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Sep 21, 2022 - 8:26:05 AM
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81 posts since 3/15/2022

Observation...

Estill Bingham is the source .
Notice the predictable and mechanical bowing from the modern fiddler that sounds just like a bunch of other modern fiddlers.
Notice the bowing of Estill Bingham.
Two different worlds. Two different styles of music.

Modern: youtu.be/PI2w_Nsh1Mk
Source: slippery-hill.com/content/cotton-bonnet

Sep 21, 2022 - 8:45:05 AM

10399 posts since 3/19/2009
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It is all about the bow, for sure... Tatiana Hargreaves is a dynamic young fiddler who not only is good now, but she will get better as the years go by.

Sep 21, 2022 - 9:06:41 AM
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81 posts since 3/15/2022

If I didn't know anything about Appalachian fiddling I might agree that it is "good." It is certainly accessible and familiar. Almost generic.
If blindly listening to the music without a name, I wouldn't be able to say... "Aww that's Hargreaves!" since it sounds like so many other fiddlers who use the same bowing.

Sep 21, 2022 - 9:26:10 AM
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DougD

USA

10777 posts since 12/2/2007

"she will get better as the years go by." Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you like I guess.

Sep 21, 2022 - 10:26:50 AM

13670 posts since 9/23/2009

Well I didn't wanna prejudice my own opinion by listening to examples...as I don't think there would be enough suitable examples to use either way...but I will say that people on FHO used to say bowing is like handwriting...we all have our own. Even if you learned to write from a second-grade teacher, and you traced her writing...it won't be long until your own handwriting becomes unique to you. Of course, some would rather make themselves into a guardian of some fiddler's bowing from long ago...and that in itself is also an art form. And therefore, one must conclude that there's really no use digging up examples for any purpose other than emulating some long ago fiddler now considered too great to let go of.

Sep 21, 2022 - 10:40:49 AM
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849 posts since 3/1/2020

I don’t hear anything special in the source recording. Is it supposed to be more “authentic” because the playing is out of tune?

I haven’t really listened to Hargreaves much, but the example here sounds good to me. Rhythm is so crucial to this kind of music, as it was intended for dancing. A player whose sense of timing is unpredictable is not going to
be ideal for a dance.

I have a feeling that the players of the source recordings would have a much higher opinion of players like this than some of the posters here.

Sep 21, 2022 - 10:59:31 AM
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5947 posts since 9/26/2008

There are differences, to be sure. How old was Ms Bingham when she recorded that? Was she in her prime? I doubt it and wonder how different her playing might have been in years leading up to the recording. I like the subtle syncopation she gets with that one longer note. Pompous comments ignored,
Tatiana is fine if that is your cuppa.

Sep 21, 2022 - 11:08:38 AM
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2756 posts since 10/22/2007

I hear two people playing the same tune. Not good or bad. It's the "fiddler's fingerprint." No two alike. Guarantee I wouldn't sound like either one.

Sep 21, 2022 - 11:10:33 AM
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gapbob

USA

842 posts since 4/20/2008

quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

I don’t hear anything special in the source recording. Is it supposed to be more “authentic” because the playing is out of tune?

I haven’t really listened to Hargreaves much, but the example here sounds good to me. Rhythm is so crucial to this kind of music, as it was intended for dancing. A player whose sense of timing is unpredictable is not going to
be ideal for a dance.

I have a feeling that the players of the source recordings would have a much higher opinion of players like this than some of the posters here.


I suspect they would be appreciative of her playing, fiddlers are insecure by and large, after all.  But that doesn't mean that she plays better.

Sep 21, 2022 - 11:11:36 AM
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gapbob

USA

842 posts since 4/20/2008

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

There are differences, to be sure. How old was Ms Bingham when she recorded that? Was she in her prime? I doubt it and wonder how different her playing might have been in years leading up to the recording. I like the subtle syncopation she gets with that one longer note. Pompous comments ignored,
Tatiana is fine if that is your cuppa.


I believe Estill is a man.

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Sep 21, 2022 - 11:37:49 AM
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81 posts since 3/15/2022

Notice how much has been projected into the discussion already. Nothing was said about authenticity, age, reproduction, intonation, or right or wrong.

To my ears Bingham is the more fascinating fiddler. The timing is strong and driving from the downbeat. The intonation is expressive. The bowing complex. It makes me want to fiddle.

But there is something to be said for authenticity. Bingham is genuine. What amazes me is how little the modern fiddler sounds like Bingham. It sounds like the only thing taken from Bingham was the tune and then certain bowings used for the tune until it is not only a different style, but a different type of music.

Sep 21, 2022 - 11:39:53 AM
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10399 posts since 3/19/2009
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One really popular young fiddler told me that when he wants to play high energy he plays with younger fiddlers but when he wants more emotion in fiddling he seeks out older fiddlers.. I'm sure there is not real rule.
Estill may have played differently at other times and I've listened to a lot of Tatiana's playing and she above example is just that ... an example of how she plays, not the definitive way.
Which of us fiddlers who have played for Decades plays now the way we did ten, twenty, thirty years past?

Sep 21, 2022 - 11:49:34 AM

Quincy

Belgium

441 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenerd

Observation...

Estill Bingham is the source .
Notice the predictable and mechanical bowing from the modern fiddler that sounds just like a bunch of other modern fiddlers.
Notice the bowing of Estill Bingham.
Two different worlds. Two different styles of music.

Modern: youtu.be/PI2w_Nsh1Mk
Source: slippery-hill.com/content/cotton-bonnet


I think if they put Tatiana Hargreaves somewhere on one of the podia of our many festivals during Belgian summers, fiddle would become the new techno. And I believe the dancing woman would agree with me (she would rock in a techno disco as well hehe )

Sep 21, 2022 - 1:01:57 PM
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doryman

USA

351 posts since 2/10/2020

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

It is all about the bow, for sure... Tatiana Hargreaves is a dynamic young fiddler who not only is good now, but she will get better as the years go by.


...and she's hardly a newcomer to fiddling.  I love this video from ten years ago,  I must have watched it a hundred times!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYh0LyhTj_Q

Sep 21, 2022 - 1:02:46 PM
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Old Scratch

Canada

1011 posts since 6/22/2016
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You nailed it with: "Two different worlds. Two different styles of music."

This is a phenomenon in all fiddling traditions that I am familiar with; the more recent generations of (prominent?) fiddlers, generally speaking, do not sound much like the older players, and sound more like each other, while the older fiddlers had more distinctively personal sounds.  Furthermore, the more recent generations of fiddlers from different traditions sound more like each other as well.  The contemporary fiddlers who don't fit into that mould are the ones you never hear (except for GH Peggy!).  And then, in some cases, what we think of as the distinctive characteristics of any given style are relatively recent developments ... you can go round and round with this stuff ... !

Anyway - I liked both those recordings .....

Sep 21, 2022 - 1:03:47 PM

5947 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

There are differences, to be sure. How old was Ms Bingham when she recorded that? Was she in her prime? I doubt it and wonder how different her playing might have been in years leading up to the recording. I like the subtle syncopation she gets with that one longer note. Pompous comments ignored,
Tatiana is fine if that is your cuppa.


I believe Estill is a man.


laugh oops. I real that as Estelle. I also referred to a Carol as she today but Carol was a he. laugh

Sep 21, 2022 - 1:40:53 PM

10399 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

I don’t hear anything special in the source recording. Is it supposed to be more “authentic” because the playing is out of tune?

I haven’t really listened to Hargreaves much, but the example here sounds good to me. Rhythm is so crucial to this kind of music, as it was intended for dancing. A player whose sense of timing is unpredictable is not going to
be ideal for a dance.

I have a feeling that the players of the source recordings would have a much higher opinion of players like this than some of the posters here.


I suspect they would be appreciative of her playing, fiddlers are insecure by and large, after all.  But that doesn't mean that she plays better.

 


Great observation, Gapbob.. I couldn't agree with you more.. Personally, I'm Very insecure as a fiddler..

Sep 21, 2022 - 1:52:56 PM
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2756 posts since 10/22/2007

A little diagonal bowing. Mix in some needle scratch, so it sounds like a 78 or a cylinder, anyone could sound "authentic."

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:03 PM
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10399 posts since 3/19/2009
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quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones

A little diagonal bowing. Mix in some needle scratch, so it sounds like a 78 or a cylinder, anyone could sound "authentic."


Get old, loose hearing and Voila'!!!your playing will sound authentic..  It was only after I got hearing aids that my friends say that now I don't souns do scratchy.. I had no idea!!

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:04:31 PM
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81 posts since 3/15/2022

Authentic has nothing to do with the recording quality, but who the fiddler was and how he played. To my ears, Bingham is fiddling Hargreaves under the table even though it's not a formal, modern recording like Hargreaves'. Here's a nice write up on Bingham...

troublesomecreekguitars.com/wp...oming.pdf

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:18:46 PM
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DougD

USA

10777 posts since 12/2/2007

A little regret: In the mid 1980's I served for a couple years as project director of June Appal recordings in Whitesburg, KY. Bob Butler, who made that field recording of Estill Bingham, tried hard to get me to produce a recording of three fiddlers - Mr. Bingham, Hiram Stamper, and maybe "Snake" Chapman. Bob did take me out to visit Hiram one day, but he was really past the point where we could make a good recording. Also, what little funds we had available were already committed to other projects. Maybe I missed a chance to change the world's view of "old time" fiddling. Oh well - can't do everything, and I'd already helped make enough of a mess of contemporary "old time!"

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:34:54 PM
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81 posts since 3/15/2022

Also on authenticity... I think there is a lot of historical evidence that fiddlers see their music as unique and authentically theirs. They seldom claim to recreate someone else's music. Others may inspire them, but it's their music. There is a craft to Hargreaves bowing. But is it self-expression? Or her authentic self? I'm open to the idea, but have trouble seeing past the predictable workshop bowing licks I hear so...so often these days.

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:35:45 PM

Old Scratch

Canada

1011 posts since 6/22/2016
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In that write-up on Bingham, it says, "he had a light touch and jigged the bow" - jigged the bow? What dat mean?

Thinking about what I wrote earlier; another way of putting it: there seems to be a universal "professional sound" now, no matter what the supposed "style". Some regard that as progress; others don't.

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:36:50 PM

10399 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenerd

Also on authenticity... I think there is a lot of historical evidence that fiddlers see their music as unique and authentically theirs. They seldom claim to recreate someone else's music. Others may inspire them, but it's their music. There is a craft to Hargreaves bowing. But is it self-expression? Or her authentic self? I'm open to the idea, but have trouble seeing past the predictable workshop bowing licks I hear so...so often these days.


Let's listen again to her when she is  about 60 years old..Everybody has got to start somewhere!

Sep 21, 2022 - 2:50:44 PM

81 posts since 3/15/2022

Maybe my love for the old fiddlers makes me blind. Could be the case.

Sep 21, 2022 - 3:05:47 PM
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3109 posts since 9/13/2009

Obviously apples are better than oranges... because they're you know.... apples.

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