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Sep 21, 2022 - 3:07:11 PM
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DougD

USA

10964 posts since 12/2/2007

Old Scratch - "Jig bow," "jiggy bow" or "jigged the bow" means to use short, rhythmic bow strokes, as opposed to a smooth "long bow" style. At least that's what i think it means - no one ever explains exactly what they mean when they use the term.
As to the ",professional sound" - I call it "Universal World Thump music."

Sep 21, 2022 - 3:10:44 PM
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6083 posts since 9/26/2008

I brought up age just to note that the roughness of the recording is likely age related, not necessarily the indication of "authenticity" (whatever that is) as was suggested.

Sep 21, 2022 - 3:30:04 PM
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3217 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenerd

Observation...

Estill Bingham is the source .
Notice the predictable and mechanical bowing from the modern fiddler that sounds just like a bunch of other modern fiddlers.
Notice the bowing of Estill Bingham.
Two different worlds. Two different styles of music.

Modern: youtu.be/PI2w_Nsh1Mk
Source: slippery-hill.com/content/cotton-bonnet


Actually I don't think of the differences being primarily being from the bowing.... rather driven by just overall different arrangement, feel of the tune; phrasing, flow, space, ornament. 

Mechanical bowing, doesn't come to mind when hearing Tatiana; Not sure how doing what Estill plays to be perceived any less mechanical or predicable. 

I agree her style is like a lot of others her contemporaries... as is often the case, reflecting players taste and stylistic influences... esp by who you play music with, the music more often play. 

Sep 21, 2022 - 3:39:38 PM
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10717 posts since 3/19/2009

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64

Sep 21, 2022 - 3:40:28 PM
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970 posts since 3/1/2020

To me, the value in “field recordings” like what’s available in the Slippery Hill is a documentation of regional playing styles and tunes that might be lost to obscurity otherwise. The performances tend to be amateurish and not necessarily very good examples of playing the instrument. It’s more of a reference for the style, but I see absolutely no reason to emulate shortcomings like poor intonation (no, it’s not being “expressive”), inconsistent or poor rhythm, missed notes, skating bow strokes, squeaks, and shaky bowing.

Some players develop more of a mature sound as they age, but that’s certainly not always the case, and there are plenty of examples of players who lost their touch as they aged or became shadows of their younger selves.

There’s nothing wrong with there being amateur recordings of folk music, but I don’t think one should lose sight of what constitutes good playing and somehow lose the ability to evaluate playing.

Sep 21, 2022 - 4:11:11 PM
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3217 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64


Not sure what "authentic" means?

Here's the John Salyer version, that probably her version what traces back to (at least indirectly)

Kentucky Winder | Slippery-Hill

To me has a different feel. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It would be unfair criticism to just assume her goal was to sound like John Salyer (in which case she isn't nailing it). But my guess is that wasn't her goal.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/21/2022 16:15:11

Sep 21, 2022 - 4:37:22 PM
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2328 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

To me, the value in “field recordings” like what’s available in the Slippery Hill is a documentation of regional playing styles and tunes that might be lost to obscurity otherwise. The performances tend to be amateurish and not necessarily very good examples of playing the instrument. It’s more of a reference for the style, but I see absolutely no reason to emulate shortcomings like poor intonation (no, it’s not being “expressive”), inconsistent or poor rhythm, missed notes, skating bow strokes, squeaks, and shaky bowing.

Some players develop more of a mature sound as they age, but that’s certainly not always the case, and there are plenty of examples of players who lost their touch as they aged or became shadows of their younger selves.

There’s nothing wrong with there being amateur recordings of folk music, but I don’t think one should lose sight of what constitutes good playing and somehow lose the ability to evaluate playing.


You're making good points here. Sometimes original recordings are viewed as as pure examples of old time music, to be emulated in every way. Frankly, to my ear even some of the more revered players, considered touchstones of old time style, (I'm reluctant to name names for fear of seeming an apostate) shouldn't be inspirations to copy every scratch and quiver and missed intonation. We love them despite their flaws. There isn't a perfection of imperfection in my opinion when it comes to old time recordings - they are what they are. But there were old time players blessed with a special knack which we recognize and love. Their spirit and general style is what we ought to emulate.

Sep 21, 2022 - 4:41:13 PM

10717 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64


Not sure what "authentic" means?

Here's the John Salyer version, that probably her version what traces back to (at least indirectly)

Kentucky Winder | Slippery-Hill

To me has a different feel. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It would be unfair criticism to just assume her goal was to sound like John Salyer (in which case she isn't nailing it). But my guess is that wasn't her goal.


I listened to the Slippery Hill recording.. Nice.. I may be able to play that fast/version while busking, but I 'd  get thrown out if I were to try to play that way for our local jam.. THat is just another thing I like about busking.. I can do a Salyer version/speed!!  I DO play that tune Slowly at our jam, and I make it more square soze to not throw off the jam mates.. 

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 09/21/2022 16:42:16

Sep 21, 2022 - 5:55:50 PM
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Old Scratch

Canada

1087 posts since 6/22/2016

I just know what I like. A lot of the fiddling everybody else is wild about does nothing for me - and most of what I am wild about does nothing for anyone else, apparently. I've made my peace with that ... well, almost .......

Sep 21, 2022 - 6:23:58 PM
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Players Union Member

Earworm

USA

423 posts since 1/30/2018

They are both unique, they are both excellent - I have great respect for Estill Bingam's work, but this is not a either-or sort of question. The performances are also in very different settings - there are simply too many variables. Best not to divide into tribes on this question, each fiddler is unique.

Sep 21, 2022 - 7:09:48 PM

6083 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64


Not sure what "authentic" means?

Here's the John Salyer version, that probably her version what traces back to (at least indirectly)

Kentucky Winder | Slippery-Hill

To me has a different feel. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It would be unfair criticism to just assume her goal was to sound like John Salyer (in which case she isn't nailing it). But my guess is that wasn't her goal.


I listened to the Slippery Hill recording.. Nice.. I may be able to play that fast/version while busking, but I 'd  get thrown out if I were to try to play that way for our local jam.. THat is just another thing I like about busking.. I can do a Salyer version/speed!!  I DO play that tune Slowly at our jam, and I make it more square soze to not throw off the jam mates.. 


If you listen to the Salyer recording at 75% speed on Slippery Hill, you can see that is about the speed she's playing at, very close to that speed. But speed isn't the only difference. As George said, apples and oranges. 

Edited by - ChickenMan on 09/21/2022 19:10:14

Sep 21, 2022 - 7:45:38 PM
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DougD

USA

10964 posts since 12/2/2007

Old Scratch - As the oldtimers used to say "De Gustibus non Disputandum (est)." I try to remember that here at the FHO.
Chickenman - As fiddlenerd said in the OP "Two different worlds. Two different styles of music." I think that summed it up. Tatiana Hargreaves did not start where Estill Bingham did, and I see no reason she'll end up where he did either, despite what some here might think.

Edited by - DougD on 09/21/2022 19:52:25

Sep 21, 2022 - 9:15:16 PM
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970 posts since 3/1/2020

quote:
Originally posted by DougD

Tatiana Hargreaves did not start where Estill Bingham did, and I see no reason she'll end up where he did either, despite what some here might think.


I'm not sure if I understand the comment, but I'm guessing that you mean she'll have more of a career than Bingham did. In that case I'd say she's already done something most of the old-timers never could: make a living playing the violin.
 

When it comes down to what one likes, taste is a rather personal thing. But at the same time, there is such a thing as having good taste in things, and those who have it are highly regarded for it and sought out for their advice. There are entire industries built around having what is considered good taste. 

I think it's interesting to consider Hargreaves as a player of traditional fiddle music.  The comments above have generally identified her as a modern player, or one who plays in a style that differs from that of older players, although it's not clear to me where the line is drawn between old and new (Bingham's recording is from the 1980s). This seems to be at odds with Tim O'Brien's  description of her as a player "with her feet planted firmly in tradition" and with her first prize in Appalachian fiddling at Clifftop. She seems to play for dances quite a lot and performs with other players who are considered connoisseurs of traditional fiddle styles, so it seems to me that her playing is very much in keeping with the spirit of old time music.

Sep 22, 2022 - 5:31:30 AM
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538 posts since 9/1/2010

I agree that many of the prominent fiddlers today do sound alike. It may be a product of the communication age or simply that they are drawn to that sound and that is the end goal. I primarily study old-time music from West Virginia and Kentucky. In doing so, I have found it very interesting how different each fiddler sounds despite many of them being acquaintances. The one exception to a small degree would be Wilson Douglas and French Carpenter. French would come and spend weekends in Clay County and teach Wilson the tunes he played. I say "to a small degree" because I can easily tell the difference between who I am listening to, but there are many similarities in the structure of the tunes and the bowing. However, if you take Ed Haley, Lester McCumbers, Melvin Wine, Frank George, Ward Jarvis...etc..they all have a unique sound.
I have no issues with the prominent fiddlers such as Hargreaves, but I do see it as a different style. It is skilled and rhythmic but also watered down in a way.

Sep 22, 2022 - 6:43:23 AM
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Players Union Member

Earworm

USA

423 posts since 1/30/2018

Make new friends, but keep the old. One is silver and other gold.

Use the old sources for the inspiration & information they provide, but honor the living, working fiddlers who are, against all odds, trying to survive on OT Music in a modern world. There are no dividing lines here anyway, just fiddlers.

Edited by - Earworm on 09/22/2022 06:44:16

Sep 22, 2022 - 7:18:52 AM
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Mobob

USA

225 posts since 10/1/2009

It is quite interesting to me, I find this same type of discussion going on in the world of traditional Irish fiddling. Like many others, I am not sure what authentic means, in the ear of the listener I suppose. I think one big difference, a generalization, is that many of the stars of Old Time today, Hargeaves is a case in point, started with Classical violin training. She seriously pursued Texas style contest fiddling before becoming a heavy hitter in the world of Old Time. You can find videos of her at the Weiser contest on Youtube. Roger Netherton is another example, a violinist turned fiddler.

Sep 22, 2022 - 7:46:55 AM

109 posts since 3/15/2022

Kentucky Winder... No offence, but I can't stand the shuffle. The "chugging" festival style bowing grates on my ears and patience...

Sep 22, 2022 - 8:03:22 AM

10717 posts since 3/19/2009

A passing thought. How would you respond if Tatiana's version was the field recording and Estill's was played later? There probably is no right or wrong response......and we all have our opinions.

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 09/22/2022 08:07:30

Sep 22, 2022 - 8:32:21 AM

109 posts since 3/15/2022

It's not about what is authentic, or what recording came first. It's abooot what I like. I like authentic fiddling and know it when I hear it. There are living players that I do like as well who have taken the music to their own places. It is obvious that I don't like modern festival style bowing. Or whatever people want to call it. I don't see it as progressive, but degrading.

Sep 22, 2022 - 9:47:44 AM
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gapbob

USA

858 posts since 4/20/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64


Nah, she is just doing that polyrhythm crap that Molsky promotes.

Sep 22, 2022 - 9:50:49 AM
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gapbob

USA

858 posts since 4/20/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Mobob

Roger Netherton is another example, a violinist turned fiddler.


I do not believe he was a violinist.  The guy is freakishly smart.

Sep 22, 2022 - 10:01:19 AM
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gapbob

USA

858 posts since 4/20/2008

quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful
quote:
Originally posted by DougD

Tatiana Hargreaves did not start where Estill Bingham did, and I see no reason she'll end up where he did either, despite what some here might think.


I'm not sure if I understand the comment, but I'm guessing that you mean she'll have more of a career than Bingham did. In that case I'd say she's already done something most of the old-timers never could: make a living playing the violin.


Making a living playing the fiddle rarely involves playing traditional music; they have to play too fast, too fancy, too much like rock-n-roll to get the people to give them money and to stand out from the others.

Tim O'Brien is great, but I don't think of him as a great trad fiddler, so dunno if I would consider him a good person to make a pronouncement of someone who is "firmly rooted in tradition."

Contests at Clifftop have changed over the years—though they are not contest style, there has been a bit of a trend for folks who do well there to be slicker and more technical than many of the older players.

Edited by - gapbob on 09/22/2022 10:04:07

Sep 22, 2022 - 10:16:59 AM

970 posts since 3/1/2020

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64


Nah, she is just doing that polyrhythm crap that Molsky promotes.


A polyrhythm is a combination of  different rhythms, like playing 3 against 4 in a measure. Hargreaves isn't playing any polyrhythms in the tune. There's some syncopation, but that's not anything complicated, and it's used in the other example. 

Sep 22, 2022 - 10:32 AM
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6083 posts since 9/26/2008

I don't know how many old time fiddlers do or did make a living fiddling, but of the fiddlers I personally know none do. Back in the day, very few had the ~time~ to make a living at it. They were mostly busy raising a family, making a living in other ways and they certainly didn't have the luxury of a formal music education. However, I know some fiddlers, myself included, who can make extra money by way of fiddling. I make some most months. Allows me to buy the liquor I prefer and pays for some vacations.

Sep 22, 2022 - 10:36:38 AM
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6083 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful
quote:
Originally posted by gapbob
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Here is Tatiana playing Kentucky Winder.. I find this to sound quite authentic.. Do you?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjwPcuou64


Nah, she is just doing that polyrhythm crap that Molsky promotes.


A polyrhythm is a combination of  different rhythms, like playing 3 against 4 in a measure. Hargreaves isn't playing any polyrhythms in the tune. There's some syncopation, but that's not anything complicated, and it's used in the other example. 


She is using the bow in a poly rhythmic way that creates the syncopation. 

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