I have a question for OT players, but first the backstory. So, tonight I sat in on my first OT jam. It's not something I have much experience with and I'm a beginner fiddle player as well. My first observation was that, compared to the bluegrass/folk jams I'm used to, it was a VERY SERIOUS affair. I introduced myself, explained that I was new to the fiddle and asked if I could join in and play quietly. They were a nice group of folks and welcomed me to the circle. Most of the songs I'd never heard of before but, except for a few very crooked tunes, it wasn't difficult to get the gist of it, especially since we played each song for what seemed eternity (also something new to me). I couldn't play note for note but I could following along, in time, in tune, following chord changes, relying on pentatonics to get me through. For most songs, except for the few I actually new, I probably played half the notes others were playing.
So, my question for you OT'ers. Is this acceptable for now? It seemed to me that all of the other fiddle players were playing each song together, note for note. There was even discussion before each song about which version of each song they would play. At 64 years of age and just learning the fiddle, I don't think I'll EVER know all the songs and all the versions of the songs they know. But...I greatly enjoyed myself and I seemed to fall in to a trance as the music went on and on. I liked it. Do most OT jams expect you to know and play every song together, note for note, or is there room for individual variance? I don't know the protocol.
Depends. Don't know protocol for that group; might ask them.
The musicians I typically play with... difficult to describe but often it's the concept of "the same but different" - most part probably considered more the same than different. Part of what we consider the term "jam" is that it has an improvisational aspect to it...(thus not rehearsed or literal note for note). It all has to start with and conform to the same solid melodic and rhythmic framework. But within that are detail, articulation, nuance, ornament... It might seem like note for note, and some can be very similar; but also allows for degree of slight variances, amount and type of detail; not only from person to person, but even same person as goes through repetitions. Listen to each other, adjust, and find what blends; to then throw in this idea or that, play off each other.
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Originally posted by dorymanMost of the songs I'd never heard of before but, except for a few very crooked tunes, it wasn't difficult to get the gist of it, especially since we played each song for what seemed eternity (also something new to me). I couldn't play note for note but I could following along, in time, in tune, following chord changes, relying on pentatonics to get me through. For most songs, except for the few I actually new, I probably played half the notes others were playing.
That's it. Sketch out the melody the best you can, quietly. I doubt if the fiddlers in the jam were all playing exactly the same notes, unless they were reading from a book. Just use you ear and keep trying.
I know I'm probably fighting a losing battle in this age of Spotify, etc., but those were probably tunes you were playing, not songs. Songs have words, tunes don't.
Beyond that I don't have much advice, because I don't think I've ever attended that sort of modern jam. Be polite and try not to annoy people, but I'm sure you already know that. If its OK with everyone, recording the jam may help you learn the tunes faster.
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Originally posted by doryman
Do most OT jams expect you to know and play every song together, note for note, or is there room for individual variance? I don't know the protocol.
It really does depend on the group. If you're in a jam that is pretty open to newcomers, you should be fine as long as you're not too loud and making it hard for everyone to follow the stronger players. At most of the jams I've attended, the group tends to listen to the stronger players for guidance and the tune version. If you know the tune, play at a similar volume to those around you. If you don't know the tune and are trying to pick it up as you go, play softly until you're at least hitting the main notes consistently and on time.
Some groups are very encouraging to all players, some are more focused on staying small and exclusive. You get a sense for which is which pretty quickly. As far as the variation among players, some groups are open to playing harmony or adding other embellishments. Some will scowl at you if you play a different note or comment afterward that "that's not how x plays it." The coordinator for the jam is always a good person to talk with to get an idea of the group.
You have to start somewhere, and you can't be expected to know everything the first time you show up to a group. It's a learning process. Most of the time I think you'll find that players are glad to have another interested person join in as long as they're not too loud.
One last thought: keep in mind that although the other players are moving their bows at roughly the same time, it's no guarantee that they're all playing the same notes! Playing in a large group hides a lot of mistakes.
What you are doing by laying back and getting familiar is the way. If they welcome you to do so, it is a good opportunity to learn the tunes without being intrusive. One of the biggest differences between old-time jams and bluegrass, is that there are no individual lead breaks in old-time. The banjos and fiddles are playing the melody together, pretty much note for note. Usually, there isn't much variance or deviation from that. It does indeed induce a trance. Especially when you have multiple fiddles and banjos in perfect sync.
On a side note: Every year at Clifftop Keith McManus (of Morgantown, WV) host a group jam at his camp on Wednesday evening. Usually, around 60 or so people all huddled and standing within few feet of each other. It is an old-time orchestra of sorts and sounds pretty amazing. Over the years I have thought it would be cool to take that on a much grander scale. I have imagined all the musicians in attendance (roughly a few thousand) gathering in the main field by the stage. Getting someone on stage to initiate the tune (something very familiar like Soldiers Joy) and everyone playing in unison. I think it would not only be something to behold, but also a nice tradition.
I have been to just a couple of OT jams (I normally play Irish) but the ones I went to were people sittting in a circle, in folding chairs outside, and had a very relaxed smiley vibe. Chatting, joking. One was in somebody’s backyard and there were dogs, kids, bbq. Tunes were played in a laid-back style too….not everybody in lockstep for the notes! Maybe you hit upon the serious semi-pro jam! or in your region, it’s taken more ‘seriously’…I do wonder about regional differences.
Anyway I just played soft, chiming in a note here or there…and a few tunes were simple enough that I could actually pick them up on the fly. If you keep going back, the tunes sink into your ears…you will be able to play along sooner than you would think, because the ‘mass’ of other players kind of carries you along…
'On individual variance...
we had a fiddler from the "red clay ramblers"(!) at one of the jams and he was doing amazing stuff...I don't know how to describe it, maybe "licks and fills"? He was two chairs away from me, so I heard him clearly. He was NOT playing what everybody else was playing, and he sounded so Grrreat. I think the more advanced the jam, the more you find this going on...but a beginner-friendly jam will have most people playing in unison...
Edited by - NCnotes on 04/28/2024 07:40:30
Ask questions. I haven't met very many old-time musicians that won't love to share what they know.
Keith! Haha. Fun guy. Can't say I know personally, but Jammed with him a couple time.
OT jams, everybody plays in unison . I understand why you'd want to keep pretty close to the melody. Otherwise it sounds like mud.
On the other hand, I've been to some jams with folks that have a definite pedigree, and we passed it around. So when in Rome. . (pay attention)
Every other jam the fiddle is not King. I prefer it that-a-way.
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Originally posted by NCnotes'On individual variance...
we had a fiddler from the "red clay ramblers"(!) at one of the jams and he was doing amazing stuff...I don't know how to describe it, maybe "licks and fills"? He was two chairs away from me, so I heard him clearly. He was NOT playing what everybody else was playing, and he sounded so Grrreat. I think the more advanced the jam, the more you find this going on...but a beginner-friendly jam will have most people playing in unison...
Now, I'm not equating myself to the red clay ramblers fiddler in any way but, there were a few tunes last night where I was very tempted to riff of the melody, bluegrass style, but decided against it in the end. At least for now!
Thanks for the comments everyone. The jam I attended was one of several going on at once in a big house, as part of going away party for one of our local musicians. As such, it was pretty informal, as far as jams go. I wasn't busting in on a long-time private jam or anything like that. I also played my banjo in that OT jam for a while and I did NOT like that. I literally could not play my banjo that fast for that long (for each song). My fretting hand was cramping!
"Do most OT jams expect you to know and play every song together, note for note, or is there room for individual variance? I don't know the protocol."
The Bing Brothers out of West Virginia are an old time band that stick close to the melody but don't play in unison. They each play the tune separately, but I wouldn't call them bluegrass breaks but they allow for personal variances without bluegrass hot doggin'. Look up their take on Big Sciota. It's dang good. They are a stage act, but that style of jamming on old time tunes is a thing (or used to be) in Western Maryland and West Virginia. My cousins and friends jams were all like The BIng Brothers format growing up. Not based on the Bing bros. specifically... just the format was the same.
I was down in Winfield Kansas several years ago and ran into an old time jam in that format as well. I don't have much of an opinion on how things should be, but as folk DJ Gaynor Johnson who founded the Sioux River folk fest in South Dakota used to dryly say on his radio show, "Fun is hard to beat..." .
Edited by - Shawn Craver Fiddler on 04/28/2024 10:41:22
At least in the OT jams I regularly attended in SoCal, the jam leader called out (or simply began) the tunes, set the tempo, and expected everybody to precisely follow suit...as if he/she were Herbert Von Karajan and we were the Berlin Philharmonic. A raised leg/foot from the leader let us know we were going to wrap it up at the end of the current verse. My wife used to chuckle about it. I, meanwhile, just tried to stay in the groove. It was also interesting that nobody seemed to care if we were intonating even haphazardly correctly. Whether or not there were dancers on the scene, the point of the music was to provide dancers something to dance to. Yeah, I'm complaining a bit here. But I still had a heck of a lot of fun. I truly miss going to 'em.
True, every so often the leader would invite another player to decide the next tune, but more than a few times there was nobody who wanted to step up.
Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 04/28/2024 13:34:09
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Originally posted by DougDI know I'm probably fighting a losing battle in this age of Spotify, etc., but those were probably tunes you were playing, not songs. Songs have words, tunes don't.
Beyond that I don't have much advice, because I don't think I've ever attended that sort of modern jam. Be polite and try not to annoy people, but I'm sure you already know that. If its OK with everyone, recording the jam may help you learn the tunes faster.
Doug, et al,
I would like to highlight that a lot of ol time tunes/songs have words--the voice is the original instrument. Even Soldiers Joy has words. If OT musicians can only do dancing rhythm and can't accommodate the voice, they are impostors.
Example--Cluck Ol' Hen. OT jam is just about always playing it in Am. A key impossible for a male to sing. For that, needs to be in Dm. Just one string to the left. But if you call it in that these days, most (the banjos usually) look at you like you just landed from Mars.
Many others: Ol' Dan Tucker, Blue Tail Fly, My Horses Ain't Hungry, Ducks on the Millpond, Cumberland Gap, even Ol Joe Clark. If someone is unable to sing it in the traditional key, the jam should be able to accommodate the proper pitch.
I have been at a singing where an ol' timer just stands up and starts whaling "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" in a key like Bb-and-a-quarter. You don't go walking away from that--you back it.
Edited by - Flat_the_3rd_n7th on 04/28/2024 17:41:03
Generally old time jams are everyone plays together, full bore, same version of a tune. Break out a blugrass version of say Ricketts Hornpipe, you would get not a few 'looks' from the jam leader or tune leader. Heck I went to one 'jam' session where everyone had their tune books out and they would just say the numbers of the tunes in a set. like "lets do 23, 44 and 118". I was like what the F......!! And God forbid you put some other style into the tune if it was not written that way. Me, I prefer a much looser jam, with any style being accepted, even welcomed!
So you will find every variation under the Sun, in jam session styles and etiquette.
From the sounds of it, your fellow musicians were aware of their differences and going to some lengths to sort them out. A guy could learn a lot from folks like that. And have a good time.
I recently found a group of really good musicians who play old time tunes in bluegrass format where they take turns soloing. I must say that even though it’s a hybrid format and not the tradition, it sounds really good! As a fiddler it’s was very satisfying to not have another version going on in my ear at the same time. Truth be told I’m not crazy about fiddlers banging out their own versions in unison even if I like their individual playing. The instrument is so personal and intonations and versions can vary a lot- it just sounds like mud unless it’s worked out carefully (my personal option of course) Also, it was fun to play chords and figure out some backup. It wasn't bluegrass but it was dangerously close. Call it what you want.
Edited by - Peghead on 04/29/2024 15:08:49
quote:
Originally posted by PegheadI recently found a group of really good musicians who play old time tunes in bluegrass format where they take turns soloing. I must say that even though it’s a hybrid format and not the tradition, it sounds really good! As a fiddler it’s was very satisfying to not have another version going on in my ear at the same time. Truth be told I’m not crazy about fiddlers banging out their own versions in unison even if I like their individual playing. The instrument is so personal and intonations and versions can vary a lot- it just sounds like mud unless it’s worked out carefully (my personal option of course) Also, it was fun to play chords and figure out some backup. It wasn't bluegrass but it was dangerously close. Call it what you want.
My own weekly bluegrass/folk jam group will do this (although I don't want go so far as to call us "really good musicians".) It usually turns into a train wreck because, when it comes pure fiddle tunes we all only learned how to play the deedle-deedle part and we don't know the chords! So the backups are terrible!
Edited by - doryman on 04/29/2024 15:13:44
I've been in situations where instruments trade leads, instead of all playing at once, but was not really "Bluegrass." In fact I don't think the practice of multiple instruments playing all together really has much of a tradition anyway. I played with Lee Sexton for several years and that's what we always did.
I also got to play one show with Doc Watson, and we all traded leads. It was never discussed - that's just what we did. My main fear really was not playing when it was Doc's turn. No one needed to hear me banging away on my banjo when Doc Watson was taking a guitar break. I think when he played with Fred Price and Clint Howard that's what they did too.
Edited by - DougD on 04/29/2024 15:45:46
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Originally posted by DougDNo one needed to hear me banging away on my banjo when Doc Watson was taking a guitar break.
That would be...not good.
Not all jams are "play in lock step unison." not but a long shot. In fact, none of the jams I've ever been in was like that. Playing melody at once is indeed the general rule, rather than taking turns on the melody, but variations happen naturally and I often play second fiddle if the group has more than a couple of fiddles. And it's mostly tunes, despite the fact that there are often words available to sing if someone knows them, but no one calls them songs unless considered a song with fiddle between verses (and there are definitely songs played in these jams). The distinction argument is general made more strongly by those who play traditional Irish tunes.
Old time orchestra was mentioned. At the latest Clifftop, there were at least 150 players (including at least 4 basses) at the EstroGin Jam and it was amazingly tight playing, especially considering the size of the outer circle (several circles inside of circles). I can guarantee they weren't playing note for note the same and yet it was beautifully sonorous.
Cluck Old Hen is totally singable by a guy in the key of A. Don't even need to be a high tenor, but I can see where it might be a reach for some.
You've made the biggest step and that's jumping in. Now that you're in...it'll only get better! I feel ya though. I hosted many a BG jams but never played in an "OT" jam...it's a different ballgame. But I think I'm ready, Coach!
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