You have plugged back into my earlier discussion about playing speed, and even the psychology of what happens playing well fast. Your sense of having spaces around the notes, of nothing feeling chopped up but there being time for everything being done, that's what I've been seeking. Maybe to some degree I get there sometimes, but I'm not as comfortable in it as you I suspect. A lot of that earlier thread was people suggesting things like practicing slower which missed my point. What you just said, that's what I am working on.

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

You have plugged back into my earlier discussion about playing speed, and even the psychology of what happens playing well fast. Your sense of having spaces around the notes, of nothing feeling chopped up but there being time for everything being done, that's what I've been seeking. Maybe to some degree I get there sometimes, but I'm not as comfortable in it as you I suspect. A lot of that earlier thread was people suggesting things like practicing slower which missed my point. What you just said, that's what I am working on.

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Brian, are there some tune you play now where you have that sense of not rushing and time for every note?  

I now do my best to, at least when it comes to tempo, let the punishment fit the crime. Because I'll probably never do a dance again. I'll luxuriate in a pretty tune. I'll dash through one what says, "dash." I'll galumph through one... Etc., etc.

Arkansas Traveler, was my kryptonite. Now, it's a non-issue. I'm not an expert, nor teacher, but it seems to me, one must simply play the h@ll out of it. I also do that with piano tunes. I recon as one does this, everything gets better. Technique gets better. Memory gets better. Everything. Some say there is no shortcut. I say, it IS the shortcut. Depending upon the person, it could be 100 repetitions, it could be 10. If one starts out with a goal of learning 50 tunes, the first tune may take more repetitions than the last. But that's just a theory. I've never learned 50 tunes. I've re- learned hundreds of tunes. Now, I pretty much learn or re-learn any tune I set out to play. I think it means my brain is moosh. Much the same as mashed potatoes.

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Arkansas Traveler, was my kryptonite. Now, it's a non-issue. I'm not an expert, nor teacher, but it seems to me, one must simply play the h@ll out of it. I also do that with piano tunes. I recon as one does this, everything gets better. Technique gets better. Memory gets better. Everything. Some say there is no shortcut. I say, it IS the shortcut. Depending upon the person, it could be 100 repetitions, it could be 10. If one starts out with a goal of learning 50 tunes, the first tune may take more repetitions than the last. But that's just a theory. I've never learned 50 tunes. I've re- learned hundreds of tunes. Now, I pretty much learn or re-learn any tune I set out to play. I think it means my brain is moosh. Much the same as mashed potatoes.

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Good points.. When one is a beginner and can play fifty tunes that is good.. A few years down the line when that person has mor skill, they'll relearn the same fifty tunes but with newly acquired skill.  So, in a sense  tunes must constantly be relearned.. 

This could speak to the speed subject:
My fiddle tunes, are kind of inbred. I play them at whatever speed it takes to get it all in. Most of the times call it a "lope." Rather than a Gallup. It kind of erks me when the accompaniment speeds up. I totally understand the rhythm of a fiddle doesn't hit you in the face. You have to be used to playing with a fiddler. Then you have to give a dang. You have to play it at a the speed the fiddler is at, instead of what you hear in your head. Once apon a time there was bass player that roamed around the rendezvous looking for jams. Then whatever the tune, he'd speed it up and watch the trouble insue. Then say,"you sure were in a hurry to get that tune over." Like, a fiddle could pull him down. Well, he's in bass player h@ll now. A good jammer, player, musician, listens, and listens more than he/she plays.

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I suspect that we've all tried to learn tunes that seemed impossibly fast when we initially heard them. After days, weeks, month, YEARS, the tunes no longer seem fast.

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There were also those, initially hearing tunes (esp at session) - that others playing it didn't seem like was going impossibly fast; nor complex; could mentally follow it, or hum along. But the moment pick up fiddle to join along; seems like they sped up or added complexity.

Then there are tunes that, at least as I recall in my youth, didn't seem impossibly fast and was able to keep up just fine; but now struggle as seem impossibly fast.

Hmmm .... the space between the notes. Allowing a tune to breathe. Lively without sounding like some kind of " who can keep up" NASCSR event. I want music I play to be one, recognizable, two played in such a way as to move the listeners and other players and three to harken back to other versions of the same song or tune, a bit. Getting into that zone alone is a bit easier, though not much, than in a group or jam setting, but when it all works together it's magical. On learning, relearning, it seems to me that the more I know and learn the more I hear when I relisten to something I have played at for sometimes years. So it's like a ladder.... the higher I get on the rungs the more I can see needs painting. Play on friends, you continue to challenge and teach me. R/

This is a great listen...I think Tony sums up timing here in this video if you feel so inclined. Happy Friday ya'll!

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

 

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Brian, are there some tune you play now where you have that sense of not rushing and time for every note?  

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It's relative, but I don't notice tunes seeming to slow down over time, as you put it. For me it takes practice to make tunes faster, otherwise I find I am very consistent. My faster tunes, and I have many, I play in the 100 to 110 BPM zone. I've pushed it a little beyond for dances. But 100 BPM is a comfortable uptempo for me. I have been practicing playing some tunes faster and may be making slow (ha-ha) progress.

This is something I've been consciously working on...getting "air" between notes.

I agree that tunes "slow down"... as I learn something, I need to play it slow...but then that pace starts to feel like it's draggy and your mind starts drifting while you play...so then it feels good to play it faster...and when it gets super-familiar, then you can play quite fast but feel as relaxed as you were when it was slow.

As for 100bpm, I found that for me it depends on the tune!
"Notey" tunes feel crazy at 100 bpm, and tunes with fewer notes feel playable and comfortable at 100bpm or even higher.

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Originally posted by NCnotes

As for 100bpm, I found that for me it depends on the tune!
"Notey" tunes feel crazy at 100 bpm, and tunes with fewer notes feel playable and comfortable at 100bpm or even higher.

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That's absolutely the case. It's notey tunes that I can play at 95 or a hundred that hang me up any faster.

Related, as a beginner trying to bring standard fiddle tunes up to speed I have two strategies. The first is to just practice the song, or parts of the song, at a slower speed and then gradually speed it up over time, as I get better at the song and at the fiddle. To my way of thinking that's the standard approach, play it slow and then gradually get faster.

The second strategy, which is kind fun, and actually harder for me (although one would think that it would be easier), is to figure out how to play the song at tempo by leaving out some notes, or sluring notes, or doing some kind of trick (a long slide, for example)...the ultimate goal being to have less notes to play or less bow changes to make in order to go faster, but to preserve the essence of the song.

This stuck with me from some liner notes I read a couple years back, and I dug it up again to share. They describe the Camp Creek Boys playing as: "solid, lively dance time, not to slow, not too fast, - 'giving all the notes a chance to sound' as Kyle (Creed) put it."

I like the reminder that each note has unique value, regardless of its duration. And I can't say it better than Kyle.

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Originally posted by doryman

Related, as a beginner trying to bring standard fiddle tunes up to speed I have two strategies. The first is to just practice the song, or parts of the song, at a slower speed and then gradually speed it up over time, as I get better at the song and at the fiddle. To my way of thinking that's the standard approach, play it slow and then gradually get faster.

The second strategy, which is kind fun, and actually harder for me (although one would think that it would be easier), is to figure out how to play the song at tempo by leaving out some notes, or sluring notes, or doing some kind of trick (a long slide, for example)...the ultimate goal being to have less notes to play or less bow changes to make in order to go faster, but to preserve the essence of the song.

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Standard approach, (maybe for formal trained?) -  really depends a bit on music background/culture; and perhaps different goals. I learned mostly more along lines of the latter; fairly standard in my folk oriented background/culture and goals; and learning by ear (didn't have much way to slow down; nor had notation). Wasn't so much concern about simply speed for speed sake; or how fast can go; but learning with music at it's regular tempo; as tempo is not afterthought, but more integrated part of the music, giving right feel.

The latter, I would describe not so much as just leaving out some notes... but a bit hierarchy top down idea. Involves understanding bit of how music works (a form of theory)... in order to ascertain what aspects/elements make the more foundational frame and core; and other elements and role; perhaps as fill or maybe even ornament; to help reinforce within that core. (to which can gradually refine, add in later). Maybe kind of think along lines of 80/20 idea.

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Originally posted by Earworm

This stuck with me from some liner notes I read a couple years back, and I dug it up again to share. They describe the Camp Creek Boys playing as: "solid, lively dance time, not to slow, not too fast, - 'giving all the notes a chance to sound' as Kyle (Creed) put it."

I like the reminder that each note has unique value, regardless of its duration. And I can't say it better than Kyle.

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As per the OP - "fast" is relative perception... Kyle's comment might been referring to compared to more emerging bluegrass, Earl Scruggs fast.  But for many folks getting into OT today, might consider most anything along lines of Camp Creek Boys, or Kyle Creed as... pretty darn "fast" to them; perhaps blazingly too fast. Seems to be a lot more folks want to play these tunes quite a bit slower tempo; might consider around 120 to be really fast (including idea of too fast to give notes chance to sound?).

One day after watching a documentary about how the 'fly' insect sees I thought if only we could hear like the fly sees. You see, the fly can see in slow motion, that is why he can make a quick getaway when you try to swat him, of course you can catch him if you come from behind, but when he sees you coming, he's got plenty of time to get away because he's seeing you move in slow motion. This can relate to the 'act of hearing' through 'anticipation'; we imagine and hear everything we're going to play a nano-second before we actually play it, which, I believe creates the illusion of a greater time and space. Just like the 'fly' we developed this skill through evolution; but 'we' practiced a lot. This skill of 'anticipation' is naturally developed after a certain amount of time/years practicing just playing tunes. Or, we could consciously practice honing this skill.
Playing less notes would be a good starting point, and I mean actually play half the number notes that usually exist in a popular fiddle tune like Soldier's Joy, which derived from a song, play the song melody at the same tempo as the fiddle tune melody. My point is that even though a fiddle tune may not be derived from a song the number of notes can still be reduced by half or more. And the reason for doing that would be to practice the above skill and learn the structure of the tune thoroughly; contour of the melody, type of chord progression and to add other notes for a variation or improvisation.
I'm most always reluctant to play "Devil's Dream" at jams because I know there's usually someone who wants to race with the fiddle, I'm playing it fast as it is and if we go any faster my fingers will drop off, trying to hold it back all the way through is no fun. I mentioned this to the band and the last time we rehearsed this tune it had a steady tempo, which was maintain by the bass player holding back, he was actually playing behind the beat.

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

The latter, I would describe not so much as just leaving out some notes... but a bit hierarchy top down idea. Involves understanding bit of how music works (a form of theory)... in order to ascertain what aspects/elements make the more foundational frame and core; and other elements and role; perhaps as fill or maybe even ornament; to help reinforce within that core. (to which can gradually refine, add in later). Maybe kind of think along lines of 80/20 idea.

Yes, exactly this!  That is why it's fun AND challenging for me. it's not just leaving notes out. 

I’m not a fan of leaving notes out. That’s more an exercise in phrasing. I am interested in increasing the speed of the phrases I know.

I am interested in increasing the speed of the phrases I know.

Peghead posted a very knowable reply in your 'Sour Grapes' thread...

That was nearly 3 months ago..

I'm just curious; have you applied any of his suggestions to your practice routine..? 

John Hartford had the theory of ghost notes. He demonstrated by signing his name in cursive, lifting the pen momentarily on each stroke. Then explained the brain fills in the part that's missing.
My problem with this is I can't do it well spontaneously. As most folks, if a tune gets too fast, my fingers get late, and that's that. Doesn't sound artful at all. One has to know a tune pretty well, to know what can be left out. I'll be in the shed. . .

For most tunes, there are beginner versions, intermediate versions, jam versions and show versions.. Each tends to have a different number on notes...If one tries to play a version with more notes than they can play it might be more fun to play a simpler version.. or as has been suggested, just remove some note --temporarily--.
At Clifftop a few years ago I was offering free lessons and this one guy came because he said he needed help.. I asked him to play a tune and he play a complex version, fast, of a common tune. He asked what I thought.  He sounded terrible..It seemed that he clearly had fiddling skills but was playing his chosen tune WAY faster than his skill level.. I suggested he play the tune again but at about a 75% speed...He did, and sounded Great..even he was surprised how well he sounded.. End of lesson.."Don't play faster than you know how''....unless you are intentionally trying to 'push'..

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I am interested in increasing the speed of the phrases I know.

Peghead posted a very knowable reply in your 'Sour Grapes' thread...

That was nearly 3 months ago..

I'm just curious; have you applied any of his suggestions to your practice routine..? 

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Sure, that was a thoughtful post. There wasn't much to disagree with there.

One way I like to practice, when I have the patience for it, is this: I take a tune I know well, or want to work on, and play it. Then I play it again slower. Then I play it again slower, Then I play it again slower, until it gets ridiculously slow and I have to think differently. Then I play it again a few times, but speed it up again at similar tempo increments, likely until I'm playing faster (and cleaner) than I did in the first place.

It doesn't have to be a whole tune, but can also be good with just a tricky phrase, or part. I don't do it on any regular plan or schedule, but when I do, I always learn stuff. I would recommend it to anybody.

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Originally posted by buckhenry

This skill of 'anticipation' is naturally developed after a certain amount of time/years practicing just playing tunes. Or, we could consciously practice honing this skill.
 

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That seems true to me. Coupling that with the notion of humming or hearing a tune in your head at a faster tempo than you have been playing it seems a good idea. I often hum tunes when I walk, and maybe I should walk slower and double the time, or start jogging.