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Originally posted by RichJ

Several weeks ago I raised a question asking opinions on teaching beginners to play on a cross tuned fiddle ...

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I live in a rural valley with a couple small towns. I have considered just putting an ad in the local paper to see if anyone was interested in playing old time music at all. But I think anybody who cares already knows I play, so I haven't.  Anyway, I think your ad for playing cross-tuned is too specific. Maybe just see if you can find anyone interested in the old time style to begin with. Cross tune can come later, maybe.

Me, I've found I'm not comfortable playing cross-tuned as I'm too into standard tuning. I do, however, learn some cross-tune style tunes with a buddy who plays that way, mostly in A,  but I find ways to play them straight. It's interesting.

Yes, I'm not surprised you got no responses. I agree its too specific - why would anyone in NE Connecticut know what "cross tuning" is, even if they might know what "old time" is? Except for maybe some French Canadian tunes, cross tuning was virtually unknown traditionally in New England, as it was in much of the country.
Also, I'm not sure too many people want to volunter to be a "guinea pig" either!
In case I didn't say so in your earlier thread, I don't think this is a good idea to begin with. Its too limiting - why cut beginners off from the huge number of tunes played in standard tuning, which is really no harder to learn. However you cut it, you gotta learn where the notes are, and I don't think its easier if they jump around every time you change key.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to try. I'm not surprised with the result. But - you can't win if you don't enter. kudos

I know folks who have tried several times to encourage folks to come to our old time music jams in Memphis (larger than 24k pop). It was a long running add in Craig's List. You would think there would be more interest. The Mid South area does have a fairly rich history in old time music. But - he had very few responses - and no one came more than once. You would be surprised at how many of us folks there are playing this music in our area. 

I could tell you about my experiences too. 

There really isn't that many people who even have an idea about what old time music is, or would recognize it if they heard it, much less have a desire to play it. A friend and I play old time fiddle tunes (fiddle and banjo) at a Farmer's Market each Saturday, and almost without fail - someone will stop and tell us how much they love to hear bluegrass music. We make a token attempt at educating, but when we see their eyes glazing over while they nod out of kindness - we realize we are wasting our time. To them it is still bluegrass - they know what they know.

We have been gifted with an obsession for the obscure.  I still haven't figure it out yet - is it the fiddle or old time music that has a hold on me?  Yeap. 

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Originally posted by DougD

In case I didn't say so in your earlier thread, I don't think this is a good idea to begin with. Its too limiting - why cut beginners off from the huge number of tunes played in standard tuning, which is really no harder to learn. However you cut it, you gotta learn where the notes are, and I don't think its easier if they jump around every time you change key.

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Hey Doug, Thanks for the input, but I'm not sure I understand how introductory exposure to fiddling with a cross tuned fiddle would be "too limiting." Don't know about other genres but as far as OT goes I doubt there are many tunes played in standard that couldn't also be played in cross. There's only so much one can cover in a few weeks/month s of introductory lessons regardless of the instrument tuning. From my own experience It takes years for the world of fiddling to open up for the novice. But, once they get bit, there's no to end to the territory an addicted fiddler will set out to explore. So my guess is sooner or later they'd likely drift into trying standard tuning.

Local shoppers guide? Probably not much of a test, I don't think as I would get much bite from that. 

But even then, it's not a particularly good ad... pretty confusing. Who would this be for? I agree with Doug, it's pretty limiting... in seems incredibly narrow target demographic.

You would only appeal to beginners, interested in not just fiddling, but who happen to know what "old-time" means; and further what "cross-tuned fiddle" means. Makes more narrow... if they don't know what those terms mean, then probably ignore the ad.

Further, even if found few that might...  the  "guinea pigs" - makes it as some experiment (maybe interpret as cross-tune is some new experimental methodology?)... probably not many people want to be part of.  That is if they really were interested in learning fiddle from instructors, probably want some more tried and true established methodology. 

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Didn't see the original topic, or what was trying to find out? I have had some students pretty much start out with various cross tuning; but those folks goal more started with idea of old fiddling (as opposed to violin); to which various tunings fit within those goals. Mostly it's similar to learning OT banjo; just start with learning tunes in different keys, tuning that goes with it; ADAE for D, AEAE for A; with GDAE for G and A Modal. 

But depends. not all students have that mindset, or specific goal (or can grasp that non-violin aspects). So a lot of them, makes more sense start them with idea of "standard", like in the violin world. (then maybe cross after master GDAE; as alt/diversion, novelty)

I'll ask, how did you get introduced to Old Time?
A music store? A rendezvous? A Contra Dance?
Even after I knew what it was, I found it such a subculture, I couldn't find anyone locally to play with, so I consider it an aside. No, I'm not going to burn up $100 gas to play OT.

As far as tuning: I started a guitar student using open G tuning. The idea on introducing bar chords, and familiarity with 1-4-5 chord progression. The 60+ year old student (same as me) is enthusiastic but not terribly dedicated. His coordination is gaining. The goal is fun first. Y'know we're having so much fun. The only thing better than a good jam, is a student excelling.

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I'll ask, how did you get introduced to Old Time?

Interesting question there farmerjones. As a retired veterinary pathologist (another somewhat esoteric activity) my exposure to music has been rather spotty. Forced into  piano lessons as a kid I had more fun with that piano after mom realized those expensive lessons weren’t taking me to stardom. Afterward, I loved sitting down with the thing for hours just fooling around with chords and simple improvisations. Old Time music was something that just crept in. I certainly never heard much of it growing up in a northeastern city like Hartford, CT. There was always something haunting about the stuff, especially  those modal banjo and fiddle tunes, that really grabbed me. Fifty years later, after retiring, I took some free fiddle lessons sponsored by a local fiddlers club hoping those would help learn how to play OT like a fiddler – after all the folks in that club all called themselves fiddlers. But after I learned how to scratch out a few tunes and joined that club I found out everyone there used sheet music and needed a damn music stand to play anything.  Few were even remotely interested in playing OT. After 3 years I had enough and quit. Since then my music experience is focused on learning about OT and other stuff from places like FHO and YT. OT still grabs hold of me, something deep and almost hypnotic about it, again mostly those modal tunes. But now I can play a few of those tunes  and get real satisfaction from this in my dotage. My thoughts and  efforts with those cross tuned lesson is simply an attempt to try to share some of this with others. But yeah, I guess it is pretty esoteric stuff with a relatively scant following.  

Over here in NC, Old-Time seems pretty mainstream and popular!
The OT players are a big crowd compared to Irish Trad players (we are few, but dedicated).
If you ever make it to NC, we can check out an OT jam together (I hear about them / get invited, but I haven't gone :-)

re Ad - Yea I didn't know what "cross tuned" meant until I joined this forum.
I bet it sounds hard to people (I know it did, to me. ) ?

( Veterinary pathologist is very cool profession, thank you for your work. We lost our beloved dog a few weeks ago... :-(

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Local shoppers guide? Probably not much of a test, I don't think as I would get much bite from that. 

But even then, it's not a particularly good ad... pretty confusing. Who would this be for? I agree with Doug, it's pretty limiting... in seems incredibly narrow target demographic.

You would only appeal to beginners, interested in not just fiddling, but who happen to know what "old-time" means; and further what "cross-tuned fiddle" means. Makes more narrow... if they don't know what those terms mean, then probably ignore the ad.

Further, even if found few that might...  the  "guinea pigs" - makes it as some experiment (maybe interpret as cross-tune is some new experimental methodology?)... probably not many people want to be part of.  That is if they really were interested in learning fiddle from instructors, probably want some more tried and true established methodology. 

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Didn't see the original topic, or what was trying to find out? I have had some students pretty much start out with various cross tuning; but those folks goal more started with idea of old fiddling (as opposed to violin); to which various tunings fit within those goals. Mostly it's similar to learning OT banjo; just start with learning tunes in different keys, tuning that goes with it; ADAE for D, AEAE for A; with GDAE for G and A Modal. 

But depends. not all students have that mindset, or specific goal (or can grasp that non-violin aspects). So a lot of them, makes more sense start them with idea of "standard", like in the violin world. (then maybe cross after master GDAE; as alt/diversion, novelty)

Hey Alaska - thanks for those comments. Even with the bark on I agree with the gist of what you said.  I sorta lost sight of the fact you need to find folks who are interested in OT music or at least have some idea of what it is before you can start teaching them how to play it. 

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Originally posted by NCnotes

Over here in NC, Old-Time seems pretty mainstream and popular!
The OT players are a big crowd compared to Irish Trad players (we are few, but dedicated).
If you ever make it to NC, we can check out an OT jam together (I hear about them / get invited, but I haven't gone :-)

re Ad - Yea I didn't know what "cross tuned" meant until I joined this forum.
I bet it sounds hard to people (I know it did, to me. ) ?

( Veterinary pathologist is very cool profession, thank you for your work. We lost our beloved dog a few weeks ago... :-(

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Thanks for the invite NC, sure sounds like fun. Don't get down that way much, but I'll sure keep it in mind. So sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. They sure do have a way of becoming part of the family with all the hurt that goes along with having to say that last good bye.

Hey, here's a thought - Does interest in OT lead one to play the fiddle or is it the other way around?

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Originally posted by RichJ

Hey, here's a thought - Does interest in OT lead one to play the fiddle or is it the other way around?

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Well, considering it takes a full weekend to learn OT banjer. . . .

C'mon, I'm kidding 

I bought a fiddle and a search for a good teacher led me to Old Time.

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Originally posted by RichJ

Hey, here's a thought - Does interest in OT lead one to play the fiddle or is it the other way around?

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Kind of applies to any genre or instrument. Could be either... or neither exactly.

Few started with a mindset of playing a singular specific instrument in very specific singular genre/style; and that's all they ever pursued.

Certainly there are folks that started with just interest in just playing fiddle. They enjoy the sound and idea of fiddling... but with no particular genre/style in mind... and early on explore all sorts. Of course, some come from previous experience with violin.

Certainly there are folks started with overall interest in a more specific genre (esp if grew up around it); more as listener, just enjoy listening to that genre/style; recordings, or being around it in live performances, dances, parties, festivals. As they decide to participate, might not be fixed on fiddle, but consider, or dabble with a few different ones before fiddle.

For a lot folks, was probably combination of both... with little to no prior experience with either...  just started with more the large broad idea of folk/traditional music itself; or maybe idea acoustic music. (some might involve overall romanticized image, folk, fiddling that can be associated).  Discovering new and diverse world of music, that's neither classical nor commercial/pop; and encourages participation... with it initially neither fixed on any specific style nor instrument. Despite what started, pretty typical as get more into it, with experience, will lead to exposed to other music and musicians.. similar genres, and instruments; and expand.

Perhaps follow up question... has getting into playing fiddle exposed you to other music would have never thought about?