I hear ya...you know me, I don't have to say it...I don't like fast playing. Having said that, I have made sure I CAN play fast(er) (er) because at one point I was in a little BG band, where they just fly through everything fast, and went to BG jams I found through being in the band, where they also seem to take pride or even seemed sort of competitively challenging to try to leave others behind in the dust. I didn't wanna not be able...so what I did at the time was something I heard Michael Cleveland say in an interview ...the way to play fast is to practice fast. So at the time, several years back, I would get onto http://www.fbbts.com/Tunes.html every night and control the speed...getting it up to just where I was fumbly but hanging on and doing the tunes I was expected to do in the band faster than the "normal" speed on those tracks.  Like...put it up to 115-120% above the norm...and just play like mad until I found myself hanging on pretty good.  I didn't enjoy that and eventually just had to quit both the BG band and the jams because just hearing that fast stuff, letting along playing it that way...just wrecks my nerves.  I've always played slow and I'm just a slow poke.  But I think Michael Cleveland is right...you push yourself, and it's pretty easy with that site because you control the speeds...slow it down or speed it up either one and gradually push for faster and faster...the tunes go through several times and there were times I was fumbly but by the time the tune ended I was much better...I mean, you do get faster sooner than you think if you stick with it.  As to being at some sort of comfort zone with playing "fast," I never got there and just don't like to play fast.  But maybe if you do like 'em fast, you will find yourself happily speeding up more and more. I used to do that 2 hours every night...losing sleep to do it...back in the band.  I had to...because otherwise I  wouldn't have been able to play the tunes they let me fiddle fast enough for them...it was stuff like Cherokee Shuffle, Ol Joe Clark, Angeline the Baker (which I really love slow and easy...so that one really bothered me but I learned and flew through it for their sake), Gold Rush...stuff like that.  I practiced like mad because I did love being able to play in a band and even be invited to fiddle a few in the band.  But eventually it drove me crazy...lol...so...after that I fired up my presonus and started going as slow as I like.  Anyway...gotta practice fast...I think Michael Cleveland is right.  Of course he is...lol...I mean, who could ever argue with him about anything fiddle?  But on that site you can control your speed...and if you put some time into it and push yourself beyond the comfort zone...you can start speeding up.

These days if I play along with that site I linked...I usually keep them on normal or even slow them down so I can just take 'em slow and easy going.  Except Fisher's Hornpipe...to me, they seem to call the normal slower than I like to play it ... sometimes.  Sometimes I like it slow too though.

Thanks, Peggy! I like your playing just fine too. I don't mean everything Has to be fast. I think Michael Cleveland's advice might be what I need. So often I hear 'to play fast you have to practice slow'. Obviously practicing slow only takes you so far towards fast.

I can sympathize. Nothing more humbling than thinking, "That sounds doable," then realizing the fiddler is playing way faster than it seems. Kenny Baker does it to me all the time! He's so clean and relaxed AND has a tendency to play way more single strokes than seems humanly possible.

My advice would be to regularly play the ones you can tear up to keep the sense of speed, and ease them up a tiny bit faster, until you are within the edges your comfort zone. If the wheels fall off, back out down a notch. Do this over the course of a week. The melodies that are a struggle need to be very ingrained in your head AND your fingers before they can be cleanly played at pace. There's no way around that. If you need a reminder of what you're capable of, go back to the ones you can play at a clip.

The struggle is on going for sure.

Square dance tunes I like to play at dance speed, whether or not I'm actually playing for dancers. I'm still playing for the dancers in my head.

Relaxation is key to getting speed up in my experience. This usually happens at a very gradual pace.

Efficiency of movement in the hands can also be a big factor.

Practicing slow is when to get the notes, bowing, hand efficiency, etc. all natural feeling and mistake free, so you can relax before speeding it up.

It often helps to identify what measure, part, section, is slowing you down...spend some time on just that section, until it is as, or more, comfortable than the rest of the tune. 

  Be patient &. continue to persevere. Enjoy the successes and learn to roll with the punches.

Compare & despair...Good Luck, and have fun!

 I think playing fast is the same as the fast talking auctioneer's that you hear. It is an art that needs to be practiced. imo it is not just speeding up the metronome and playing the same notes  you would play at a slower tempo. There are tricks and techniques, like making slurs sound like they are not slurs, Starting a Phrase or bar early (missing out the leading notes), using ornaments as an integral part of the melody instead of thinking of them as an note in the melody that is ornamented...etc. That is what all the cuts, rolls and triplets etc, are all about in Irish music. They are a way to separate notes on a single bow stroke.....Smoke and mirrors ....Mirrors and smoke...or in the words of Rory Mcleod  "Makes two look just like three...With his jiggery pokery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUN6oqkAqtA

What is "dance tempo?" 120 bpm?

I have tricks to play at 120, but it's mostly me not playing all the notes, so it's more like cheating.

I don't mind fast playing, but I can't do it yet.

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Originally posted by doryman

What is "dance tempo?" 120 bpm?

I have tricks to play at 120, but it's mostly me not playing all the notes, so it's more like cheating.

I don't mind fast playing, but I can't do it yet.

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In my neck of the woods it's pretty relaxed, I think. 110-120BPM max. When I hit 120 I'm flying. A "fast" speed for me on a tune like "Hell and Scissors", another tune I've been working on recently, is about 105BMM. I could push it up and play it for a dance, probably (except that it's crooked). I got a good Bill Monroe tune recently from Michael Cleveland, Northern White Clouds, that he he plays a version on youtube  at about 105BMP. I can play that at 105, pretty well. I guess I'm saying I want to be able to easily play "in general" faster than I currently can. I'd like to reset my musical metabolism to be like Kenny Baker.

I should add that in times when I had to play fast (since I'm stuck on old Hank Williams' speed of most songs...fast ain't too fast), I end up skipping a lot of notes that for me would give a tune a lot more meaning. Also...if it's shuffles and stuff a person wanted to practice...I'd be on the slow practice side...ridiculously slow practice for that stuff. Fast is different...at least in my limited, self-taught amateur experience...you play a tune fast, it's a different critter than when it's slowed down. Just my two cents...maybe not quite worth the whole two cents. Better listen to Michael Cleveland over me...lol.

As said above, relaxation is a key component, as is breathing. Holding one's breathe is a symptom of/contributor to tension. Shorter bow strokes is also a component of playing faster.

I set my drummer-in-a-phone to 120 to 130. Find a beat I like. Find a tune I like. You only have to upbow half that fast. But the most I work on is the swing or bounce. It does me no good playing square. It does no good trying to command one's body to play at any speed. It's like dancing with your knees locked straight. You gotta relax, be cool, and swing that mutha.

I've never done more than a handful of dances, so I essentially just let my instincts tell me what tempo I might use to play a tune. My tempi tend to vary. Sometimes I'll play a tune as if it were designed to gently woo a recalcitrant fair maid. Other times I might blast through it simply because the fiddle says "Faster! Faster!"

Fast playing can be an attempt to show off or it can be the result of nerves, or it can be the result of good technique and artistic sensibility. I agree that there are some pieces of music that just need to be played at a lively tempo to work well. Although sometimes a departure from the intended tempo can be interesting as a variation, much of music has a natural rhythm, either by the nature of its cultural framework or its composition style. Dance music is especially tied to a certain rhythm that makes it function. This is why many fiddle tunes can become meaningless without a proper tempo, just as a Bach partita can.

The key to building up speed in playing is ironically slow practice. While practicing passages, it’s sometimes necessary to ignore the greater context of the piece in order to polish certain technical aspects. It’s a pretty good rule of thumb that if you struggle to play a phrase slowly, it really isn’t any better when you’re playing quickly—the difficult phrase just moves by faster and the ear will sometimes ignore or make up for deficiencies.

Start by finding a tempo slow enough that you can confidently hit every single note accurately every time. If there are any mistakes at all, slow down. Once the starting tempo is established, play at that tempo several times, then increase it slightly. You can work up bit by bit to a faster tempo. Any time there is a mistake, slow down until you can play the phrase perfectly several times before speeding up again. This solidifies the technique and also builds confidence. Often problems with playing fast occur as the result of one hand getting ahead of the other in an effort to fix what feels like a lag—one hand is actually exceeding the tempo.

I also agree with the idea that being relaxed is helpful. One can play well while nervous in some cases, but it’s generally better in the long run to be relaxed; it allows you to focus on expression during performance rather than having to white-knuckle your way through a hard part.

There are different approaches toward finding relaxation while playing. Some players choose to use techniques like meditation or mindfulness to get into the “groove.” Some learn to harness stage fright in a way that allows for laser focus. Some use substances such as beta blockers or other drugs to alter the brain function. There isn’t one simple solution for everyone, but it’s worth it to find out what works for you if you haven’t already.

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Originally posted by doryman

What is "dance tempo?" 120 bpm?.

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When playing for square dancing, I watch the dancers feet and that set my tempo. Usually I watch a set of good dancers.

For reels: try rhythms. Play the reel with all the running notes in a long-short rhythm, like a dotted eighth and sixteenth (sounds like an Irish hornpipe). Then flip the rhythm and play it short-long, like the sixteenth note is first and then the dotted eighth. Get the hang of playing the reel (just the fast notes of the reel) with these two rhythms, don't worry about going fast. Then start to exaggerate the rhythm, make the long note longer and the short note shorter and faster. It's a way to practice playing every other note rapidly. I've seen it help a lot with my students.

For me , who at age 70 will likely never play faster than 120 bpm. . . . I can only play those few tunes that fast if I know the song or tune so well that I don't really have to think about what I am playing. The music just kind of flows out or me. Distractions can put the whole process into a spin so I kind of look at nothing while I play. Thinking about / listening to intonation and feeling my bow work watching my technique so I become part of the process. To achieve that I play something slowly to "warm into" a tune then speed it up as I go through it several times. Eventually .... with Kenny Baker that being years, I manage to get close.... sometimes. With my playing I have to keep to shorter bow strokes and planned slurs and keep my fingers from flying to far off the fingerboard and always watch out for over pressuring the strings .... a hangover from decades with a mandolin. Thats me, and let me take a sentence to say thanks all for your involvement in educating this fiddler. . . . . . R/

I am in favor of practicing at the tempo I want to play at. Usually that means playing with the recording I am learning from (because that recording is what had the appeal to me in the first place). Mistakes and all.

I don't buy into the idea that practicing mistakes will ingrain them so that you will have twice the work undoing it. I think the only time that is true is when you don't recognize your mistakes. I think if you recognize the mistake - your focus is going to be placed on fixing that while you practice - because you know it is not right. And every time you miss it - you know - and remind yourself...

I may not be able to play it well for a while, but I will eventually get there (my experience).

The only issues I've started to discover - if I don't play a tune for a while, I will lose the edge and tempo.

edit to add: And when I play fiddle at a jam, I will try to be sensitive to what tempo needs to be played so we can all enjoy playing together, instead of me playing "catch me if you can."

My turn.  My big problem is - there are certain tunes that "have my number". Not necessarily because they are so complicated. But for some reason I have a mental block with them. But even with a few of those, I eventually I have had a breakthrough - and then thought "why was that so hard?"

And then others that I thought were really going to be booger-bears just seemed to fall into place with little effort. Go figure.

Interesting and varied replies. For me it really seems to be a speed of thought kind of thing. By the time I am trying to increase the speed of a tune I have dealt with learning it in the first place. And when playing  if I find errors that slow me down I can detect them just as easily to stop and work them out. I don't think I have trouble syncing my hands. Competing thoughts interfere more the faster I try to play.

I'm sure it varies with everybody, but for me I'm going with the practice fast advice because I think my issue has to do with attention and division of mental activity. It's something I noticed when I was doing contra dances, that I had to work to keep my mind in sync to play fast well. I seem to have an active imagination and I often think about things to some degree while playing tunes. Just a little bit. Mostly I am thinking about the tune, but I might think how I could change something I'm doing, or notice what somebody else I'm playing with is doing. Or go off thinking about a grocery list, or what somebody said. Whatever it is in my mind works at a certain speed ratio with what I'm playing. To play faster I think I need to practice being more present with the tune. Also, I sometimes practice new tunes in my head at night before nodding off. It seems useful even though sometimes it takes over and hijacks my sleep. But I notice there is always a tempo to the music I am practicing that seems tied to the speed of my thoughts.

There is also the degree to which I pay attention musically to what I'm playing compared to times I am able to play almost without thought at all.

I'm more or less thinking this out as I write it down but, for me at least, I think there's something to it. That's what I meant when I said I needed to up my musical metabolism to match Kenny Baker. My body is capable (I believe) but I have to work on my mind. (Oh, you knew that?)

I think practicing at tempo is good, but working out difficult spots is often best done slowly to start. In the end, you should be able to practice the whole piece at tempo, but with the benefit of clean articulation.

One thing that really separates good players from bad ones is articulation. When you hear a really good player, it’s astonishing how cleanly passages will be played, especially the intricate technical parts. Bad players will just stumble through and miss things all over in an effort not to slow down.

As an analogy, you could compare it to a golf swing. One of the most common problems mediocre players have is trying to swing too fast. Many of the greatest players had swings that seemed impossibly slow but had incredible explosive power upon contact with the ball. The first thing a trainer will have you do is slow the swing down to almost nothing in order to remove all the superfluous parts and solidify the fundamentals. You have to learn how to make proper use of the weight and balance of the club, just as a violinist has to learn how to make proper use of the bow’s weight and balance. Rushing through passages and missing everything isn’t much different from someone swinging a golf club wildly and hitting the ground, topping the ball, or just hitting the air.

I am with Violin Beautiful, probably taught the same way…

But for a fast piece or fast section, start out by playing it slow, nice, accurate, in tune, good tone. Maybe with metronome ( this keeps you from subconsciously slowing down at hard passages, or leaving time gaps when shifting).

When that goes well, speed up the metronome by 10bpm or so. Practice until it goes well at that speed.

Speed up by another 10bpm… ditto. Repeat as needed…

Getting it to “fly” is a process that can take a few weeks…not days or hours.

But this slow methodical build of speed keeps your mind, body, hands relaxed so that playing fast feels easy, fluid when you finally get there. When you feel relaxed, you are able to enjoy the music and play more musically.

That’s my two cents!
( well, that’s the way I was taught as a violin student).

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

One thing that really separates good players from bad ones is articulation. When you hear a really good player, it’s astonishing how cleanly passages will be played, especially the intricate technical parts. Bad players will just stumble through and miss things all over in an effort not to slow down.
 

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This is exactly what happens to me.   And it's not just how clean the passage is.  All the dynamics are still there too. The fun stuff. 

Thing is, how do classically trained violinists know how to articulate a phrase to get it to sound crisp and clean and in tempo?
My guess is that in fast and difficult passages, the articulations, suggested bowing, and fingering are written in the score by virtuosi who have worked on the piece for maybe a century or more. Then a Player has something to get there teeth into and practice at increasing tempo's. And any departure from the written articulations, bowing, and fingering would be considered to be an innovation.

In the case of a fiddler this is definitely not the usual scenario. And i think innovation is the norm.

One thing I keep thinking...referring back to the title of the whole thread...sour grapes do make the best jelly.

No sour grapes here just awe and respect for the dedication and hard work of violinists and fiddlers, present and past.

Think back to how you played when you first stated until now....you're all miles from there.