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I had posted in sound off, https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/59044 ... "besides all this AI, ChatGPT, Copilot... I have hearing more about all this AI music stuff, and esp this Udio beta version, just released a few weeks ago, (as well as the Suno app)." A few content providers like Adam Neely, did some recent takes and perspectives. Curious as to where we are with AI music, and where is this going?
Not so much direct as fiddlers/folk musician context. But larger sense of music world as musicians, other contexts involving end product; affects the music industry, recording industry... that fiddlers (even trad) are part of. Economic values, but as well possible indirectly affects overall idea and value of music in society, might be bit of paradigm shift. (might benefit some fiddling). So what uses and impacts, and how quickly?
FWIW, it's already here and being used for some aspects. The reason is it is way less expensive to create (labor and copyright/royalties). As Adam and others point out... overall those consumers don't care about how the sausage is made (human/robot), just if end product is "good enough" for use.
I have mixed feelings about the use of AI to produce music. On the one hand, it’s always a terrifying thought that aspects of humanity could possibly be replaced by machinery. And it’s awful for composers if they are unable to maintain their careers.
On the other hand, AI can only work based on information fed into it, so its application to music is similarly a sampling of music that came before. Humans have the ability to come up with entirely new ideas, and if they’re creative enough, it should be possible to find ways to stay ahead. Competition is a great motivator, and perhaps it would be good to purge some awful music.
I think what appeals to people about AI-generated music right now is its ability to quickly provide something that sounds similar to something else, not something completely unique.
There are a number of YouTube channels of music made with AI programs in parody form. For example, you can listen to an AI Hank Williams singing a NWA rap song. It’s amusing because you instantly recognize Hank Williams’ voice, because Williams’ voice is singing a rap song, and because the person who made the video saw the humor in combining those two things. The AI program was just the tool.
In a way, using AI isn’t all that much different from using a synthesizer to cheaply replace a violin for a piece of music. The synthesized violin sound is violin-like enough to get the idea, but it’s definitely no match for the real thing. Many composers use synthesized instruments simply to get an idea of scoring or to play a composition back during the writing process without needing musicians on call.
As long as the creative instinct remains within humankind, and workshops continue to repair and manufacture traditional musical instruments, the musically motivated will continue to do what they love to do -- purchase musical instruments and make music. It's a pastime that's too central to our species to ignore.
Not really what AI music buzz is about. It's not really concern as if to replace the human desire to create music; as pastime. Nor about the experience of the player feels in of playing an instrument, and the sound it produces to them.
More about effect on the music industry (and models) as whole... the economic realities of those involved with content production of an end product for various consumer markets and various end use. Many will have to rethink how to make a living in music; as many of the older models of conventional revenue stream opportunities that could support them in past, are greatly diminished; not enough profit margin, budget; or simply reduced value; to economically compete against AI. Some of that is is technical, used to require human with high skills. Creatively, not simply about AI competing against human on just creative... but the economic comparison to compensate the creativity; has to be demand willing to pay more for that.
That said, possible outcome it may return to some fundamental aspects about idea and goals of playing music for many... as Adam Neely sort of mentions; and in reference to Christopher Small's book "Musicking"... valuing music as human endeavor, a process not an object (or product to sell)... encouraging participation not as a high skilled job/perfect execution; but for just personal joy and creative outlet... to experiencing the process of music, live in the moment... more intimate interaction to share with others. Kind of what a lot of fiddlers already discovered and value... it's more about process of playing music.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/09/2024 03:25:26
There has been quite a lot of discussion about the idea of AI “killing” music by putting composers and players out of work and destroying creativity.
I think there’s a fear among many serious music lovers that the general populus has become less invested in music overall, and that the music that can be composed by an algorithm will be good enough to please an audience that isn’t listening that closely anyway or doesn’t hear any difference. It makes sense to connect playing instruments to generating music (after all, this is a fiddle-related section of the forum). It’s been a while since synthesizers came onto the scene. They were regarded by many musicians as the death of musicality at the time. The use of synthesizers in music became widespread for a while, but ultimately lost much of its popularity. If you hear prominent synthesizers in a piece now, the immediate thought is that it’s an 80s piece or it’s imitating that style.
The monetary aspect is of course important, but price competition is a part of any business. AI can be used for much less than commissioning a composer, and that poses a threat to a part of the market. How much of an impact really comes down to how much the people who pay for the music care, which brings us back to the question of whether AI can do something that’s creative enough to impress the listeners.
Every industry has dealt with changes in technology. Violin making on the lower end changed a lot with the invention of the Thau milling machine, which made it possible to produce violin plates faster and reduced the hand work needed. The duplicating machine was another change. More recently, CNC has become common. The cottage industry of the 19th century is dead, but traditional violin making is still thriving.
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddlerMore about effect on the music industry (and models) as whole... the economic realities of those involved with content production of an end product for various consumer markets and various end use. Many will have to rethink how to make a living in music; as many of the older models of conventional revenue stream opportunities that could support them in past, are greatly diminished; not enough profit margin, budget; or simply reduced value; to economically compete against AI. Some of that is is technical, used to require human with high skills. Creatively, not simply about AI competing against human on just creative... but the economic comparison to compensate the creativity; has to be demand willing to pay more for that.
It's always about the money!
Ever been in the self checkout line and find there is no one around to assist?
Or, having to call even the smallest of businesses only to find that it takes longer to get to a human than it takes to get your answer?
ATM machines were a very early form of AI as well...
We are all suspect to the overall AI takeover that's inevitable...and like originally stated, it's coming faster than we thought!
Machines and AI are not quite the same thing. Machines perform a task based on simple instructions and with a fully determined outcome. If you pull a lever, it does a certain task, or if you type a command a program runs. What’s different about AI is that it can be given a more complicated task like “write a birthday song” and it can then glean from its available source material and process that to in turn make a product that’s different.
What scares people is the idea that as algorithms gain more data, they become stronger and more capable. A wealth of great music is in the public domain—arguably much more than is privately owned. Therefore the algorithm is built on great and comprehensive foundations. There is little pressure on an AI program to produce something truly unique because imitation of something great is sufficient for many purposes. A living composer, however, is pressured to be constantly presenting completely unique ideas. At some point it becomes difficult to keep producing new results, and it’s futile to do so if the unique results aren’t appealing.
To be honest, though, the struggle to come up with music that’s both new AND appealing predates AI, and audiences have been losing interest in new compositions unless they’re part of movie or video game scores.
Here’s an article that discusses some potential impacts of AI:
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/will-ai-kill-human-creativity
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 05/09/2024 09:37:42
Where I see a real impact on music industry with AI is in cases where you just want to indicate that music is being played, but not necessarily played by people. Think background music in commercials or in films/videos. Campfire scene in a western and you want to show people dancing round the fire. DO you care if St Annes Reel is being played or just something fiddley with rhythm. Cost to hire musicians, studio and mixing folks vs an AI generated sound file - no brainer.
A distinction can be made between economic and esthetic considerations about AI Music. Most of us, I'd guess, are not involved in supporting ourselves in a music career. That is, AI isn't threatening our copyrights or touring material. Aesthetically we still find it unsettling to think of a flood of AI music overtaking our radio stations, movie scores, and elevator rides. But those things are flooded with artificiality already. It's hard for me to fathom where all the audio dreck I hear comes from. But most of it comes from large corporations that present homogenized instrumental tracks backing up "artists" with their "hits". The music economy is mostly a corporate economy, it's not a not a worker economy anymore. It might as well be AI already.
Most of us fiddle players only have to suffer the idea of nonhuman music. But we're unlikely to be affected much. If an AI fiddle tune or bluegrass tune becomes popular for some reason maybe it'll be because it's actually a better tune than "Wagon Wheel" or something. I can live with that. It's the humanness of us playing individually and together that we care about. For most of us here, aside from disgust, we won't suffer much.
My pleasure this morning was to walk down to the creek on my property, sit in the sunshine and blend my fiddle with the rushing water and a few birds. And I'm thinking about playing with a few friends around the table this evening. Beat that AI!
quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddleri think i'm clueless about ai music. i have seen a lot of talk "around" it,
but have somehow avoided seeing/hearing what it is.
like that sonny and cher video... isn't that them singing? and the graphic is the ai?
That video isn't about AI, or destruction of all media, music, movies, games... but about very thin ipad pro... how media is all squeezed to fit into it. Using a sync license of the Sonny and Cher recording.
You are not alone in clueless about AI music. And it's rapidly changing, can't really compare to what was written 2 years ago.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/09/2024 12:54:18
But, yeah, it'll always be a heck of a lot of fun, not to mention fulfilling, to play an instrument yourself or to listen to other people play live. And as this self-admitted audiophile nut happily proclaims, there still ain't no comparison between sound that happens live and sound that's been reproduced on a machine...whether or not you've remembered to rosin the bow or clean the wax from your ears.
Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 05/09/2024 13:38:28
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddlerquote:
Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddleri think i'm clueless about ai music. i have seen a lot of talk "around" it,
but have somehow avoided seeing/hearing what it is.
like that sonny and cher video... isn't that them singing? and the graphic is the ai?That video isn't about AI, or destruction of all media, music, movies, games... but about very thin ipad pro... how media is all squeezed to fit into it. Using a sync license of the Sonny and Cher recording.
You are not alone in clueless about AI music. And it's rapidly changing, can't really compare to what was written 2 years ago.
I guess you must have missed the reaction to the ad. Apple issued an apology for it after it was condemned widely due to the fact that, regardless of what Apple intended to say with it, it was taken as an attack on the arts and a justification of AI for destroying the arts. Was that what Apple was suggesting? No, but that was the response to it and Apple has called it a misstep. You can argue "But people just didn't understand the message!" all you want, but this wasn't a film or a book, where deep ideas are presented for people to chew on and interpret at length. If an ad doesn't convey a message to an audience immediately in the way it was intended, it's a failure.
https://apnews.com/article/apple-ipad-ad-social-media-reaction-12e7fbd335feb4875d94c31b87379359
If you're still feeling clueless about AI, there are plenty of resources available to learn more. It isn't a new phenomenon, and its coming has been a subject of debate for quite a long time. It's getting much more attention now that its applications are more widespread and noticeable in everyday life.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 05/09/2024 18:15:38
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulI guess you must have missed the reaction to the ad.
I missed why you posted it, how it's apt to this discussion of AI?
As it doesn't seem to be about that.
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddlerI missed why you posted it, how it's apt to this discussion of AI?
As it doesn't seem to be about that.
Because it applies so well to the situation. Many reactions to the ad included references to AI, for one. But in a more general sense, the ad, taken together with its reception, capture the spirit of the time.
Apple redesigned a product that it intended to market as a slim but powerful machine that had the capability of a room full of arts equipment in one handheld package. But the reaction to the marketing was very negative, as people took the launch as a statement, a declaration that creativity was dead and there was nothing sacred. Despite what may have been good intentions on Apple's part, it comes across as something sinister.
In a similar manner, redesigned AI technology was presented as a tool to assist people in being creative. The reaction to it was also quite negative, as it was viewed as an attempt, not to aid, but to destroy creativity. Just as the Apple ad is taken as a threat to the existence of art as we know it, AI is taken as an existential threat.
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddleThink i'll just leave it for the phone zombies to play around with...At the risk of alienating myself from them even further.
Imagine a phone zombie jam session....Lol...I would imagine they already exist?
I take that back ...Its fun... like a "one armed bandit" of musical sounds scraped from the internet lol. i still prefer playing fiddle though.
One of the best songs it came up with was from the prompt: "phone zombie muzak"....Ha ha
As for how it effect the music industry and making $$$. I don't know. I moved to Wichita, KS 15 years ago and could maintain a healthy schedule locally between coffee shops, concert series, and the occasional bar.
We're seeing a cultural shuft here that seems heavily corporatized. The folk org that existed when i moved here is gone. The folk concert series I used to play are gone. The coffee shops have gone or limited their hours/tore out their stages. The universities have turned from liberal arts schools to tech schools and have some jazz, music theater, and classical but no concert series... which is weird for me as a music fan, too. So my new challenge is finding gigs without burning the wheels off of a vehicle an dlosing money. We have a local bluegrass org. One fest a year. And the local favorite bluegrass band is struggling to stay on the road because Wichita is kind of isolated from other cities and music scenes.
Edited by - Shawn Craver Fiddler on 05/11/2024 10:06:39
But nationally, I see more human made fiddling and banjoing than I've seen. Every time I go visit relatives in western md.wv/va appalachian region there's more live music and musicians fiddling and banjoing all the time. i run into 18-20 year olds now that know what clawhammer banjo is. gen z is tech smart, but i see them picking up folk and old time music... and how to live in real time/in the nonvirtual noncorporate moment quickly.
tiktok.com/@jessewelles/video/...912820011
as far as song royalties and performance royalties etc. streaming is a joke. if people can use ai creatively and artistically to make money, then good for them?
Edited by - Shawn Craver Fiddler on 05/11/2024 10:21:55
Different imaginations of this...
Who would use such software, for what purpose would be used for?
That is probably most important question, what the buzz is about; and what others, and myself... are getting wrong about a lot of this. I don't think it will be used the way most folks here are imagining; esp as some fears of end of creativity; or diminishing/replacing joy of playing fiddle/banjo. How many of us think of world of music; (and even how entire business works)
Playing with these things just to have a bit on hands on to see for myself, rather than just reading what others state... what it can or can't do. First how good is it becoming... what can it do now, in the free available to public beta.
As mentioned sync music, stock music, functional music... Classical strings
https://www.udio.com/songs/beufMjKXKCFYiR7bjAojC3
https://www.udio.com/songs/uTEgPoKPQFpuoFuWDBdcqS
https://www.udio.com/songs/bX1LWcNK3dNVBTYxNfJ3E5
Spaghetti Western
https://www.udio.com/songs/cTFZupJhynuSNXBBSABb7i
Classical guitar with Celtic mood
https://www.udio.com/songs/9eAHhnDZFozsD3kMJYT1Np
https://www.udio.com/songs/mBpC4WXm7T5AbnGbmr76Nw
Delta bottlenekck blues with male vocal
https://www.udio.com/songs/eQZGz1zEsz8jtWcUFL1MVx
Then into more songs with female vocal
https://www.udio.com/songs/wSUfNWAH2gP7K57dEvKteY
https://www.udio.com/songs/p76DLMjha6M3fa6upwqFo4
Can even do cover of public domain... like House of the Rising Sun or Amazing Grace.
https://www.udio.com/songs/uUjAaApMbjmMqBoj6Z6dsd
https://www.udio.com/songs/cTFZupJhynuSNXBBSABb7i
https://www.udio.com/songs/nDKNwPUB6GrMhEfvM6v2u1
Can go to site and discover all sorts of other genres.
These are not simply about AI as composer; that then others might perform, or record... it's the whole finished product AI made; from start to finish, just type in prompts; without need input from composer, producer, musician, instruments, singer, recording studio/engineer.
IMO that is pretty impressive results, not what I expected. Further that no experience or skill needed; even a suit with business degree, in a tall office building can type in prompt, or have low paid intern do it.
Who would use such software, for what purpose would be used for?
Not for live music. Whether jams or paid gigs. Certainly not to compose fiddle tunes... there is no reason to do that at all. Not really about simply composing music... for humans to then later play live or in recording studio. Nor some creative tool to that end.
But the "who" might be perhaps a suit with a business degree, in tall office, with no experience, skill, creativity; toward music production? The purpose might be simply needs another to generate some entire finished music to use. For example in realm of utilitarian, functional, sync music, stock music... needs. (that's a bigger part of music business than folks think). Need to have low cost of production (including paying for licensing)
There are others, and other purposes, like to do with streaming. Not necessarily about having a top 100 hit.
It's always about the money!
Yep, who/purpose mostly has to do with money... affecting professionals that make living from music. I don't see these even as tools, that actual musicians, composers, performers, producers... would ever use... but more those in the business that just need the output for less cost.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/11/2024 16:02:52
quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddleras far as song royalties and performance royalties etc. streaming is a joke. if people can use ai creatively and artistically to make money, then good for them?
There are concerns to do with streaming. Unskilled folks generating these... they didn't really create anything, just typed in prompt; nothing really of their own creative or artistic effort. They can't really make royalties, as they can't claim a copyright for the AI. But in taking that and posting it up on things like Spotify, as if they did create it all (no indication of AI); there is a monetization aspect. They don't have to be big "hits"... just generate enough streams get paid a few dollars. On the udio and suno sites, can see that some of those entire AI made have 10s to 100s of thousands of streamed listens, and 1000s of likes. So quick and easy, can just repeat, flood the market with x-thousands. No doubt, nothing prevents from taking advantage of that. Maybe already seeing some signs of that.
There are a lot of ethical and legal questions about much of the practices (including how AI scraped copyright materiel).
i can see a use for it in creating the desired atmosphere in a retail outlet for example.
Probably mix it in with other controlling sounds, odours,decor etc. To create the "ultimate Shopping experience for the " Alpha Generation". They could wear sensors on their head and get a discount price on their purchases, while informing their algorithms of their shopping experience..etc...etc.
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