Ahhhhhhhh...this is all in our head!

I had the same thing this past weekend.

Breathe Breathe Breathe...is number 1
Second, trust your confidence and don't fear judgement. You are an excellent player..lol
I always try to remember the feeling of when it's over and how great that feeling is....then I try to slow it all down before the experience is gone. Last but not least, I lower my expectations!

SMILE SMILE SMILE...lol

I don't think this is your problem, but remember "Proper prior preparation prevents poor performance."
Beyond that, remember that those people are there because they are enjoying your music. They don't really want to see you cringe and grimace. You don't need to be chatty and smiling unless you really feel that way. I think it will get better with time, the more you do it, but I really don't know. I find playing for people a little exciting sometimes, but I don't usually get nervous.

You sure aren't alone in having those feelings playing for a crowd. And, the fact you were the ONLY fiddler there just made it that much worse. I sure don't have any tips for you, cuz I pretty much find myself in the same boat. I guess there are more experienced folks who will tell you the more you make yourself do stuff like this, the easier it gets. Still, for me at least, stuff like this is one of those really big issues that separates playing vs performing. Probably why I feel playing is so much more fun than performing, especially if your lucky enough to be able to do it with one or two like minded people.

Well behavior modification techniques are the best way to deal with fear/panic type situations. I used to play here and there back in the old days...not a whole lot but regularly...and loved every minute...I did interact and cut up some with the audience...keep an eye on them and make some kind of special connections with those who seemed very engaged, etc. Lots of eye contact helped the whole situation...Loved it. But then a ptsd thing from long ago sorta resurrected in me after some tough experiences, and I got to where I was really too nervous to function very well on a stage or playing in front of people, and it was not much fun. So...a few things that helped me back then...don't fight the nerves...don't try to not sweat or shake or feel nervous...just go ahead and be nervous and reassure yourself you will still be able to focus on the music more than the nerves because you accept that you're nervous. Being nervous doesn't stop us from doing things...as long as we don't put our main focus on fighting the nerves. Easier said than done, but helpful somewhat. The next thing that helped me was to try to make any kinda jokes or chat with audience and pull them in as a friend that way...if you are talking and laughing back and forth...they don't look like enemies anymore...they look more like friends. You build a human bond/trust with them. Also...you already know, we all already know...not everybody's gonna like our music, our playing...maybe not even like our faces...lol...and we know in advance and accept that that's ok...some might look critical...they have a right to feel that way and that's ok...your musical ability doesn't change if some people don't like it. That can't take our focus off of our music, that we love more than what think people are thinking about us. Also...you know you can't play perfect and realize the audience knows that too...sometimes I'd hit a bad note and just laugh, so they knew it was ok for them to laugh to. Then I'd say something after that tune, like I charge extra for the notes that jump out at cha like that...or I give out a nickel for every mistake somebody catches or just some stupid joke to remind myself that trying to play perfect is useless, lol...just settle for my best, and to remind the audience that I'm not Doc Watson, Jean Ritchie, Bobby Hicks or whoever. But, then the best thing for so many situations that cause debilitating fear is the behavior modification technique...it's basically the same as getting back on that horse as soon as you fall off...the more you delay, the more the fear grows and disables you. So...they called the technique, "Flooding," back in the 70s, when I had to resort to it just to live my life in any way...it means going into the situation you fear, that disables you, working through it as much as you can...trying to make it so when you leave the situation you are feeling better...don't leave nervous or panicky...don't leave, if possible, until you are feeling a little better about it all. Play everywhere you can...finally you'll just get sick of bothering yourself with nerves and fear and it just wears off and you will be calm again...but if you avoid it because you fear it...that's feeding the fear to make it worse instead of better.

I say all of this, having been through it myself through life and music, which is a part of my life...but in recent years my own personal experience has been no place to play and a degraded confidence in myself in every way...lol...so...if and when I ever get chances to play again, and I hope I do, I know I'll be going through all this again too, and it'll take a while to get it to where I have fun and love playing in front of people again. But I know from past experience flooding yourself with the fearful situation will work it out of you over time.

Mostly I played by myself...just me and my guitar...and I'd start the whole thing by using something I'd seen on Mr. Rogers do...of mr. rogers' neighborhood...he was getting ready to address some crowd somewhere and he asked the audience..."My name's Fred Rogers. What's your name?" And they didn't really know what to do...lol...like, who's that dude asking that to??? So he asked again...he said "I didn't hear it, what is your name?'' They all said their names together...kinda confused...and he said it was so beautiful to hear all their names together. Something like that...lol. Been a long time ago but that sorta helped me make some contact. Sometimes I'd stop everything and ask the audience, "Put your palms together like this..." they did as I did...then I said, "Good, now how far can you pull them apart?" We all pulled our hands apart...I said...do it again a couple of times and then said..."Oh thanks for that wonderful applause..." Lol...these are old jokes I guess by now...but any stuff like that to connect...make that audience a room full of friends, not horrifyingly critical strangers that you won't look at...lol. Anyway...like I said, if I ever get to play again anywhere, I'll have to emply these techniques for sure...my confidence has busted to pieces in every aspect of my life by now...and I'm not comfortable even being around people much...so...I'll be right there with you...both of us and probably a lot of others going through the struggle to focus on what we love and want to share...music...and not let undeserving fears be powerful enough to stop us. Keep going! You got this!

I found reframing the feeling of nervousness to excitement helped me in those early days. I'm the end, that's what that feeling is - you're excited to play for people and want to give them your best. 

You put in your time at home, you know what you're doing. Your friend isn't judging you, I'm sure. Neither is the audience - they want you to be successful, they are listening because it is enjoyable. Share your feelings with your playing partner, she likely has felt that way at some point. Heck, you probably already went through this back in your early days of violin, how did you manage then?

beta blockers

It is a good feeling when you know for sure your playing buddy has your back, and i am sure that they feel the same. If you have done your homework (which i am sure you have), the chances of any "fatal" errors is very small, and then they are at least halved by the support you give to each other. So it's just a case of putting the music across and enjoying the sounds you are making.

As always the more you do it the easier it gets. And instead of predicting failure, you say to yourself "This one always gets a lift when we change tunes, i can't wait to see if it happens again"...Or similar..

Good luck..And more power to your elbow !

 

Well, you find out how well one should know their tunes. And you find out how to roll over clams and stay on the beat. Just dial up your confidence without dialing up pride and ego. Also, know there's a difference between practice and rehearsal. I used to sit on my truck's tailgate and play while DW went shopping. (Never park in the middle of the lot.)
And don't berate and poopoo them that choose to not hide their lamp under a bushel.

You are not alone, I think you are in the majority. I would have no problem singing the Nat Anthem at the World Series, or delivering a televised speech to Congress, but this is the biggest barrier to sharing my music. You asked, what are the mental tricks to deal?

The only mental thing that helped me is that I was eventually worn down through poor performances to the point of not caring about what others thought. After years of playing in public at maybe 20% of the practice room I started thinking--WTH? I'm in this for me. No one else matters. Which is the reverse of what the other folks have said. You have to overcome your own criticism first.

I believe you have said awhile back you have orchestra experience, which means you can hide in the section to an extent but you still have to endure the scrutiny of your stand partner. What's the difference?

Recent months, I have been taking a Beta blocker--carvedilol--for hypertension, but this has also helped immensely against bow shakes and poor concentration. Alcohol helps, but only for an hour or so.

Edit:  BTW, good luck and Don't Worry, Be Happy--it doesn't define you after all

Thanks all!
Reading it all over, and absorbing.
Just knowing other people feel this too (or have gotten past it!) actually helps.

It feels the same as my Red Button recording anxiety…knowing that it’s going to be recorded or that there are listeners, makes me want to play Perfect and then that leads to anxiety, which leads to mental bumbles and finger fumbles…

I think I could eventually get rid of the “perfection” mentality…but I will never be able to chat up an audience like Peggy describes! I might be able to manage a smile (eeek) … as long as my flute friend does the talking…

(The true “performers” say they get energized, and play even better with an audience… I can’t imagine what it’s like to feel energized, instead of petrified…I will settle for just not feeling petrified!)

It feels the same as my Red Button recording anxiety…

I was going to make that comparison, and now that you mention it..... 

'stage freight' has the same cause; the 'fear of failure' causes the ego to want to be perfect.

There must be a ton of stuff written about this subject, and think I've read most of it. The basic step is 'preparation' , can you play your tunes in your sleep? 

Well, maybe no one can, but can you audiate your music, can you see the notes and which finger plays them in your mind without the instrument in hand, thats the kind of preparation I mean.  I dont know anyone who does that, but it has been a great help to me, and its a great booster for the confidence. 

There is no instant cure so in the mean time...'feel the fear and do it anyway'.  Seek out an audience to play for; open mic, busking, etc. The more you do it the less you'll fear. 

Also...... there is much truth to the old adage...

"Fake it until you Make it".

Don't feel like smiling... fake it, makes 'you' feel good.
Don't feel confident.... fake it, that'll bring it on, eventually.

Something that may help you get past the initial jitters would be to turn your back on the assemblage and directly face your partner. If the people even notice, they will probably assume that you are the accompanist or melody part supporting the lead or harmony part. Many people sitting in on scenes like this just consider the music something nice to chatter over.
If you play like I do, when you finally pause and turn around you may find that most have already left.
Best of luck. You will find that practice and repeated performance or exposure takes the sharp edge off of the nerves.

I think i"ve actually felt worse with the recording anxiety, mainly because there is no audience to chuckle with my joking or have some sort of communication with me along the way. Either way, it can be terrifying though...the good thing about recording is you know you can go back and do it again...but it feels so isolated...lol. Whatever the cause...the best treatment, according to psychologists dating back from before the 70s, is to get through it so many times you just get tired of being nervous...lol...sorta get numb to that fear. The great thing is people do get past it. I read one time John Lennon got so scared he would throw up before their early concerts...of course, they played for thousands...guess it'd really take a while to get used to that. But to NC or anybody else playing through the jitters and doubts...just think about all of us right there with you...not alone.

Stage nerves are a difficult and complex issue. I’ve heard a number of people recommend beta blockers as a remedy in the moment.

For me, a few things have helped me to avoid developing the issue. First, having the music under my fingers before playing helps a lot. It isn’t that I feel that I have to be practicing up to the last minute—in fact, I sometimes perform familiar pieces without practice. But the difference is that I’m playing pieces I know confidently. Anything new or less familiar I’ll run through to make it solid.

Secondly, my father had me start playing for people as soon as I could play a tune. He would play at nursing homes and I would come along a play a little bit. As I got older I began playing more and we played a lot of repertoire for two violins. Being in front of an audience that was so eager for music and so attentive was wonderful. I also took every opportunity to play that came along, whether it was chamber music, fiddling, violin duos, orchestra, or just playing with a friend. I do think there’s something to the argument that you develop stage presence by presenting yourself on stage over and over.

Third, I have always believed that music is about connecting with others. Through performance the player has the chance to share something deeply personal and meaningful with the listener. Although there are some audiences that are hyper-critical, most are looking for a basic connection with the performer. If you can find that and put yourself into a place where you’re attuned to what the audience likes, it becomes an urge to reach that place rather than a fear of failure. There’s an incredible magic in that connection, and you can see it in the way the audience reacts as you play; it might be the way they lean forward at times as if they’re trying to hang onto each note, it might be a gasp that someone makes when you play a passage that’s difficult (or at least sounds like it is), it might be the smile that come across a listener’s face , it might be the faraway look in someone’s eye as they experience deeply rooted memories that present themselves in response to music that moves them, or it might be a tear that comes to an eye in a moment of pathos. It’s not just the audience, either. Finding a connection with another player with whom you share an almost transcendental understanding is a rare and life-changing experience and it lends confidence to performance. Engaging with the audience or the other players is everything for me.

Honestly after you play for an audience of say 1,000 people, the size of an audience is not a factor. My poor sons, their first gig with me, when they were 11 and 13 respectively, was in front of an audience of about 3,500 people. THEY were scared doodooless. But now they are like me, get revved up and excited to be on stage. Just do it as much as you can and try to connect with the crowd, communicate thru the music - that nervous energy turns to excited anticipation.

"So my flute player friend and I played again in the rose garden gazebo recently…she is really good, and I am a fiddler that she deigns to play with, haha…"

commit to the gig. she's good and wants you there, so you're good enough. do the job.

Yea, my flute friend and I have some kind of telepathy... I just think “last time” and we end it, with matching flourishes…I don’t say Hup, I don’t lift my foot or do a thing, but we just somehow feel it together. (Or she can ‘hear’ the way I am minutely slowing down, spreading the notes, is the more likely explanation - but to me, it sure feels like telepathy :-)

But I feel like I let her down last time with my nerves…I can’t even bring myself to look at the people, much less notice their expressions or make a connection, LOL. Somehow it’s actually easier on stage, where people are a dark blurry mass, then having them sitting just 4 feet away…yeesh that feels close. I will work on it!

And maybe need to talk to flute friend about it and make a plan on how to handle my nerves (my proposal: “You lead all the sets when we have listeners!” haha)

"Stage fright" or nervous/jitters, timidness, or inexperience, or Red Light fever... maybe for some individuals? Though, maybe not... reduced to those terms can be often oversimplification if the wrong idea of what it is.

Performance anxiety is an issue for many folks; and it's not one manifestation, effect or degree, nor causes. Isn't necessarily about debilitating; ability technical skill get through the gig; (nor perfection/mistakes); but how affects overall experience, good/bad, enjoyment, having fun. For some of us, even 50 years of playing, 1000's of gigs, large audience and small; still deal with aspects of it in some contexts, and roles. Not simply jitters, nor lack of experience, nor have simple solutions, nor does just get better with time or just go away. For some of us, it's more about learning to manage aspects to mitigate/minimize effect; and recognizing and managing triggers/distractions, (still need to remind of that).

Speaking of "Proper prior preparation prevents poor performance." - easy to think only of technical and repertoire practice; not to diminish that; but mental preparation can be as if not more important part of that for some folks. IIRC is some aspects covered in The Performer Prepares by Robert-Caldwell - might be useful (many other similar other books); deals with some of mental preparation issues and tricks.

Somehow it’s actually easier on stage, where people are a dark blurry mass, then having them sitting just 4 feet away…

Me too. I can play in auditorium with 1000 folks without issue... but then struggle with PA playing in classroom of dozen or so 10 year olds.

One thing that might help is framing perception of what the context is; expectations... that can alter that to a degree. It's easy to put in false image in imagination; or over-think what experience the audience is really there for, expectations (and metrics).

I am reminded of example (in context of maybe Gazebo type gig), maybe along what Peggy mentioned. Rather than us and them, think to include them as us... we're all experiencing in this moment together.  Imagine, you and friend(s) are sitting on porch just playing some tunes, for the joy of the making music. As couple friends or neighbors walk by, notice sound... maybe curiosity; whatja doin? or sound interesting... Probably exchange some neighborly comments... they ask "mind if we listen?" - "sure no problem"; though that might be tacit exchange inviting them to share in the moment experience, music. Between songs might feel free to converse a bit with neighbor or friends... maybe about the music, they ask questions, or you tell them something about it; or maybe other topic. Maybe attracts few other neighbors, also same interaction; tacit welcoming them into that shared moment; if they want. Some point maybe more folks, maybe don't recognize as friend or neighbors, haven't met... but still they are similarly curious/interested... so probably welcome to listen to what musical story you have to share.

Your engagement is more "with" them, rather than "at" them. In that context, as friends, neighbors... probably feel more comfortable talking "with" them. Might even, if make mistake, forget a part, share that; laugh, just say oops, maybe even stop and restart; gives them the image you are just regular "folks" - neighbors, who happen to play some music to share. (not stars at Carnegie Hall); generally as "us" are pretty forgiving. But if not comfortable chatting, or giving eye contact, or tacit signals; that's okay too. Your other band mate might be comfortable, let them do that. If neither are comfortable, that's probably okay too; keep in mind their expectations in this context, they are fine with just experiencing the music you are sharing.

Probably helps "if" can have goal to try and keep that perception, just us neighbors and friends, expands and gets larger.
 

When I am with my kind of people I do not feel insecure. The time that I shortly played with a so called old time bluegrass americana band here in Belgium I could hardly play because they made me feel so nervous because of all of their expectations and criticism. When they put me aside the banjo player and clearly leader of the gang said I should maybe start to use a metronome and that they gave me enough chances and blabla he was putting all the blame on me because it did not work out.
But now.... I always kept contact with that one  roaming man who plays harmonica in pubs as a sort of busker and he patiently waited for me to be ready for a first meeting. He has played together with several others with his harmonica including a guy named Jad Kannos and he always said laughing : "you should play some tunes everyone knows here " since he is a pub player and he knows what works... Yesterday we had contact again after a long time , on facebook messenger,  like we did have contact in the past. And suddenly I thought why not give it another try and audio record myself with this video where he plays For Auld Lang Sync on the background. To my surprise this time my attempt was flawless and later on I recorded myself while he was playing Country Roads together with this guy Jad Kennos and also this was fairly easy now for me.
He was pretty enthousiast also and this time I just begged : please let me participate!! ( which had always been the hope - that my fiddle one day woukd match his harmonicas)
He also plays In de stille Kempen a classic one in Flandres and I let him hear my take on it and we just both concluded : ok-  now we are ready , we can really play together if we put some effort in it. We discussed a few tunes like Old Cotton Fields but also Flemish classics like Ach Marieke...
To make a long story short: I KNOW I wiil have a lot of FUN with him and the bunch of different musicians he plays with because both of us are alike. We want the fun not the fame .
I did not need a ****ing metronome after all haha it was so easy to follow him together with that guy Jad , I felt exactly what they were doing and how I needed to fall in.

We do not need repeaters and fancy materials like that one band that was allergic to my crosstuning preference.

I know for sure we will shine together.

I want this on video and he promised it will be recorded for sure. 

NO doubts.

NO insecurities.

NO elite talk

JUST passion for our instrument.

TO BE CONTINUED!

You bet guys I will post the first time we can meet here on FHO. You bet it will be fantastic!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

So my flute player friend and I played again in the rose garden gazebo recently…she is really good, and I am a fiddler that she deigns to play with, haha…

I tend to be unaware or have eyes closed when playing, until I heard her say,”Thanks, but we’re just doing this for fun.’

Then I looked up around the gazebo, and the other two long benches were full of sitting people and there were standing people too! I began to internally freak out!! From there, my playing went downhill…with the nerves, I sometimes skipped repeat of part A…or forgot entirely how part B started. My amazing friend would give me a quizzical glance and sync with me after a few notes (that’s how great a musician she is) but I felt bad! I also started getting nervous about my sets, thinking, “Will they enjoy this set more, or that one?” So I got very hesitant about starting tunes…so we had these long awkward pauses…yeesh. (I usually start more of the sets because I know hundreds of tunes less than her).

What are the mental tricks to deal with stage fright….argh!
Anybody figured it out?
Also should I be smiling at/chatting with the people, instead of trying to ignore them…gulp…

I could just hide and invite her to play in the house, but it seems like running away from the issue, LOL! And the rose garden gazebo is such a lovely inspiring place to play…

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My point is , I am not going to play for a public in the first place,  in the first place I am going to play with a true friend.

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

It is a good feeling when you know for sure your playing buddy has your back,...
 

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It is a good feeling, one thing great about band, even duet... it helps if can lean a bit on other musician(s), especially if they are solid, comfortable and exude confidence. One aspect is teamwork, not just 2 folks playing at same time; their musically solid support, can provide a solid point of focus; if you experience distractions, brain fart, or drift, weakness... got you covered; to help minimize or get on track.

Of course another is the audience engagement aspect...  you don't have to carry all that weight. Maybe can let the other musician(s) use their comfort and confidence, in forefront or as bridge; put most focus on them to lead engagement; can even kind of hide behind it, bit a sideman.

I also started getting nervous about my sets, thinking, “Will they enjoy this set more, or that one?” So I got very hesitant about starting tunes…so we had these long awkward pauses…yeesh. (I usually start more of the sets because I know hundreds of tunes less than her).

similarly, that can include letting them read the audience, lead decisions (what they will enjoy), setting the pace/flow of the set list/next tune and tempo. It really helps though to prepare somewhat a general set list, not necessarily have to follow that order, just of what you play well; rather than just wing it, pauses, back and forth guess how about this one?  Trust and let them, if they can, they will take care most all that engagement with audience; so that you don't need to worry about any of that; and just put your focus on playing the music.

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Of course I had experience that cut the other way as well, when don't feel can rely on solid band mates; what are going to do or say; (especially if they go a little too relaxed with libations; alcohol doesn't always help) which can trigger some lack of comfort; and performance anxiety. Just to say, some self consciousness and filtering, is good.

Thanks all, for 'talking' with me!

@Quincy - your harmonica partner sounds great! You have a great (brave) attitude!!
 

@Geo- My fiddle teacher would probably say, “Stage fright? Ha!” And hand me a whiskey. 
(Hmm maybe I'll ask him about it...after all, he certainly is not one to play to the audiences, he closes his eyes and goes into his own little world and does his thing. )

Hmm dwelling on this thought…

Not PERFORMING the music “in front” of others,
but SHARING the music “with” others…