighter coloured fiddle even though they may actually be the opposite.
Being mostly a by ear player once I learned the general idea of where my fingers needed to be on the finger board to make the right sounds, I rarely used my eyes to learn new tunes. But, when I started, I also spent a lot of time learning a bit of basic music theory - the idea of tones, and semitones, and how a scale in any key is constructed (T-T-sT-T-T-T-sT). That helped me to mentally keep tract of finger spacing and where my fingers needed to be. I've now been hacking on the fiddle for 12 years and can honestly say I hardly ever look at my fingers - playing old favs or even when learning a new tune. I guess we all learn differently and have wide differences of opinion on how one should learn to play a fiddle. For me it's purely a auditory/mental experience. Eyes for the most part are unnecessary.
Considering this, I can't think of ANY instrument where, after you become familiar with it, you really need to use you eyes to play. Maybe hammered ducimer or marimba/vibraphone, or difficult jumps around a piano keyboard? In some cases its not even possilbe, like the left hand of a 120 bass accordion - you just have to get to where you know where things are.
My playng has often been from sheet music or performing for an audience, though, where you need to keep eye contact, or read the music.
Edited by - DougD on 10/13/2024 11:47:40
quote:
Originally posted by DougDConsidering this, I can't think of ANY instrument where, after you become familiar with it, you really need to use you eyes to play. Maybe hammered ducimer or marimba/vibraphone, or difficult jumps around a piano keyboard? In some cases its not even possilbe, like the left hand of a 120 bass accordion - you just have to get to where you know where things are.
My playng has often been from sheet music or performing for an audience, though, where you need to keep eye contact, or read the music.
I hadn't thought about it much so I picked up my fiddle and find I see it peripherally but not directly enough to use for finger placement. As Doug suggests I don't look at my hands much playing other instruments, mandolin or banjo, except when making position changes.
When I play the piano from manuscript (which is what I now do most of the time because I'm addicted to classical), I often have to look at my fingers to properly put 'em where the notes are. If the manuscript orders me to play a veritable forest of notes, it's the only way I can do it.
On the other hand, if I'm playing from my trusty Zillian & One Irish Fiddle Tunes, it's only rarely that I have to look at my fingers...probably because the tunes are practically always in First Position and always in an easy key.
I've never even been able to see my fingers while playing an instrument...I think it would give me serious neck damage to try to angle my head that way...lol. I know lots of folks, from what I've seen on message boards, do need fret markers to learn fiddle and I'm assuming that also means they use their eyes to see their fingers...on any instrument maybe...I would never say don't do something that helps. But If I ever tried it, I think I'd end up with a bad pain in the neck. They do have little fret marker dots on the top edge of fretted instruments...but mainly I think that's for quick slides up the neck so you don't overshoot...you don't see your fingers, really, just that spot in space where you need your fingers to get to... a quick glance just gives you the assurance you're heading in the right place and when to apply those finger brakes.
But different people learn different ways...so whatever works to get them going is what they oughta do. Seems there'd be some point in time where they wouldn't need to look anymore.
I used to play a sort of game with myself by playing through stuff with my eyes closed. It's just a different thing...it's not really that you don't see your fingers, but that you don't see distractions...and you see the darkness of the insides of your eyelids so the music invades your ears with a little more purity...wrong word...I can't think of a right word there, but just the music is all your brain focuses on without all the visual distraction your brain has to sort out and keep busy with.
Recently I've been playing a tune that needed a C# on the E string..I put a 1/8 inch square piece of adhesive tape on the spot to help my Eyes get my finger to the right spot. It was very helpful..Then, I moved on.
When I went crazy and bought myself a cheap Chinese cello (bad mistake...I mean the cello wasn't bad but the player/learner was bad...lol...plus there was no room in our house for it...we were tripping over it wherever I put it), I resorted to putting a sliver of masking tape on the spot where I needed to go because cello is so different...the spaces are so weird and the fingering has to be done really weirdly...but I couldn't look...I just felt for the tape to put on my brakes sliding up (or is it down on cello) the neck. In my case, it didn't make me much better...lol...but it was the best i could do. I ended up giving up on cello, figuring I'd need at least 30 years' practice to ever get that, because, yes, it's even harder than harmonica, and just handed it over, for free, to the garbage collector, who picked it up, stood there and played the heck outta the thing one day...I'm like..."Here, this poor instrument deserves somebody like you more than it deserves a fumbler like me..." But yeah, I did use the tape once or twice in that situation.
I know two beginning cello players…
One has tapes on, he is doing well…
The other… well, let’s just say if I knew her better I would beg her to put tapes on! I think the sounds being emitted from her cello are sometimes not in the same key as the rest of us…
I play a lot reading music, so eyes there. I use my eyes when practicing bowing, making sure I'm tracking straight and the bow hair is flat on the string. I've seen some people who thrash all over and every which way with the bow and sound great, I'm not one of them. For intonation I use a tuner for practicing scales and arpeggios. My ear/brain is good a telling me "wrong" but is kinda fuzzy about "sharp" or "flat" so the tuner app is good for that and I'm getting much better with my intonation since I've started using it. For actual playing, looking at what I'm doing is a distraction.
Cello isn't the fiddle though, it's very accessible to the eyes, at least as much as guitar. I think the tactile use is tape is likely much more useful on a fiddle that the visual use, like for sliding up to C#.
Edited by - ChickenMan on 10/30/2024 14:52:47
when I had my cello no way could I see the fretboard while I played...lol...maybe I was just doing it all wrong.
In the past I used my eyes more in watching how others play. When I played I tended to just look at nothing in particular and go for it. Recently, making a point to watch my fingers while I play a tune I know well, I was surprised how easily it messed me up. So I've stayed at it and I think watching my fingers somehow re-enforces my memory.
And you also realize your fingers don't have to move as fast as you think they do.
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggywhen I had my cello no way could I see the fretboard while I played...lol...maybe I was just doing it all wrong.
Yeah, I suppose ultimately there's no point and I've only seen one person look at the fingerboard and he didn't know what he was doing for the most part. Seems the classical instruments were expected to be played while reading music most of the time anyway.
I use my eyes but how do I use my brain? This morning I noticed I started thinking of many other things other than what I was playing. I was watching but not really seeing...
I learned the cello first. Love it. Shoulder injuries from being run down by a giant on a ski slope ended my cello playing. I can play my electric cello, but why would I want to?
quote:
Originally posted by ErockinI use my eyes but how do I use my brain? This morning I noticed I started thinking of many other things other than what I was playing. I was watching but not really seeing...
Kind of reminds me of "The Darker the Night, the More I See"
Many folks use eyes, maybe staring at one hand or other... but not really to watch what they're doing, but just focal point, as to not be distracted, from thinking about other things might see; esp at bars or dances.
That pretty girl with hair all down behind, shows up with a mighty short skirt, wondering what's going to happen as she dances? Will be long enough before she has a new skirt? 
I like to look around and see my friends or look at the world. I used to stare at the floor and then realized it was better to close my eyes or learn to look around and enjoy the view.
