I think I need to get a British accent so people will think I'm smart and listen to me. :-)

Great little synopsis of what I often stumble around trying to explain to non-musical friends. What really stands out for me is one of the opening remarks along with that intimidating Brit accent which helps provide credibility.

"Classical music is composed, written down and reproduced exactly by generations of musicians. While Folk music is largely an aural tradition passed on by ear though generations of largely untrained musicians."

If we're so untrained, why do we know most of this stuff? Nobody knows every tune or title. Not just Old time, folk and Celtic, but most Pop, Blues, Country, Jazz, everything but classical, is mostly, Listen to Learn, then play it. I guess it seems like a magic trick from the outside.

I thought it somewhat mischaracterizes a bit of the description of traditional music and folk process. Especially the idea "untrained" musicians; and Darwinian Evolution and Chinese Whisper (or telephone) concepts are generally poor and bad analogy, as it's generally not that way. The part about playing for dancing, I also thought off the mark.  

I would somewhat question for beginners, how well really helps explains, how it's a overall different philosophy and goals than, classical music?

Perhaps there is a better word that could be used to describe a less formal training process than what would typically be used for someone wanting to play classical music in a symphony or orchestra.

I can understand - when juxtaposed with the folk process - how the term "untrained" would not necessarily be considered "inappropriate" by a classically trained musician when used use to describe the folk learning process. But I do agree that "untrained" (by definition) is incorrect. Anyone who plays an instrument - regardless of the level of accomplishment - will always involve "training" to some degree.

And I can understand why some might want to argue that the folk learning process could also be described as "formal" in some respects.

So, let me ask - if "untrained" is incorrect and inappropriate - then what is correct and appropriate?

It's easy to point to exceptions that seem to invalidate general principles, but I don't think they missed the mark by much on how we have "ended up with" different versions of tunes. It is obvious that our accessibility to music through recording devices, communication devices, and modes of transportation are contemporary issues that were not a part of the everyday life for most folks a century or so ago. Those circumstances have certainly made it possible for particular versions of tunes and styles (traditional) to be more accessible today for learning (notes and patterns). 

But even with those things being true, I think it is just as obvious that the evolution of different versions are still the result of changes that musicians will introduce - either consciously or unconsciously (for whatever reason). Even considering my own personal experiences - I recognize that truth.

There is nothing that really makes an original (earliest) version sacred, or better than later versions - only an acknowledgment that it can be pointed to as the original, and (presumably) the inspiration for all the other versions.

I did like the jamming etiquette they talked about when it comes to the different versions of tunes. 

I think the video did a fairly good job of explaining things. YMMV

This guy also claims all fiddlers hate wagon wheel. I wonder .

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Originally posted by Quincy

This guy also claims all fiddlers hate wagon wheel. I wonder .

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...a prime candidate for a new version. 

I think he did a good job of walking a debatable tightrope.

Some interesting artwork, but I had to stop when saw the frog playing the banjo. That's just preposterous - no frog would ever sink that low.
I do think there:'s something to the "telephone game" theory of aural transmission though. Here's a sad example of what can happen: youtu.be/ZHIop4mhRro

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Originally posted by Quincy

This guy also claims all fiddlers hate wagon wheel. I wonder .

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I enjoy playing WW because it's a crowd pleaser. I enjoy making folks happy.

Consider this: The songs and tunes I play are expected to be different every time it's played. In fact every break except the first is expected to be different from the last. This is improvisation. Jazz, Blues, Rock-a-Billy. Each time a song is played, it's a separate work. There's whole cities dedicated to this stuff.
I don't really have a good word to replace "trained" or " untrained." What do you call, 30,000 hours of playing music? Some times I even call it a waste of time. But what I don't do, and consider it rude, is ask every person I play with weather they can read music or not. Can you hang? Or can't you? It should be shown, at the proper time. In truth, it takes surprisingly little, just to hang, but that's my point of view.

farmerjones -- Luckily...or is it unluckily...I've never had to earn a dime off my obsession with music.  As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever actually made a dime off of making music. This, of course, hasn't made me any less neurotic or focussed on my playing. In any case, like you I can't help but get a kick out of the pitched battle I often hear between the "gotta' know how to read music" and the "reading music is the devil's playground" camps. In the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we just get along?"

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Originally posted by Quincy

This guy also claims all fiddlers hate wagon wheel. I wonder .

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No Anja, it's banjoplayers who hate it. Both because the tempo on the original is a march and that calls for a brassband with drummers....

[Rant mode]

Because of that, the banjo of the original, how do I say this politely...   Sucks big time....

But probably most of all, I rather dislike it because people generally classifying this song to be the epitome of Bluegrass.  And therefore requesting it, a bit like Duelling Banjos....

Which makes me sad, because the Bluegrass I'm playing is a happy, sparkling music (even the sad, slow songs) and nothing like this utterly boring piece...

[/Rant mode]

Wow, am I out of touch... I swear I've NEVER heard Wagon WHeel..So I listened and don't think I missed anything.. but Why is it that after fiddling for 50 years I've never heard it? ???? (rhetorical comment.. there is No explanation that will suffice )

Lee, I was just thinking the same thing. I'm not out "on the scene" much these days, but i think this was an Americana/pop hit, a style of music neither of us are much interested in.

Wagon Wheel is fine--we do it in our set, but change the words from "toke" to "Coke" mainly cause the older audience we play for. And, this is the same folks whose kids probably grow it in the hollers.

Only problem I have--the lyrics talk about a trucker heading "west from the Cumberland Gap--to Johnson City, TN". Failure. Anyone from the region knows that Johnson City is WAY East of Cumberland Gap. And, anyone scheduling freight would normally schedule it through VA and Bristol instead of over the mountains from KY on 2-lane. But, then again, maybe the trucker WAS toking.

As far as the original topic, I liked the video. It's true--classical musicians progress through a set of standard repertoire. They strive to express the music as the composer set it down. Nothing wrong with that.
And that certainly doesn't mean classically trained dudes view folk music and improvisation as inferior. They pursue it just as much as y'all do. Shouldn't get lathered up about phrases like "untrained." Every musician has been trained, somehow. The narrator means, "not classically schooled."

I didn't come up through the violin repertoire (tho I did in the piano repertoire--thanks Mom), but I play solo Bach daily in my practice time. Cause I appreciate the genius of the composition and it really polishes technique.  I didn't come from slicker-people, just country folks that love Beethoven as much as Hank Williams.  Similarly, I imagine a big-city concertmaster enjoys playing Arkansas Traveler, because he/she doesn't have to worry about which note is on down-bow!

Sorry for the wall of text above

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Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

Sorry for the wall of text above

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No worries, sometimes a good explanation takes some text...

Furthermore I'd like to mention that this perceived "cast in stone' way of playing classical in reality is subject to changes as well.

Listen to the huge difference between the earliest sound recordings and how the same music is performed today. And that change took place within a 150 years.

Go figure...

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Consider this: The songs and tunes I play are expected to be different every time it's played. In fact every break except the first is expected to be different from the last. This is improvisation. Jazz, Blues, Rock-a-Billy. Each time a song is played, it's a separate work. There's whole cities dedicated to this stuff.
I don't really have a good word to replace "trained" or " untrained." What do you call, 30,000 hours of playing music? Some times I even call it a waste of time. But what I don't do, and consider it rude, is ask every person I play with weather they can read music or not. Can you hang? Or can't you? It should be shown, at the proper time. In truth, it takes surprisingly little, just to hang, but that's my point of view.

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And, just as the folk process can be said to include "training" and even "formal", it can easily be said that there has never been a time when any song or tune has ever been played (live) by anyone "exactly" the same way twice. No matter how hard you try, and no matter how close you think you might come, you will never play it exactly the same way again. 

"What do you call, 30,000 hours of playing music?"  Depends on what you mean by "playing".  It could be called performances or it could be called practice, it could also be called listening to the radio.  But none of those things would be divorced from how "training" can be defined - they can all be classified as training at a certain level.  Training, to me, means that what I am doing now will somehow preparing me for I will do later - and that can be understood as an unending circle (training for training).

BTW... it's understandable why we would want to focus on the parts of the video that we don't agree with, and that's OK. No problem. And a drift is not unusual or unexpected.

But please understand that the real purpose my posting the link to the video was not to start a debate about the differences between classical versus folk music processes. I thought the video did a good job of discussing issues about how we (within the folk traditions) could have ended up with so many different versions of the tunes we play, and further - how we respond to them when we are playing with other "folks" that might play different version of some of the tunes we play.

Was it perfect? Nope. But I thought it made some good points. For that reason...     

I don't really have an issue with the term "untrained" because I feel it is just a comparison term used here between classical and folk...and whether it is taken in a derogatory context is up to the individual. I think some Old Time musicians today are highly trained. They have attended many week-long workshops and/or been mentored by some of the masters of the genre. They have been shown ways to use the bow and how certain tunes are played. They know what scales the tune uses and how to improvise upon the melody if they wish to do so.

Before the advent of radio and recorded music it only makes sense that tunes would have many variations. When I learn a tune now I might listen to it a hundred times. At some point, it becomes embedded, and I can hear it internally note for note. Take me back 130 years to a barn dance and I hear that same tune once...I hum it to myself all the way back to my home in the holler. I wake up the next day and try to get it back in my head. It may be three or four days of doing this before I have time to even sit down with my fiddle. By the time I work it out, it most likely isn't going to be note for note how the fiddler at the barn dance played it. Also considering that I may not be near as accomplished a fiddler as he, and I have to dumb it down a bit in sections to accommodate my skill level.

That is just a scenario that is likely responsible for some variation in tunes. I know many fiddlers of that era learned from a family member or friend of the family directly. Through this, as well as other influences, I suppose we acquired regional styles of tunes. These styles could also be considered variations if you wish. Just this morning I listened to three different sources of Brushy Run. Art Stamper's, Wilson Douglas', and Ed Haley's. Art, who learned many of his tunes from his father Hiram, is very much like Ed Haley's (both resided in eastern Kentucky). Wilson's version of the tune is that of his mentor, French Carpenter (both from central West Virginia). The variations aren't drastic, but indeed a different approach to the same tune. These variations are one of the things I truly love about old-time...even if I don't care for some variations of a certain tune. I can pick the one or two I like and go from there.

Sorry for the long-winded rant...lots of coffee this morning

Personally i know that if i have recently been listening to,or playing a certain genre it will effect the note choices, rhythm and feel of the next tune i play. Maybe this is one of the reasons different versions come about?

For example, if i have been playing or listening to swing for a while, it takes a bit of adjustment to walk into a "straight ahead" Irish session and sit down and play without swinging an Irish tune, or running off with some improv thing.... Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't....

Then i might go back to the session, and play the same tune and hear a little bit of my playing has stuck with another player. Or i may have heard a bit of their playing and it has stuck with me. It's always nice when that happens.

well that's what used to happen, now i just play how i want all the time.

I think the ideal scenario would be, to be busy enough, some youtuber's opinion wouldn't make a ripple in one's day-to-day. My frustrating slack time, intersected with Tony's post. Things have since picked up. Don't think I dont appreciate the thought provoking stuff. Later