The "Poly rhythm crap", (3 over 4, or triple over duple), works for 2 bars then catch up the slack with a couple of quavers. Or 4 bars and catch up the slack with a single quaver (in the last measure/Bar, in both instances). This gives the thing a "Triplet" feel (imo), and emphasizes a 2 or 4 bar phrase, respectively... Or you could try and extend it further...
...
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 09/22/2022 10:48:09
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenManquote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by gapbobquote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaverHere is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64
Nah, she is just doing that polyrhythm crap that Molsky promotes.
A polyrhythm is a combination of different rhythms, like playing 3 against 4 in a measure. Hargreaves isn't playing any polyrhythms in the tune. There's some syncopation, but that's not anything complicated, and it's used in the other example.
She is using the bow in a poly rhythmic way that creates the syncopation.
Again, that's not polyrhythm. Syncopation is something different, putting the accent on the offbeat and changing the flow of the rhythm but without actually changing the rhythm itself. Polyrhythm is combining different rhythms and playing them simultaneously in the space of a measure.
Here's an explanation of polyrhythm:
Re Netherton: At a contest he played in here in Missouri, where he is from, he said he started with Suzuki lessons.
quote:
Originally posted by MobobRe Netherton: At a contest he played in here in Missouri, where he is from, he said he started with Suzuki lessons.
A Roger anecdote.. His mother Robin ( member here I think) told me that once she took him to a place where he heard bluegrass fiddlers. On the way home he asked her if their fiddles were the same as his .. She replied Yes.. She said that he went into his room and basically stayed there with his fiddle till he figured it out.. (something like that.) I met Roger when he was 16 and he was already pretty accomplished at old time. He sat in our jam and basically blew us away!!
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by ChickenManquote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by gapbobquote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaverHere is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64
Nah, she is just doing that polyrhythm crap that Molsky promotes.
A polyrhythm is a combination of different rhythms, like playing 3 against 4 in a measure. Hargreaves isn't playing any polyrhythms in the tune. There's some syncopation, but that's not anything complicated, and it's used in the other example.
She is using the bow in a poly rhythmic way that creates the syncopation.
Again, that's not polyrhythm. Syncopation is something different, putting the accent on the offbeat and changing the flow of the rhythm but without actually changing the rhythm itself. Polyrhythm is combining different rhythms and playing them simultaneously in the space of a measure.
Here's an explanation of polyrhythm:
Yeah exactly , but that doesn't happen in "Reel life" (forgive the pun), unless you are brought up listening to poly rhythms and the music you are playing relies on them (Eg: Latin American, or African Music etc). What actually happens is more like i described in " Catching up the slack" and having a "triplet feel" over a given number of bars.like Doo Doo Da Da. Or Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Da.
Oh gee whiz...new bowing terms...poly rhythms? Hmmmm...Would be good if we could ask Tommy J. about this...
Listening to those recordings I hear an older fiddler playing the tune as best they can and on the other a young fiddler playing the contemporary interpretation of how old fiddling should be done. Apples and oranges. One night at the old Brandywine festvial, an early one, I realized I came to learn fiddle outside of the modern revival. The fiddling that night sounded like so many crickets in a meadow. The older fiddlers sounded like voices in the night telling an interesting story.
Edited by - RobBob on 09/22/2022 12:17:44
Yeah exactly , but that doesn't happen in "Reel life" (forgive the pun), unless you are brought up listening to poly rhythms and the music you are playing relies on them (Eg: Latin American, or African Music etc). What actually happens is more like i described in " Catching up the slack" and having a "triplet feel" over a given number of bars.like Doo Doo Da Da. Or Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Da.
Are you guys talking about a hemiola? Haven't followed the thread too closely so sorry if I missed something.
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggyOh gee whiz...new bowing terms...poly rhythms? Hmmmm...Would be good if we could ask Tommy J. about this...
Did Pogo ever use that term? New on on me..
Yes, that is the three over four mentioned, when it's taken out beyond 8 beats, and it most definitely is how the ~bowing~ creates a syncopation out of a string of eighth notes that are confined to 8 to a bar.
I'm done taking about it. This thread has taken a turn. Time to go play the fiddle. You folks continue for another couple of pages 
I don't usually disagree with my good friend Chickenman.. (really, a friend)... but this topic is going places we've not been.. Let's keep focused on bowing ( I'll TRY).. and see where we get.. A new bowing term is always welcome.. I've just gotten used to the word "pulse"..!!
Yes bowing. I guess I'm not a keen enough listener to hear what the OP is talking about that distinguishes the bowing between the two recordings and what makes one mechanical and the other not. The thread veered off in the direction of "like" vs "don't like", but that's not what interests me.
Lee I never heard Pogo every say anything about poly rhythm, and never heard anybody else. New one on me too...lol.
3 into or against 4, is what a three finged banjer roll does.
Poly-rythmn is Professor Long Hair's Tipatina.
- As you were
quote:
Originally posted by Brian WoodYeah exactly , but that doesn't happen in "Reel life" (forgive the pun), unless you are brought up listening to poly rhythms and the music you are playing relies on them (Eg: Latin American, or African Music etc). What actually happens is more like i described in " Catching up the slack" and having a "triplet feel" over a given number of bars.like Doo Doo Da Da. Or Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Da.Are you guys talking about a hemiola? Haven't followed the thread too closely so sorry if I missed something.
No. It's really syncopation, but there's a mistaken opinion that it's polyrhythm. I think the confusion arrises from the off-beat notes that are used in the tunes linked earlier. Hemiola is a different device where something in three written so that it appears to be in two briefly.
Here is a video that explains it:
No, it is really polyrhythmic, though there is a mistaken opinion that it is syncopation, though there is some of that there, of course. The polyrhythm is obvious.
I didn't listen for hemiolas.
Poly = multiple, rhythm = rhythm. Doesn't have to be confined to one measure, though that would be a curious definition. Perhaps there are academic musicians that might have fancier definitions, but I'm going back to a couple days of experience with a Molsky workshop—what she plays has the same feel—I've heard some do it, mostly the younglings, especially those with Berklee experience.
Edited by - gapbob on 09/22/2022 17:58:32
quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones3 into or against 4, is what a three finged banjer roll does.
Poly-rythmn is Professor Long Hair's Tipatina.
- As you were
A 3-finger roll is a triplet--three notes in the space of one beat. Three against four literally means two rhythms are being played at the same time. You need two players to do that or an instrument that's not part of the bowed or plucked family. There are different rolls a banjo player can use, but they're just varieties of the same thing, some with added syncopation.
Polyrhythms are not actually that obscure in popular music. They're used in some very famous rock and jazz pieces.
"You need two players to do that or an instrument that's not part of the bowed or plucked family."
Good theory, but not really true. Study some signal analysis. Everything we hear is a polyrhythm (except for a pure sine wave, but then there are always other bits blending in, but mostly a sine wave would avoid that.)
Edited by - gapbob on 09/22/2022 18:35:56
quote:
Originally posted by gapbob"You need two players to do that or an instrument that's not part of the bowed or plucked family."
Good theory, but not really true. Study some signal analysis. Everything we hear is a polyrhythm (except for a pure sine wave, but then there are always other bits blending in, but mostly a sine wave would avoid that.)
Where are you getting this idea? Nothing I've written has been theoretical. The majority of music is monorhythmic, but polyrhythm is employed in different genres, in some more than others. To generate a polyrhythm you need two distinct voices (polyphony). Gregorian chant is monophonic, but as you add voices, like in a motet or other choral arrangement involving more voices, you arrive at polyphony, and potentially polyrhythm.
Signal analysis is defined as "the ability to collect and understand sensitive information sent via various signals." The analyst uses cryptanalysis to interpret the information, something that can only be done after a careful training and use of supercomputers.
When you mention polyrhythm, are you actually trying to talk about polyphony? They're not the same!
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 09/22/2022 20:43:50
Keep discussing Polyrhthms, but...after retiring from teaching English, you'd think I could spell Polyrhythms... Is that right? Okay... I am going to backpedal a bit.
Tatiania is a good fiddler. Being such a nerd about Appalachian fiddle, her treatment of Cotton Bonnet just killed me. I wanted a nod of respect from the player to the source. And maybe she did give said respect. My bias against a certain trend in bowing caused me to be more intense than I wanted to be... I didn't have to be so harsh...or call her playing "mechanical." She is bowing with a playful passion I respect. She's got that style (whatever it's called) down.
But I do want to hear her use some of those skills to surprise me. Like throw in a killer triplet like Molsky does every now and then. Or take some surprise long bows like Kentuck or West Va. fiddler. Especially when playing music from those places... Or give me a little jiggy saw like Bingham or Lee Triplett on Pretty Little Dog .
Anyway. I had to un-bum my mood and call myself out. Thanks for the discussions...
Edited by - fiddlenerd on 09/22/2022 21:35:47
Fiddle Nerd, you just made an excellent case for why if you wanna do somethin' right...you just gotta do it yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by JonDThe thread veered off in the direction of "like" vs "don't like",
That's pretty much direction it started as.
Hmmmm.... Age dictates time on the fiddle. When I started out all I could do was make some nice tunes sound poorly done. No style, just a will to learn how, still working on that. Now twenty years down the bow road I am developing some style, something grassy I expect. So many years of listening to Kenny Baker and Bobby Hicks. Listening to old recordings is kind of like . . . . learning to add a little more, or less, of some spice I am cooking with. It is interesting to hear what has become of fiddling over the course of "recorded" history. Clayton McMichen to Mark O'Conner, they are each listed in Google as American fiddlers. And so, we are.
quote:
Originally posted by UsuallyPickinHmmmm.... Age dictates time on the fiddle. When I started out all I could do was make some nice tunes sound poorly done. No style, just a will to learn how, still working on that. Now twenty years down the bow road I am developing some style, something grassy I expect. So many years of listening to Kenny Baker and Bobby Hicks. Listening to old recordings is kind of like . . . . learning to add a little more, or less, of some spice I am cooking with. It is interesting to hear what has become of fiddling over the course of "recorded" history. Clayton McMichen to Mark O'Conner, they are each listed in Google as American fiddlers. And so, we are.
Love your insight. I am watching and listening to EVERY style of bowing. From Ray Chen, to Bruce Mulsky, Kenny Baker to Darol Anger, Dirk Powell to Michael Cleveland (Wicked Bow I might add) and all points in between.
Erock77 It is always instructive for me to be able to watch as well as listen to fiddlers too. Workshops equal some really good times. I still can't believe how M.C. holds his bow. A good example of what works, works. Sheesh.......
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