I have/had the same problem sometimes ...But.. i just concentrated on hitting the 1st beat of a 2 bar "phrase" with a down bow, and it has helped. The rest of the measure seems to sort it's self out bowing wise. After a while i could hit the 1st Beat of each "bar" with a down bow. Then the 1st and 2nd "beats"...Then the off beats etc etc.

As an aside, A nice thing about some Canadian tunes is that you sometimes emphasize the up bow which is kind of counter intuitive but works nicely and gives a nice Jaggy Rhythm to a phrase.

In the words of Gerry Robichaud "You pick up on the way up what you lost on the way down."

It has been said that you start the bow direction at the beginning of each bar, a down bow.. there will be times when an up bow works but if you start with that premise then you will find that much of bowing will come naturally... this can be especially important between first and second parts of a tune....

Play Happy

Swing

There are times when I discover a phrase that really needs to be bowed starting in a particular direction, so I'm not tripping over myself at the end of it. The rule about bowing down on the "one" is a good rule until it gets in your way. I have hunch you've probably actually learned some good things in your practice (I don't really think any learning goes to waste), but I also think that if you're not thinking about bowing when you play a real tune, that you're doing it right.

I def try the down on the "one" or the beginning of "chunks". I am always tripping on the direction though. Then you have slurs that will save you but changing quick direction is not my strong suit just yet...lol.

I def think I'm missing some easy fundamentals. I went from Twinkle Twinkle to Soldiers Joy...lol. Every time I make a post in the advice section, about halfway through the comments I've realized what I "need" to practice...lol

Ok, I’m mostly just a beginner too but I’m not sure spotted pony is such a good 3rd tune for someone. It’s a pattern tune. Nashville and Georgia shuffle all the way through. So yea you can get turned around real fast if you don’t have the shuffle bowing down cold. On the other hand when you learn it you’ll have the shuffles down!

quote:

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Originally posted by Erockin

For the life of me, I cannot get the correct bow direction when needed. As a beginner, there are so many things to be aware of: grip, left hand, relaxed right arm and wrist, intonation, posture...the whole nine yards. What I can't seem to conceive is "bow direction"
What feels good as a down should be an up, then an up I'm playing a down. One time I play it up and the next time down. I'm not thinking up-up down-up up down etc...I'm just bowing. It's too early on for me to adopt a "personal approach" to bowing.

I'm heading to my 2nd lesson from my newest teacher and I can play Spotted Pony pretty good now but the bow patterns I can't follow. Mainly because I'm focused on 20 other things...lol. I watch videos and I see it, I can hear it, I can even feel it but I just can't get it. I'm sure I need to keep practicing long bows and certain patterns but when I break into the song, all the bowing goes right out the window...lol. Everyone unlocks this at some point but for me, the key is still tight.

What inspired this conversation was, watching a group play "Big Footed Man" and none of the fiddles lined up but all were achieving a masterful sound playing together. I guess there are no rules once you're there?

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A friend reported that once at a festival demonstration of great fiddlers, several fiddlers were on stage and each held a lit cigarette in his/her bow hand.  As the fiddlers played a tune the lights were turned out and alz people could see were the cigarettes glowing.. He said the all were doing different stuff as demonstrated bye glowing embers but together all sounded great..

This is just my opinion...but, from my own short, self-taught, amateur fiddling experience...I started out going into all directions until I finally figured out one thing...that is, mainly, most bowing "patterns" and licks are modifications of Nashville Shuffle. Many people will disagree...ok, fine...I would love to have a big public discussion on this with back 'n forth...maybe we'd finally come up with an answer to bowing questions and issues we've all had to face...but I'll say it again...whatever regular pattern, lick, or rhythm you want to play...IF you become familiar enough with N. Shuffle in the beginning, to the point where you can weave a melody into that shuffle, then further so that you can jump out of the shuffle but still have the same rhythmic idea, to the point where you could easily jump back in, like kids jumping in and out of a moving jump rope...then you've got the groove going. Any pattern or lick you study or try to emulate was probably ... ok them's strong words...so I'll change that before I finish that thought...any pattern or lick you study or try to emulate COULD be born of n. shuffle, or could be transferred back to n. shuffle. Not 100% of the time, but I'm talking about the main groove of fiddling...at least OT fiddling...maybe even some types of BG...not all, though. If you revert to long bows you are venturing into notier styles...in my opinion...but I'm talking about OT or early types of BG...maybe even a few waltzes and such...when done in another way that allows 3 beat shuffling...kinda like 3 beat clawhammering...another story though, but it works.

But anyhow, I just lost my train of thought because I had to get up and go outside real quick...so anyhow I did also wanna tell the tale I think is commonly heard said of Old Time fiddlers...supposedly there was some fiddler from bygone days who was asked how long it takes to become good with the bow. He said something to the effect, that you sit on your porch and fiddle like crazy...and when the shadow of your bowing arm wears a hole in, boards of the porch floor, that'd be the puncheon floor, then you may consider yourself a fiddler, knowledable of bowing the doggone thing. See, that wouldn't work for me...because for the past 35 years we've had a concrete floor to our porch...before that though, we did have a puncheon floor, that we hewed with an adz ourselves...so that woulda worked, except I didn't have a fiddle back then...so I'm a little off whack with my fiddling...yet...somebody did say that, supposedly...the point is though that it takes a lot of time spent with your fiddle and your bow. And in my opinion, n. Shuffle is the "Mother of all Bowing," to borrow and corrupt, in a good way, Ol' Sadam's famous quote...lol...and if you figure out how to work melodies into that shuffle...you will gradually wear a hole in the porch floor...and then you will be a great fiddler. But you'll have to watch your step on the porch.

Not to put too fine a line on it but......If it works ..It's right!

I'm kinda with Brett...
the first thing to train is actually your Ear, your Listening (which I think you are already good at!!)
Then, can keep messin' and playing and experimenting with your bowing until it sounds the way you want...
separate bows sounds wrong? try slurring.
slurring sounds too "soft", not rhythmic enough? put in some separate bows.
you want an accent, but not a big hard one? try speeding up your bow without actually changing direction (bow swell, I think it's called?)
Can even try messing around with bow just with open strings, seeing what it sounds like when you do different things...
and it will come! It will come with time!

One thought is that if you are doing something hard with your left hand (fingering) then it's hard to focus on bowing. It's easier to concentrate on bowing when your left hand knows what to do/is on "auto pilot" So don't be too critical when you're learning a new tune...polish and play with your bowing on older tunes you know very well...

Love that quote Peggy!
Unfortunately my front stoop is made of concrete like you...I guess we'll be at this a looong time...:-D

Indeed, I don't want to interfere with store-bought instructions.
I sat in a fiddlers clinic where we learned a tune, one phrase at a time. I thought that was a pretty good way to learn the exact bowing. Up to that point, I never tried to copy the bowing of any tune. There used to be knockdown bareknuckle fights on FHO about bowing. I never partook. One can pretty much play any tune, one note per bow. I usually do this, to memorize the melody. Then if I hear a version with some notes that are accented, I try to introduce the accent within the melody. This may not be the correct thing, especially if one wants a tune to sound like (insert fiddlers name here).

Just wait. There'll be an a.i. bot posting three pages of how to play violin from start to finish. 

We may even get lucky enough to be told how each of our posts are wrong or idiotic. Just wait.

i can't fault what NCnotes just said.

But as an addition to....

"One thought is that if you are doing something hard with your left hand (fingering) then it's hard to focus on bowing. It's easier to concentrate on bowing when your left hand knows what to do/is on "auto pilot" So don't be too critical when you're learning a new tune...polish and play with your bowing on older tunes you know very well..."

I would just say that, some times the fingering is easier in a higher position, and maybe using open string or two, allowing a player to get the bowing "Just So".

That's what i have found anyhow , and i wouldn't be in too much of a rush to get back down to familiar territory in 1st pos. i would explore the higher pos first....It might be easier up there?

Thanks ya'll for all the comments and encouragement. I have some sawing to do!

Pogo was listening -

When I was first learning, I was sitting on the wall that surrounds the Stone County Courthouse at MtnView, Arkansas. It was late in the evening and folks were heading to their various accommodations and the crowd was thinning out. I was making an awful racket trying to play anything that sounded anywhere near to what I had been hearing earlier in the day. An old-timer carrying a fiddle case stopped by and listened to me a minute, then said (and yes, I quote!) "The secret to old-time Ozark fidding is down-bow on the down-beat."

That little piece of advice just made sense to me and has stuck with me 50+ years later! My playing improved literally overnight!

I don't know who the gentleman was, but I saw him in subsequent years at the Festival. He was a very good fiddler and had that look of years of a hard life. My friends who lived in MtnView knew of him, but did not know his name. He seemed to keep to himself mostly.

Good luck!

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

I'm kinda with Brett...
the first thing to train is actually your Ear, your Listening (which I think you are already good at!!)
Then, can keep messin' and playing and experimenting with your bowing until it sounds the way you want...
separate bows sounds wrong? try slurring.
slurring sounds too "soft", not rhythmic enough? put in some separate bows.
you want an accent, but not a big hard one? try speeding up your bow without actually changing direction (bow swell, I think it's called?)
Can even try messing around with bow just with open strings, seeing what it sounds like when you do different things...
and it will come! It will come with time!

One thought is that if you are doing something hard with your left hand (fingering) then it's hard to focus on bowing. It's easier to concentrate on bowing when your left hand knows what to do/is on "auto pilot" So don't be too critical when you're learning a new tune...polish and play with your bowing on older tunes you know very well...

Love that quote Peggy!
Unfortunately my front stoop is made of concrete like you...I guess we'll be at this a looong time...:-D

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Great points, esp  "experimenting with your bowing until it sounds the way you want..." One idea/approach is bit like the infants learning to talk, they babble experiment with sounds and combinations; find what is useful to form words in language, what not so much...  to where eventually just have a thought how want to sound, pronounce, articulate and speak; don't think about mechanics of tongue/mouth/lips. Similar goal for bow. 

But will point out, Erockin is trying to follow instructors bowing instruction. A struggle with learning from bowing instructions; notation, or bowing patterns... might be that it does not match rhythm/accent/flow and phrasing you imagine or feel to be; or feels right to you. That type of directional bowing first instruction, might be just lesson, used as example, a way to teach the student's ear what the rhythmic feel of accent/flow; as created from just directional bowing. Might be esp. useful where it somewhat gives bit of syncopation against the expected metric accent.

This is often a bit of inverse process to using your personal imagination of right feel of the rhythm first; then experiment, work out possible ways to achieve what matches that feel, what feels right. (and might come up with various similar alternative solutions). FWIW, for me, not all music/rhythm I want to listen to or play follows some algorithm rule, such as the down bow always on the down beat; only if it creates the feel; and there are many different feels.

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I think of there are two aspects to bow direction. One, as point out, is simply effect from the change of bow direction, when those occur, and creating a difference of slur/legato vs separation/detache. The other is actual whether up or down. Default for most folks is it feels more natural to have down bow give stronger accent; but either direction can accent. So kind of question of how important is bow direction? For me, some phrases or rhythm it is; other phrases, or parts of phrases, not so much; I typically default to down bow accent, but many cases found I can variate.  

Part of that, to me, is that rhythmic accent/flow isn't created from just through bow direction; but also other elements in the music and articulation create rhythm and accent (as illustrated by non-bowed instruments). Dynamic (loud/soft) accent is what most folks think of; can be from variable degree of pressure, speed, snap to attack (as well envelope articulation, end of note), which can controlled either down or up. A few other main ways are difference of long/short note values; the difference of pitch jump low/high; and then harmonic aspects (like chord tones). To finer articulation like length of envelope (short/choppy vs held/sustained) and slight timing like pushing forward on front of attack. These all serve to create various degree of accents, and combinations of each; which feed into the overall rhythmic feel and flow (in relation to metric default); and sense of phrasing. IMO, often overwhelm the effect of just bow direction of each note.

I mostly don't really analyze or break it all like that.. just realization from experimenting, and using some combination of all aspects that sounds/feels right.  

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

I'm kinda with Brett...
the first thing to train is actually your Ear, your Listening (which I think you are already good at!!)
Then, can keep messin' and playing and experimenting with your bowing until it sounds the way you want...
separate bows sounds wrong? try slurring.
slurring sounds too "soft", not rhythmic enough? put in some separate bows.
you want an accent, but not a big hard one? try speeding up your bow without actually changing direction (bow swell, I think it's called?)
Can even try messing around with bow just with open strings, seeing what it sounds like when you do different things...
and it will come! It will come with time!

One thought is that if you are doing something hard with your left hand (fingering) then it's hard to focus on bowing. It's easier to concentrate on bowing when your left hand knows what to do/is on "auto pilot" So don't be too critical when you're learning a new tune...polish and play with your bowing on older tunes you know very well...

Love that quote Peggy!
Unfortunately my front stoop is made of concrete like you...I guess we'll be at this a looong time...:-D

---

Great points, esp  "experimenting with your bowing until it sounds the way you want..." One idea/approach is bit like the infants learning to talk, they babble experiment with sounds and combinations; find what is useful to form words in language, what not so much...  to where eventually just have a thought how want to sound, pronounce, articulate and speak; don't think about mechanics of tongue/mouth/lips. Similar goal for bow. 

But will point out, Erockin is trying to follow instructors bowing instruction. A struggle with learning from bowing instructions; notation, or bowing patterns... might be that it does not match rhythm/accent/flow and phrasing you imagine or feel to be; or feels right to you. That type of directional bowing first instruction, might be just lesson, used as example, a way to teach the student's ear what the rhythmic feel of accent/flow; as created from just directional bowing. Might be esp. useful where it somewhat gives bit of syncopation against the expected metric accent.

This is often a bit of inverse process to using your personal imagination of right feel of the rhythm first; then experiment, work out possible ways to achieve what matches that feel, what feels right. (and might come up with various similar alternative solutions). FWIW, for me, not all music/rhythm I want to listen to or play follows some algorithm rule, such as the down bow always on the down beat; only if it creates the feel; and there are many different feels.

----------

I think of there are two aspects to bow direction. One, as point out, is simply effect from the change of bow direction, when those occur, and creating a difference of slur/legato vs separation/detache. The other is actual whether up or down. Default for most folks is it feels more natural to have down bow give stronger accent; but either direction can accent. So kind of question of how important is bow direction? For me, some phrases or rhythm it is; other phrases, or parts of phrases, not so much; I typically default to down bow accent, but many cases found I can variate.  

Part of that, to me, is that rhythmic accent/flow isn't created from just through bow direction; but also other elements in the music and articulation create rhythm and accent (as illustrated by non-bowed instruments). Dynamic (loud/soft) accent is what most folks think of; can be from variable degree of pressure, speed, snap to attack (as well envelope articulation, end of note), which can controlled either down or up. A few other main ways are difference of long/short note values; the difference of pitch jump low/high; and then harmonic aspects (like chord tones). To finer articulation like length of envelope (short/choppy vs held/sustained) and slight timing like pushing forward on front of attack. These all serve to create various degree of accents, and combinations of each; which feed into the overall rhythmic feel and flow (in relation to metric default); and sense of phrasing. IMO, often overwhelm the effect of just bow direction of each note.

I mostly don't really analyze or break it all like that.. just realization from experimenting, and using some combination of all aspects that sounds/feels right.  

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You're nailing it! lol....I am trying now to be more aware of the down on the down. I get that. I've been a drummer for almost 25 years so knowing the beat comes pretty natural however, when I got my fiddle, I just started sawing away. I watched I few videos but I've been admiring fiddle players my whole life so I thought I could just start sawing away but when I break it way down, I seem to get dumber if that makes sense?

For instance, in a year, I'm able to hear a song and fake along with it pretty good. It's not right. but it's a start. My bow directions are all over the place...lol. Like most instruments, I sorta go on my own path so with violin, I'm trying to change my ways. Thanks again for the input. It's exciting and little break through can go  along way! I have my Wednesday lesson tonight and I'm REALLY close to having Big Footed Man....and tomorrow night, I'm heading to my new teacher.

Thanks again!

Technically... I'd suggest an exercise to help with bowing direction (and bowing in general). A fiddler can lay the bow on the strings, leave it, and do a lot of nice things from string to string. But, whatever the tune, instead concentrate on the bow striking each string/melody note separately...the bow leaving the string (or at least lifting somewhat) each time. Think about the bow as it makes initial contact with the string... every time...every note. Feel the rosin connecting with the string and the little bit of scrape that's needed to make the tone... every time...every note.

This exercise can ease tension the bowing arm, create lift, clarity, and definition whether the bow is going up or down.

Musically... A basic definition of rhythm is "a strong, regular, repeated pattern of movement or sound" is. But don't fall into the trap of thinking there is "one" correct pulse. Good players "play" with this and find their own phrasing. For instance, two players tapping the same downbeat can play the same tune and not gel stylistically. They have to make a conscious effort to play together.

A LOT of old time players are told not to worry about bow direction. It will come. I think if you can aim to have a down bow on the down beat you'll have less trouble. But you will find that you'll end up with a down bow on every other down beat. That's okay, usually one down beat is stronger than the other. Sometimes you can do two up-bows sorta to get yourself going down in the right place. Experiment and see what works, figure out what you have to do to get that down bow on the down beat.

A while back I asked an excellent fiddler about this. He said that he never worried about bow direction, only played to get the right tone, volume, rhythm etc. He said it was important to be able to do everything on both upbows and downbows -- in other words, just focus on the music and making it sound the way you want it. He said that he did evolve specific bowing patterns on certain tunes, but he got there by focusing on the music, not the mechanics.

David Bragger demanded his students always start with a down bow. Or at least for the One, the first beat in the measure. So we did.

I've taken several David Bragger workshops and I struggled so hard with following the up-down-up-down stuff. Too many ingrained bad habits I guess. He's given me a lot of useful information over the years. I think the best thing I got from him was a workshop on fiddle backing. It's really fun to play backup chords on fiddle. You can just shuffle the rhythm without worrying about the individual notes, and then you can try to sneak in more and more notes as you go and sort of get it to come together that way.

I also took some Irish fiddle lessons and struggled with following the up/down, too. I'd get so lost. If the bow didn't go right I'd have to start over again!

I found this good youtube video that showed different strategies for bowing Irish tunes and it made me realize there are many ways to do it and sometimes up-bows can emphasize the beat, too. This is the video I'm talking about. youtube.com/watch?v=9ZMqFVB_GJI

I also had the good luck to take a workshop with Greg Canote at the Goleta Old Time fiddler's thing and he has to be the best teacher I've ever experienced. He makes it so simple. He showed us what he called "the dip". I couldn't for the life of me get the tune he was teaching, but I got "the dip" and now I sneak that into lots of tunes. If you can ever take a workshop with him it's worth it.

quote:

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

I've taken several David Bragger workshops and I struggled so hard with following the up-down-up-down stuff. Too many ingrained bad habits I guess. He's given me a lot of useful information over the years. I think the best thing I got from him was a workshop on fiddle backing. It's really fun to play backup chords on fiddle. You can just shuffle the rhythm without worrying about the individual notes, and then you can try to sneak in more and more notes as you go and sort of get it to come together that way.

I also took some Irish fiddle lessons and struggled with following the up/down, too. I'd get so lost. If the bow didn't go right I'd have to start over again!

I found this good youtube video that showed different strategies for bowing Irish tunes and it made me realize there are many ways to do it and sometimes up-bows can emphasize the beat, too. This is the video I'm talking about. youtube.com/watch?v=9ZMqFVB_GJI

I also had the good luck to take a workshop with Greg Canote at the Goleta Old Time fiddler's thing and he has to be the best teacher I've ever experienced. He makes it so simple. He showed us what he called "the dip". I couldn't for the life of me get the tune he was teaching, but I got "the dip" and now I sneak that into lots of tunes. If you can ever take a workshop with him it's worth it.

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I think a workshop would be life changing for sure! Also, getting together with some other fiddlers and jams that are open to others. Thanks for the link...I'll check that out now! 

"A friend reported that once at a festival demonstration of great fiddlers, several fiddlers were on stage and each held a lit cigarette in his/her bow hand. As the fiddlers played a tune the lights were turned out and alz people could see were the cigarettes glowing.. He said the all were doing different stuff as demonstrated bye glowing embers but together all sounded great.."

I use that technique when I am showing a beginner how to do the various shuffles. You can see from the glowing 'trail' of the butt what pattern bowing to use for a given shuffle.

Last Friday my wife threw a surprise birthday party/pick and I think we played for 7 hrs straight...lol
I was finally able to jump into a jam and hang a we bit until a great fiddle player showed up and I didn't let that stop me!
I am humbled by the violin and the sooner you let go of some of the reservations and ego, it can be really fun to jam. We had members from all sorts of current and previous projects I had been a part of. From OT, to Jam Band to Bluegrass to Songwriters...Such a fun time.

When accompanying another fiddle in a jam, I asked her first if she minded that I stand beside and play with and off of her, tastefully of course and when I attempted breaks, she kinda played behind me which helped. We actually did a full version of Angeline with the harmony parts and once the song ended, I had the biggest smile. It was intoxicating. That whole trance thing...Not once did I think about bow direction. However I felt the tension in my head and neck from not being relaxed. To the point I was sore the next day. Gotta work on that!

Another cool thing in my fiddle world was I haven't been studying my lesson goals...busy...busy and busy. Distracted mostly. Well we paused on June Apple cuz I just don't have the bowing ready and it wasn't clicking with me (YET) and we've moved onto Cold Frosty Morning. It had been a couple weeks since my last lesson and last night I was to have it down and I spaced and waited an hour before my lesson to finally get this down. It's strange that when you put an instrument down for a couple days and come back, everything seemed to click!