From a technical standpoint I'd say JA is a far more difficult tune to pull off compared with BK. Dunno for sure but I think It's impossible to do any justice to JA unless you have a solid shuffle going. I can make it work sometime after a lot of practice. BK for me is a much simpler tune to pull off. Pretty sure it usually gets played at a much slower tempo, played with either 2 or 3 parts. I can make it sound pretty good with a few double stops here and there. I'm sure there many better fiddlers than me on this forum who will have other ideas on these tunes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichJ

From a technical standpoint I'd say JA is a far more difficult tune to pull off compared with BK. Dunno for sure but I think It's impossible to do any justice to JA unless you have a solid shuffle going. I can make it work sometime after a lot of practice. BK for me is a much simpler tune to pull off. Pretty sure it usually gets played at a much slower tempo, played with either 2 or 3 parts. I can make it sound pretty good with a few double stops here and there. I'm sure there many better fiddlers than me on this forum who will have other ideas on these tunes.

Ha...I TOTALLY hear your view and agree. I question my productivity all the time. I am trying to spend more time just shuffling on pairs of strings....trying to breathe...relax, but not tense...meanwhile trying to stay consistent. After listening to JA, I'll be able to learn the melody in chunks but you're right, I won't have it until I can shuffle better. For instance, I have Whiskey Before Breakfast, note for note. Maybe pithcy in some spots but I learned the notey version but can't really "play it" because I can't shuffle through the whole thing. Regardless, my JA is going to be slow like all the rest!! lol

---

Check out YT for Roger Netherton's version of JA. He absolutely crushes the tune with several ways to work in all kinds of shuffles. Roger is now an outstanding fiddler, but he was pretty much doing the same thing with the tune when he was 12 years old. Too bad but I think they took down all the vids his mom put up of him playing 10 or more years ago.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RichJ

Check out YT for Roger Netherton's version of JA. He absolutely crushes the tune with several ways to work in all kinds of shuffles. Roger is now an outstanding fiddler, but he was pretty much doing the same thing with the tune when he was 12 years old. Too bad but I think they took down all the vids his mom put up of him playing 10 or more years ago.

---

I'll find that...thanks! Roger is one of my favorites! 

I play it in standard tuning. We were just talking about standard vs. crosstuning. In standard I get both parts complete, in the low register and the low g string is great for that. There are are lots of people who play it in cross I’m sure. Tommy Jarrells version is iconic. I play doc watsons melody.

Tommy Jarrell is probably the source of most versions. I don't hear much of a shuffle on it myself...
slippery-hill.com/system/files...Apple.mp3

I would say that Mr Jarrell's version is not the version most play, even if he might be the source. In my neck of the woods (solidly in the Midwest) most don't have the faintest idea how he played it, or who he is. Appalachian old time (which in itself is a pretty broad brush stroke) isn't as universal as those who play in that style might think it is. Around here there are likely a few who play a similar melody as the Jarrell melody, but I've never met one. Usually they play this version or there about. June Apple

Edit to add: BTW, Mr Jarrell was pretty much a nonstop shuffle bower.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peghead

I play it in standard tuning. We were just talking about standard vs. crosstuning. In standard I get both parts complete, in the low register and the low g string is great for that. There are are lots of people who play it in cross I’m sure. Tommy Jarrells version is iconic. I play doc watsons melody.

---

I haven't ventured into Cross Tuned yet but from the videos I've been watching of June, I really dig the low register melody. I will give Doc's a listen. 

There's been a lot of discussion about Tommy's bowing... One thing I know is that he said he liked to "keep the bow moving" and if some want to call that a shuffle, I don't care.

On the June Apple recording I'm hearing some precise single string notes placed perfectly just before the down beat.

His signature bow pattern is
1 2 1 2 1 1 - 1 2 1 2 1 1
DU DU DU...
short lo-ong short lo-ong short short
Which happens to lay a nice string of single strokes at the end of each phrase.
Keep in mind, I'm not promoting or endorsing his bowing, just showing that he indeed played patterns even if they weren't the typical "Nashville Shuffle" - long short short long short short.

Let me just say this. You can all probably all relate to having an off fiddle night right? Let me just say, this tune is above my level...lol.
I know why too. Rich, you were right lol

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

His signature bow pattern is
1 2 1 2 1 1 - 1 2 1 2 1 1
DU DU DU...
short lo-ong short lo-ong short short
Which happens to lay a nice string of single strokes at the end of each phrase.
                                          That's the thing alright, just what I thought was a "New Synchoshuffle" pattern, before posting about it last week. Apologies to all

---

I hope I don't summon the ghost of pogo, but I think patterns like that are an over-simplification of Jarrell's bowing and do not hear or see it that way all.

I don't particularly think it's that simple either, except that one particular pattern is one of a few set of accent phrases he uses that was, at the time of its "discovery" by the disciples who first transcribed him, uniquely syncopated. His playing is what one gets after a near lifetime of playing and hearing others with a lifetime of playing. Patterns exist, but for the most part, I think they exist best outside of conscious use. Which is how Mr Jarrell uses them. 

I would love to see a loooooonnnnnggg post appear as the ghost of Pogo...it would be fun to read.

Just download this and play along. Slow it down if you have the software. Camp Creek Boys (Fred Cockerham and Ernest East, fiddles; Kyle Creed, banjo; Paul Sutphin and Ronald Collins, guitars; Verlen Clifton, mandolin). Recorded in 1966.

https://www.slippery-hill.com/content/june-apple-6

One thing about Pogo is that he did tap into the bowing trend that is now a popular style of bowing... dogmatically at times. Prophetically? I watched a Clifftop 2023 recap video recently and almost every featured fiddler bowed by pattern and I thought of Pogo.

I know that the video was not illustrative of all the fiddling at Clifftop, but it reminded me of those videos that show newscasters across the country repeating the same lines in the same way.

Pogo definitely spent an enormous amount of time / energy on figuring out and preaching pattern playing. He was pretty dogmatic about it, and I always thought his angle was how learning the patterns are a shortcut to sounding old-timey. As you and I know, that idea has been taken to its inevitable conclusion where the newest generation of players sound a lot alike, and not all that "old" in the "timey" sense.

Let's just say this...."I'm not ready for my lesson tonight!!!" lol

So, those of you that have taken lessons, or give lessons for that matter...

How long do you stay on a song that's not clicking until you move on?

I'm perplexed here because...I don't have the A part down yet. Been tryin to listen to all sorts of versions,
watched a ton of lessons. I hate going to lessons unprepared. It's mostly the time I did not spend on this because it's not coming...lol
It's just been a bad 5 days or so with the fiddle. I need a pick me up! Playing at a live jam last night didn't help me either. I was about 3 years early on that stage...hahaha. Oh well. Ya gotta jump in eventually

The way I did it was as follows:
I kept a fiddle out and handy whenever I was home (back in the days of the office). Every so often I would pick it up and play through something, current tune, tune I know, long slow bows in the mirror, whatever. I'd play from 2 to 10 minutes and then go back to my day. Do that 10 - 12 times a day and you've put in 20min to 2hr of practice without a lot of burnout. This is legit focused playing not half-assing it. Often the last thing I play before bed would be in my head when I woke up and better under my fingers than the day before. I still sleep on new tunes when I'm learning them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

The way I did it was as follows:
I kept a fiddle out and handy whenever I was home (back in the days of the office). Every so often I would pick it up and play through something, current tune, tune I know, long slow bows in the mirror, whatever. I'd play from 2 to 10 minutes and then go back to my day. Do that 10 - 12 times a day and you've put in 20min to 2hr of practice without a lot of burnout. This is legit focused playing not half-assing it. Often the last thing I play before bed would be in my head when I woke up and better under my fingers than the day before. I still sleep on new tunes when I'm learning them.

---

That is an excellent technique that I use on virtually every new tune.. Play it a little, let my brain rest, be confident that I'll eventually get it and quit as soon as my fingers get confused.. only to come back a little while later to proceed with more success.. !!!!

Also, have you tried singing this song? It has plenty of words, and if you can sing it you can probably play it, eventually.
Further, I don't see why people think this tune is particularly hard, or harder than Cabin Creek (aka Barlow Knife). Seems fairly easy to me. I also don't hear too much difference between the versions mentioned here. They all seem like June Apple to me, in the styles of the different players. The young people in California aren't old enough to have developed a distinctive style, so that could be a good place to start. Don't jump around - jusr pick a version and go from there.

Doug, I'm just too inexperienced at this point. You're right though...it's def easy and I can sing all the melody.
A lot of the problem I'm having is if I learn the tune, single notes, I can memorize the melody. Then it doesn't sound like the song lol

So far, seems like some songs, the A part is easy and sticks and then some are the B parts.