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Nov 29, 2021 - 4:22:04 AM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

Is this some kind of magic bowing?
How do I get this right?
I've been trying and trying , just tried out a video with Nashville shuffle in twinkle twinkle.
For twinkle twinkle it works, but dammit I want to be able to do this for other tunes as well!

Right now I'm listening to this lady:

youtube.com/watch?v=jpJeg0Gu5pE

How long does it take before you see the light?

Edited by - Quincy on 11/29/2021 04:22:54

Nov 29, 2021 - 6:36:39 AM
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135 posts since 1/21/2017

It's a good tool to have, but you don't want to over do it in any tune. It will kill any sort of phrasing that gives any particular tune it's character. I always find that the more you concentrate on doing it, the harder it is to do.

Nov 29, 2021 - 10:08:22 AM
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5849 posts since 9/26/2008

Let's hear a recording if you are comfortable posting it. We'll then have an idea of what you're doing.

My experience is that most beginners (and some not so beginners) tend to play it stiffly and with bow a strokes that are far too long. Think of it as less squarely quarter note eighth eighth and more of a ever so slightly dotted quarter with a little swing in the eighth notes. Not sure if that is a good description. I'll record something and post it here in a few minutes. 

Nov 29, 2021 - 10:34 AM
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5849 posts since 9/26/2008

Okay. I'm the #1 I show a slow shuffle (which is really not how it works if you ask me) that is "square" and without emphasis followed by three different slightly swung shuffles showing how emphasizing certain strokes can change the way it sounds/feels. (1-down up down up down up, 2 d d u u, and 3 d u u d u which sounds so weird, followed by a scale). The second example shows it square and even (ish) over two strings at a faster tempo compared to one that swings (dud udu) and employs some bow rocking to sound the two strings differently. Hope this makes sense and helps.

It is hard for me to play the square shuffle as it is so wrong. I also use short strokes in both versions but tried to use longer on the square one.


Edited by - ChickenMan on 11/29/2021 10:45:46

Nov 29, 2021 - 12:11:42 PM
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1521 posts since 7/26/2015

Tommy Jackson is probably one of the first people to come to mind when people mention this bowing lick. Check out this box set of his fiddle tunes. countysales.com/products/tommy...-71002-cd

Nov 29, 2021 - 8:13:03 PM
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2640 posts since 10/22/2007

Remember, I'm not a teacher, nor even an adequate fiddler.
What I do know, a fiddler has two magic tricks: Playing double stops and playing shuffles. Tools to be incorporated at will.

Two good little ditties that seem to be good springboards for technique, are Boil the Cabbage Down, and Rubber Dolly.

BTW, good job on those examples Billy.

Nov 29, 2021 - 8:54:19 PM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

Okay. I'm the #1 I show a slow shuffle (which is really not how it works if you ask me) that is "square" and without emphasis followed by three different slightly swung shuffles showing how emphasizing certain strokes can change the way it sounds/feels. (1-down up down up down up, 2 d d u u, and 3 d u u d u which sounds so weird, followed by a scale). The second example shows it square and even (ish) over two strings at a faster tempo compared to one that swings (dud udu) and employs some bow rocking to sound the two strings differently. Hope this makes sense and helps.

It is hard for me to play the square shuffle as it is so wrong. I also use short strokes in both versions but tried to use longer on the square one.


Thank you, this was very helpful! Can't wait to try it out after work , this is a good way to start instead of immediately trying to play a song with shuffles.

Nov 29, 2021 - 8:56:10 PM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones

Remember, I'm not a teacher, nor even an adequate fiddler.
What I do know, a fiddler has two magic tricks: Playing double stops and playing shuffles. Tools to be incorporated at will.

Two good little ditties that seem to be good springboards for technique, are Boil the Cabbage Down, and Rubber Dolly.

BTW, good job on those examples Billy.


Thank you for this advice, songs I haven't looked at before, right now I'm busy with Year of Jubilo and Pete's March. Have to check these tunes!

Nov 30, 2021 - 2:17:09 PM
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Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

Ok here we go, my best attempt after two hours of practising - seriously.

I accidentally first posted the complete file, but I only wanted to let you guys hear my last attempt,so here we go.

Please be honest lol.

I'm sorry about that heavy rubber coated metal mute, but it's after 10 pm here.


Edited by - Quincy on 11/30/2021 14:18:18

Nov 30, 2021 - 3:02:15 PM
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408 posts since 7/30/2021

Way to go Anja! Shuffling with doublestops!

To farmerjones, I'll add one third magic trick: slides

I like Billy's examples!
Hmm that second style of shuffle in Shuffle demo:2 is kinda tricky...will have to experiment on that one...
Wait was Billy saying that the "square"shuffle is wrong?
( This is not the dirt-digging hushpuppies we should be aiming for? :-)

Edited by - NCnotes on 11/30/2021 15:10:52

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Nov 30, 2021 - 3:14:50 PM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by NCnotes

Way to go Anja! Shuffling with doublestops!

 


Hey , thanks , I was wondering if this could count as shuffling!

It's hard work but what I like about this whole thing is that rhythm is so important and that I can leave the very long bow strokes for what they are. This is just much more fun. 

Nov 30, 2021 - 3:33:11 PM
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5849 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by NCnotes

I like Billy's examples!
Hmm that second style of shuffle in Shuffle demo:2 is kinda tricky...will have to experiment on that one...
Wait was Billy saying that the "square"shuffle is wrong?
( This is not the dirt-digging hushpuppies we should be aiming for? :-)


Okay I'll clear that up, the second example in demo 1 is the hushPUPpy hush PUPpy example and it is a little tricky. Square would be more like hushpuppy hushpuppy with no emphasis or swing. 

Nov 30, 2021 - 4:09:10 PM
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5849 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Quincy
quote:
Originally posted by NCnotes

Way to go Anja! Shuffling with doublestops!

 


Hey , thanks , I was wondering if this could count as shuffling!

It's hard work but what I like about this whole thing is that rhythm is so important and that I can leave the very long bow strokes for what they are. This is just much more fun. 


In this case you are shuffling but doing it in a manner similar to coryobert was cautioning against; adding a shuffle where it isn't necessary. It's not as simple as just randomly throwing in the short strokes. I suggest practicing the D scale like I demonstrated, using each step in the scale to get that groove going. Once you're doing that without thinking about it, try playing the scale like this: |: D-E  F# G a-b c# d e-d c# b a-G F# E :| where the hyphenated notes are long strokes and the emphasized notes are in bold. I'll try to post a version of one of the tunes you know using the shuffle so you can see how it works in a real tune. 

Nov 30, 2021 - 4:11:04 PM

5849 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
quote:
Originally posted by NCnotes

I like Billy's examples!
Hmm that second style of shuffle in Shuffle demo:2 is kinda tricky...will have to experiment on that one...
Wait was Billy saying that the "square"shuffle is wrong?
( This is not the dirt-digging hushpuppies we should be aiming for? :-)


Okay I'll clear that up, the second example in demo 1 is the hushPUPpy hush PUPpy example and it is a little tricky. Square would be more like hushpuppy hushpuppy with no emphasis or swing. 


Oops I misread. That second example in demo 2 is indead tricky. 

Dec 1, 2021 - 1:17:22 PM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy
quote:
Originally posted by NCnotes

Way to go Anja! Shuffling with doublestops!

 


Hey , thanks , I was wondering if this could count as shuffling!

It's hard work but what I like about this whole thing is that rhythm is so important and that I can leave the very long bow strokes for what they are. This is just much more fun. 


In this case you are shuffling but doing it in a manner similar to coryobert was cautioning against; adding a shuffle where it isn't necessary. It's not as simple as just randomly throwing in the short strokes. I suggest practicing the D scale like I demonstrated, using each step in the scale to get that groove going. Once you're doing that without thinking about it, try playing the scale like this: |: D-E  F# G a-b c# d e-d c# b a-G F# E :| where the hyphenated notes are long strokes and the emphasized notes are in bold. I'll try to post a version of one of the tunes you know using the shuffle so you can see how it works in a real tune. 


It's after 10 pm again, about to take my violin to my desk so I can read this same time, so hopefully about to find out what you mean here.

I already had a feeling I was overdoing it hehe.

Edited by - Quincy on 12/01/2021 13:17:59

Dec 1, 2021 - 2:01:48 PM
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Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

Okay. I'm the #1 I show a slow shuffle (which is really not how it works if you ask me) that is "square" and without emphasis followed by three different slightly swung shuffles showing how emphasizing certain strokes can change the way it sounds/feels. (1-down up down up down up, 2 d d u u, and 3 d u u d u which sounds so weird, followed by a scale). The second example shows it square and even (ish) over two strings at a faster tempo compared to one that swings (dud udu) and employs some bow rocking to sound the two strings differently. Hope this makes sense and helps.

It is hard for me to play the square shuffle as it is so wrong. I also use short strokes in both versions but tried to use longer on the square one.


I start to get it now I listened better to the slower version , I can hear what you are doing with your bow, my violin teacher explained to me "the bow hairs should bite the strings" like an attacking snake or something like that (she has the weirdest comparisons).

But I get it this way. It reminds me of what I was taught when playing Drunken Sailor. 

I can do this, few more tries.

Edited by - Quincy on 12/01/2021 14:02:28

Dec 1, 2021 - 3:00:58 PM
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10166 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by Quincy
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

Okay. I'm the #1 I show a slow shuffle (which is really not how it works if you ask me) that is "square" and without emphasis followed by three different slightly swung shuffles showing how emphasizing certain strokes can change the way it sounds/feels. (1-down up down up down up, 2 d d u u, and 3 d u u d u which sounds so weird, followed by a scale). The second example shows it square and even (ish) over two strings at a faster tempo compared to one that swings (dud udu) and employs some bow rocking to sound the two strings differently. Hope this makes sense and helps.

It is hard for me to play the square shuffle as it is so wrong. I also use short strokes in both versions but tried to use longer on the square one.


I start to get it now I listened better to the slower version , I can hear what you are doing with your bow, my violin teacher explained to me "the bow hairs should bite the strings" like an attacking snake or something like that (she has the weirdest comparisons).

But I get it this way. It reminds me of what I was taught when playing Drunken Sailor. 

I can do this, few more tries.


"bite the string".. I call it engaging the strings..I often watch the bows of  fiddlers and find that many just don't push down hard enough with the bow's first finger..or don't have a good relationship between the finger and the thumb.. That could be another whole topic!!!!  It is an interesting thing.. My own bowing could use work so I'm not one to talk...but here I am...Talkin'!!!

Dec 1, 2021 - 9:42:02 PM
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Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

Okay. I'm the #1 I show a slow shuffle (which is really not how it works if you ask me) that is "square" and without emphasis followed by three different slightly swung shuffles showing how emphasizing certain strokes can change the way it sounds/feels. (1-down up down up down up, 2 d d u u, and 3 d u u d u which sounds so weird, followed by a scale). The second example shows it square and even (ish) over two strings at a faster tempo compared to one that swings (dud udu) and employs some bow rocking to sound the two strings differently. Hope this makes sense and helps.

It is hard for me to play the square shuffle as it is so wrong. I also use short strokes in both versions but tried to use longer on the square one.


I start to get it now I listened better to the slower version , I can hear what you are doing with your bow, my violin teacher explained to me "the bow hairs should bite the strings" like an attacking snake or something like that (she has the weirdest comparisons).

But I get it this way. It reminds me of what I was taught when playing Drunken Sailor. 

I can do this, few more tries.


"bite the string".. I call it engaging the strings..I often watch the bows of  fiddlers and find that many just don't push down hard enough with the bow's first finger..or don't have a good relationship between the finger and the thumb.. That could be another whole topic!!!!  It is an interesting thing.. My own bowing could use work so I'm not one to talk...but here I am...Talkin'!!!


Yeah, she even made this pacman movement with her hands with it, to underline what she meant haha. I will never forget her explanations. Playing violin according to her is like painting : you have to colour your sound and sometimes you need to 'smear ' the paint, when you're playing long bow strokes. These comparisons were present during all of our classes.  When I messed up the rhythm she would say "there you drop out of the carrousel again",  because a dance song is like a carrousel, you have to feel the cadence. 

I'm not one to talk either, I'm such a beginner , but I like to talk about what I found out and what I have learned so far.

Best trick I recently learned here was the use of a word like grass hopper,hush puppy and others mentioned here. This works!

Edited by - Quincy on 12/01/2021 21:48:31

Dec 2, 2021 - 12:39:23 AM
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1521 posts since 7/26/2015

Talking about the played note values being different than the straight "quarter, eighth, eighth, etc.," and the subtleties of that, regardless of what the note values are, put feeling into it, preferably the sort of feeling that makes people want to dance and that keeps them dancing once they've started.

Dec 2, 2021 - 11:54:24 AM
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Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

Can anyone hear my grashopper yet?

I find this hard to do without lifting my index finger and using it a lot.

No wait, I  just find this hard to do!


Edited by - Quincy on 12/02/2021 11:56:37

Dec 2, 2021 - 4:02:05 PM
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5849 posts since 9/26/2008

Decent start. Try to just focus on the long SHORT short version rather all of the examples I gave, they were to show how different it sounds with different accents. Also, I suggest using a metronome to help keep it in time (stay on the carousel).

Dec 2, 2021 - 6:36:59 PM
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13318 posts since 9/23/2009
Online Now

Whoa...how'd I miss this cool conversation? I have attempted to make videos of my own bias concerning how this shuffle fits, or rather, how notes and tunes fit INTO the shuffle...how the shuffle is a groove, or can be if you use it like that...sorta like the example that used to come to my mind ... like a jump rope...two people holding the jump rope at either end and swinging it into a rhythm...then other kids jump in and out, maybe jump in again and out again, but every time they jump in or out, they have to fit into that groove or they'll stumble or stop the rope from going. LIkewise, every time you do something different than the N. Shuffle groove to take up 4 or 8 beats, you should be able to jump right back into that groove when you want to again.

But then the last time I got to thinking about this, I started thinking of the two major strokes going here...the DOWN (updown) and UP (downup), and that the two primary driving strokes are just the captalized DOWN and UP, and the ups and downs that come between are energetic catapults driving the force and the groove of the others.

The other issue is that the notes don't necessarily line up with the strokes...the notes happen, and how they meet up with the groove of the strokes is like being woven in there. The notes and the bow strokes aren't simultaneously jumping up and down...they are sometimes together, sometimes in conflict, but always true to the groove.

Anyway, I made yet another video describing my opinion (amateur back porch fiddler opinion...I'm no expert of course and there are many people with differing opinions that probably even make money or have somebody who actually wants to listen to them...lol...so take my opinion with a grain of salt) on this fascinating type of setting up a groove in fiddling.

I've been working on it for years now...and it just gets more magical to me all the time. So...whatever it's worth...here's the video I made last spring on the topic.

youtu.be/P6ABbP-cXi0

Dec 2, 2021 - 8:07:04 PM

13318 posts since 9/23/2009
Online Now

Well, please excuse me for linking to my own boring videos...lol...but I found another existing one where I keep jabberin' on endlessly about shuffling, notes, etc. I ain't no expert, maybe just pretend to be one on youtube, but many times I've gotten into email discussions with others about this topic and ended up making a youtube just because it's just so hard to parse out to talk about...most of those youtubes I did delete because it just makes me sick to watch...I watched this one just now and it just made me laugh my head off...boy am I weird...lol. Anyway, for whatever it's worth, and it might not be good talkin' or playin', just my musing aloud after conversations on email with people...spoutin' off my thoughts as if I'm some kind of know-it-all...lol...and I must warn you that this one is long. Please just skip it if you can't deal with a long-winded wanna-be amateur self-taught bungling quasi-fiddler.

youtu.be/36vrBBPk_2k

Dec 3, 2021 - 2:20:03 AM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

Here I am finally awake, but now my headset needs to be recharged, my internal laptop sound doesn't work at the moment. I love the rope jumping example. Want to watch these videos now but first my Belgian malinois needs some entertainment...While typing here she is going nuts haha. She wants to play first. This sure is a demanding dog! Very off topic I know, good thing is I got three three days-weekends in a row starting from today so I will have plenty of time to play my violin it's to say... after I tamed this maligator :p

Edited by - Quincy on 12/03/2021 02:25:14

Dec 3, 2021 - 2:58:22 AM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Whoa...how'd I miss this cool conversation? I have attempted to make videos of my own bias concerning how this shuffle fits, or rather, how notes and tunes fit INTO the shuffle...how the shuffle is a groove, or can be if you use it like that...sorta like the example that used to come to my mind ... like a jump rope...two people holding the jump rope at either end and swinging it into a rhythm...then other kids jump in and out, maybe jump in again and out again, but every time they jump in or out, they have to fit into that groove or they'll stumble or stop the rope from going. LIkewise, every time you do something different than the N. Shuffle groove to take up 4 or 8 beats, you should be able to jump right back into that groove when you want to again.

But then the last time I got to thinking about this, I started thinking of the two major strokes going here...the DOWN (updown) and UP (downup), and that the two primary driving strokes are just the captalized DOWN and UP, and the ups and downs that come between are energetic catapults driving the force and the groove of the others.

The other issue is that the notes don't necessarily line up with the strokes...the notes happen, and how they meet up with the groove of the strokes is like being woven in there. The notes and the bow strokes aren't simultaneously jumping up and down...they are sometimes together, sometimes in conflict, but always true to the groove.

Anyway, I made yet another video describing my opinion (amateur back porch fiddler opinion...I'm no expert of course and there are many people with differing opinions that probably even make money or have somebody who actually wants to listen to them...lol...so take my opinion with a grain of salt) on this fascinating type of setting up a groove in fiddling.

I've been working on it for years now...and it just gets more magical to me all the time. So...whatever it's worth...here's the video I made last spring on the topic.

youtu.be/P6ABbP-cXi0


OMG  never delete these videos again! This is so helpful  for me, thank you!

I love how you actually SHOW  the magic, very clear to follow, can't say that about a lot of others (a lot of YouTube fiddlers go way too fast for me and then I have to choose for slow motion which is weird)

I wanna try out that first little tune you show , my fingers are itching, must take out my violin NOW. I need my violin while watching this <3

Edited by - Quincy on 12/03/2021 03:07:02

Dec 3, 2021 - 3:16:14 AM

Quincy

Belgium

377 posts since 1/16/2021

Peggy, what tuning are you in, in the first video?  Never mind, funny 'I forgot what tuning I was in ' :p

Edited by - Quincy on 12/03/2021 03:28:29

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