I use a rest, but these days it's mostly to keep the fiddle at a particular angle. I say "use" but the fiddle is rarely actually making contact with my chin as I often lift my chin or lower the neck to give my ears the ability to hear others better. I might be wrong about how often I do that. @jonD might be able to corroborate or offer another perspective as we play together often.

You got to go with what your body tells you what works and is comfortable. If you think you're on the wrong track when you use a particular fiddle hold, try another. I haven't been to a genuine symphony concert in a while, but whenever I go to one or see one on TV I look at each violin player and see how they hold the instrument. Each time I do this I notice that as precise and united as the bowing might be, in no way do all the fiddlers hold their instrument the same way.

Sometimes I think it would be good to not use a shoulder rest, as I do. (quick, easy deployment) But what I essentially require is traction or friction with my shirt. So I'd either have to attach/glue something on the fiddle, or something on the shirt. (means I could only wear a certain shirt, no.)
So far, I've not come up with a solution.
BTW, I'm aware of straps too. Tried one. Meh. Definitely not better than a shoulder rest.

I used to use a shoulder rest when I started but no longer feel the need of using one. Learning to play the fiddle at an older age, as do many of us, can be the source of more aches and pains then I care to elaborate. I remember having pains in my neck and jaw for several weeks after starting to learn and It almost led to seeking medical attention before I realized it was due to weird muscle tensions whenever I picked the damn thing up. It took years to get rid of tension when playing.

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Sometimes I think it would be good to not use a shoulder rest, as I do. (quick, easy deployment) But what I essentially require is traction or friction with my shirt. So I'd either have to attach/glue something on the fiddle, or something on the shirt. (means I could only wear a certain shirt, no.)
So far, I've not come up with a solution.
BTW, I'm aware of straps too. Tried one. Meh. Definitely not better than a shoulder rest.

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I had the problem on a smooth sweater. I devised to use a piece of rough out leather which I've been using for years. I'm thinking that it could be smaller as the most important area is the edge of the fiddle that touches the shoulder. I have actually glued an small strip onto the existing leather when the area around the edge started getting smooth after many years of use. Also, I found I needed to stabilize the leather but making a small hole near the tailpiece attachment and used a baggy tie, or some string, to the verical metal rod.

I have been playing without a shoulder rest since I started in the 70s. However, recently I have been paying more attention to my posture and other ergonomic factors. Two reasons - after extended sessions, my neck, back and shoulders are a little tender, and playing English Country dance tunes that require frequent shifting and are in flatted keys require better technique.

A classical violinist friend suggested that I try using a shoulder rest. That should help with the tenseness in the shoulders, neck and back. The other suggestion was to sit up and feel your back against the chair. Too often, I find myself hunched over with the neck of the fiddle pointing at the ground. Look at photos of OT fiddlers. Nearly everyone is hunched over!

Sitting up has another benefit in that you are allowing the bow to do the work and you are using gravity to your advantage. I have noticed a huge difference in my bowing just by doing this!

If the shoulder rest is fitted right and has the right height and angle, I have found it more comfortable. I am still getting accustomed to it. Yes, it is a hassle to put on! For short practice sessions, I haven't bothered to use it, but I have tried to be consistent.

Some classical violinists don't use shoulder rests. They have adjusted their grip so that they can easily shift into and from various positions. Pinkus Zuckerman does not use a shoulder rest and he does just fine.

Choose your poison.

Shoulder rests are a rather new modern invention. That said, seems more about how you use it, what purpose it serves. IIRC, one story is that it started getting adopted 50 years ago by teachers of beginners, more to make initial clumsiness, holding violin easier, and confidence, less fear/worry of dropping; can more quickly get to learning bow and fingering.

 you must be able to hold the fiddle with your chin, hands free. 

Seems to be a common belief... and certainly some seems to come from some violin teachers. However, it can also be overstated, not quite physically interpreted correctly; and be the risk/cause of a lot of later issues. And thus bit of myth of needing SR, or what used for. Of course it's possible to play without needing "look ma, no hands".

Let the fiddle rest on your hand. Only bring a small amount of tension with your chin

Yep an old school tensionless way of holding fiddle, is bit of stable balancing rather than "holding"... that the back of fiddle rests on collar bone; the neck just rests against the left hand. Blocking what gravity wants to happen, doesn't require holding. Most folks find helps to have the chin "catch" the top fiddle (usually with aid of chin rest, sometimes just a cloth/pad); offers bit of stability along other axis. and/or prevent back from slipping out. Something under the fiddle can be used, for little cushioning, help lateral wobbliness; or to help slippage. (SR can be useful in other ways)

As far as let fiddle rest on hand, need to kind of look at what the left hand is doing, or how exactly fiddle neck contacts hand/fingers. I came from guitar background (and bass, mando, banjo, uke), where instrument neck is almost always resting against hand, even as shift position, more of a gliding movement than removal. So I just adopted that. That said, similar issues with some those instrument/students. With either, one tendency, is to collapse wrist or palm; another is to grab (death grip?); or might sit deep in hand/palm or pocket of thumb/finger. Some it's bit pinched/squeezed between thumb and first finger knuckle, right idea to employ thumb to help balance/stabilize, but not so much to squeeze. Some advocate using more the tip or end of thumb, and part of a 2 or 3 point contact the neck rests against; and helps thumb lead the shifting. As these are less holding/gripping, allow for overall hand movement, vibrato, and gliding motion up/down neck.

I can't seem to get comfortable most times and I think that's the design of the particular rest I bought but, When I get the fiddle out somedays, I don't bother putting it on if I just wanna feel it for a few minutes. It actually feels more natural and it's a little louder because it's closer to my ear canal. My fiddle teacher said there is info out there explaining how the ear works with the sounds a violin creates. Unless I find a rest that better suits me, I may just go without. I've considered maybe a taller chin rest. Great topic! Thank you...

Yes lots of ways to hold fiddle, so whatever minimizes shoulder/neck tension but gives enough stability to relax the left hand is the right way.

For me these days it's no shoulder rest, but I do have a small wedge of foam (secured to the chinrest clamp) that sits under the edge to contact collarbone and prevent slipping. There is also something called a Kreddle cushion that does essentially the same thing With both of these methods the fiddle fits in the case just fine.

Make sure the shoulder rest is fitted properly. At first I just plopped it on when I got it and it just felt awkward. I got some help from a professional violinist who helped me get it set up properly. Right from the beginning after the set-up, it just feels natural.

Actually, the sound should be a little louder with the shoulder rest because their is no contact between the back plate and your body.

I enjoy feeling the vibration of the instrument against my shoulder when I play. If feel more connected to it.

I have three fiddles. One of them, the inexpensive circa 1900 German factory fiddle,weighs significantly more than my two modern German workshop fiddles. Each of them has a differently shaped chin rest...as it seems my violin stores in L.A. never carried the same shaped chin rest twice. In turn, I purchased different shoulder rests for each fiddle to compensate. I've adjusted the heck out of them to make each fiddle as comfortable as possible to hold.

In any event, all this fiddle-fitting madness has resulted in my having three fiddles that may feel slightly different under the chin, but which are all eminently comfortable. And when the various shoulder rests get a bit slick from all the sliding on and off of my shoulder, I just use some sandpaper to roughen them up. Yeah, this results in some rubber dandruff showing up on my shirt, but I see the dandruff as a badge of honor.

As a retired massage therapist I'm accustomed to watching how people use their bodies..I see long necked people reach way down to put their chin on a rest because they think that they are Supposed to do that.. No wonder they have neck problems.. Long necked people Generally would be well served with a shoulder rest. Short necked people tend to do well without a shoulder rest.. EVERYbody is different and there is no ONE REST that rules the all..!!

I don't use a shoulder rest. I started out with one, because I thought that's what you were supposed to do (along with the idea that standard was the only way to tune your fiddle).

I stopped using the shoulder rest about the same time I started playing cross-tuned. Those are "normal" for me now - doing anything different would probably cause problems.

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

As a retired massage therapist I'm accustomed to watching how people use their bodies..I see long necked people reach way down to put their chin on a rest because they think that they are Supposed to do that.. No wonder they have neck problems.. Long necked people Generally would be well served with a shoulder rest. Short necked people tend to do well without a shoulder rest.. EVERYbody is different and there is no ONE REST that rules the all..!!

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Might be some erroneous assumptions there. First is that violin/fiddle playing before SR, wasn't just short neck people. Many long neck people have and do play without SR; and played quite well. A SR, no matter neck length, doesn't prevent stress/pain/injury, even professional trained.

Might think about what is the role of a shoulder rest? When classical ergonomic folks revisited this... in the overall scheme, including how eventually transfers affects other aspects and angles; (both LH and RH, arm/wrist/fingers).... here are some insights:

The main issue with SR idea is the shoulder needs to be involved; it is a bit misnomer... holding the violin shouldn't actually involve shoulder... there should be a gap between. The natural tendency with idea of "shoulder", to help hold, tendency to engage shoulder muscles, help stabilize or push the shoulder up into  violin, (even if slightly)... there is tension, shoulder will not be in relaxed state. Better, if back of violin is resting on the collarbone; giving shoulder relaxed freedom of movement. 

A SR should not be used to elevate the fiddle to the chin, no matter how long necked. As with above, it doesn't actually get rid of that shoulder issue, no matter how adjusted/high, folks still tend to engage shoulder; perhaps in worse less relaxed way. But as well it creates other imbalances/angles with back of fiddle too high, left arm elbow, wrist angle; and including affecting bow arm.  

With violin down resting on collarbone; the gap between chin and top of fiddle, filled in with chin rest; longer necks use a taller chin rest. Even with that, might not need as tall as you think. As with previous comment; the chin doesn't need to squeeze, "push down" flex neck muscles. With just needing to catch, allows bit freedom of movement, can tilt head slightly, in relaxed way, to let it come down slightly to chin rest. 

So with that, what is role for SR? Maybe, One way, SR if used, fills in gap against chest; clavichord. Besides slippage, can also assist a bit of (perpendicular?) stability; and as fulcrum, to help keep scroll end up, take some weight off; and easier to maintain a more fixed position.

Brings up other issue... idea of violin more in a fixed position (holding). Certainly, esp for beginners, fear of dropping, but also uncomfortable  and idea if violin is shifting around uncontrollably, seem to make it more difficult; fingering, bowing control, vibrato, and of course shifting. But that might be a bit over concern, and tense/stiff. The no SR can be learned to control and be fairly stable; and  allows for quite a bit of relaxed freedom to move and adjust  the violin, scroll end, at various angles in the course of playing. That relaxed freedom is often beneficial for preventing stress, pain, injury, (Not that SR necessarily eliminates all freedom of movement, might limit it) 

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Of course; disclaimer: I mostly just play fiddle lower in chest position, not "held" or fixed at all, just resting balance; as I find overall fairly versatile and most relaxed freedom of movement.

That's quite a disclaimer.

One's neck is but half of the equation. One's left hand/wrist flexibility is another. I see some playing with the wrist against the heel of the neck. I see some that can bend their wrist past 90 degrees. I'm not Paganini. I used to run a jackhammer in high-school. The resultant anatomy is maybe I can bend my wrists back 45 degrees at most. Thanks to a shoulder and chin rest, I can play a fiddle, sort of.

Here's another: Reach across your body with a bow. Some folks are narrow. Some folks are wide. Some folks have long slender arms, some, not so much. Where that fiddle is "parked" on the opposite side matters. This, more than all else is my determining factor. Putting it all together in a repeatable manner, so I can get on with making music.

I don't use a shoulder rest and don't know many people who do. The first standalone shoulder rest was not invented until the 1950's, and I don't think were widely used till the 1970's (the Suzuki era), so people got along without them for centuries. Before that there were various gizmos attached to the chinrest, as in the attachment. Here's an article about them: violinspiration.com/the-essent...der-rest/ I noticed that some players who don't use them include Anne-Sophie Mutter, Jascha Heifetz, and Itzhak Perlman - good enough for me.
As far as posture, I try to sit up straight, although my back isn't always against the seat back.
Its really just a matter of what works best for you.

So how's it going rest-less, @ Brian Wood?

I zig-zagged back and forth for quite a while.

In the end, I found my 'jam' without a rest, but it could have gone either way I suppose.

One little insight I finally achieved for good intonation rest-less was to put the thumb fairly high, and bent, which is against what I thought would be important-- I thought I should put the thumb low to help support the fiddle since there is no shoulder rest/chin axis of support. No squeezing of course, gotta relax. This position also helps my (fairly lame) attempt at vibrato. So you might experiment with the thumb and see what works.

I am still rest-less but not yet ready to say I'm going to stay that way. Played 2 or 3 hours with a friend last night which is the longest session of playing without the shoulder rest. I noticed I did, in fact, seem to feel less need for constant physical shifting of the fiddle, which  prompted the experiment in the first place. By the end of the evening I noticed some fatigue in my left hand, and tried to make sense of that. I think I was bending my wrist more to play without a shoulder rest, but probably I could learn to compensate. I still have the sense of needing to hold the fiddle with my chin more than I probably really do, and I was constantly reminding myself to ease up. The feeling like there is less there, like the fiddle itself is less significant, is still a hard feeling to shake. I don't like the feeling that I am holding something insubstantial. Habit, I'm sure and it will probably go away.

I'll keep trying for a while longer.

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

... I still have the sense of needing to hold the fiddle with my chin more than I probably really do, and I was constantly reminding myself to ease up. The feeling like there is less there, like the fiddle itself is less significant, is still a hard feeling to shake. I don't like the feeling that I am holding something insubstantial. Habit, I'm sure and it will probably go away.

I'll keep trying for a while longer.

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Same experience I had. It took a lot of time, plus some tricks (e.g. the foam I described above) to give me a stable hold and the freedom  to loosen the chin hold.  

I'm curious about the Kreddle cushion, but can't find much online. The Kreddle page never fully loads for me (I tried 2 browsers). I haven't seen a photo good enough to give me an idea about how to copy it. Can you tell me more about how your foam pad works?

The Kreddle cushion is an attachment for the collarbone. It’s clamped onto the underside of the chinrest hardware and looks a bit like a hot dog. It’s not intended as a soft pad, more as something to help one gain a sense of the instrument being anchored on the collarbone. I’ve seen one or two “in the wild,” although most of the players I’ve seen using the Kreddle have just had the chinrest.

I’m not generally a fan of adding contraptions to instruments, but I will say that the Kreddle is designed in a way that allows for lots of adjustment with relative ease, if that’s what you seek (unlike the SAS chinrest, which is an absolute nightmare and never really fits anything well). One caveat is that it can impede a good fit in some cases with all the additional height.

kreddle.com/cushion.php?cscreen=375

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

The Kreddle cushion is an attachment for the collarbone...

kreddle.com/cushion.php?cscreen=375

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Thanks. I am interested in the cushion with my existing chin rest, as a substitute for the shoulder rest. Might give it a try.

I don't use shoulder rest and can't even stand chinrests...I always take them off in the rare event that I get a hold of a fiddle (twice...lol)...also, i cannot stand fine tuners...i take them off too. I used to just crank the tuning pegs as necessary but finally did give in and get the geared tuners that my husband installed for me...I still haven't taken the fine tuners off the viola...I guess I've never changed strings on it yet or I'd have taken them off. I will...I don't use them...just the pegs...probably just keep the original pegs on there because I don't play it very often...don't spend a lot of time tuning it.

Anyway, I like it just down to the bare necessities...strings, tuning pegs and a box for sound to come from...lol...I can't stand all the bells and whistles. But that's just me and of course I'm, well...just weird...lol.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

...I can't stand all the bells and whistles. But that's just me and of course I'm, well...just weird...lol.

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There's something to be said for simplicity.

PS You're weirdness is endearing.

I've just watched some footage of Sean Keane in which he's using the Bon Musica; in other footage he's using no shoulder rest at all. I believe I've seen footage of Tommy Peoples with the Bon Musica as well. Neither used it all the time; so maybe they were just trying it out or something ... ?

Next: "people got along without them for centuries". We don't know, though, how many gave up in despair because they couldn't manage holding the fiddle, or who damaged themselves physically trying to, or who just couldn't really enjoy playing because the awkwardness of the whole business ....