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Nov 23, 2021 - 6:56:51 PM
12517 posts since 9/23/2009

I have six Cherokee Shuffle videos on my youtube channel...one of them has a copyright restriction. I don't understand how these get on there...why wouldn't all six have copyright restriction on them, if somebody in this world claims to own the rights to Cherokee Shuffle. Also, many of the old hymns I've done also have copyright restriction...why? I know they're old...my great grandparents sung them on the farm while they were picking strawberries or whatever...kinda surprising.

I live in constant fear that either youtube will end up fining me some horrible amount that we don't have  or else kick my channel off.  

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 11/23/2021 18:58:38

Nov 23, 2021 - 7:42:11 PM
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2468 posts since 10/22/2007

Ask them why? (I wouldn't mention the other vids) It was probably flagged by a bot.

Nov 23, 2021 - 7:55:13 PM
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5505 posts since 9/26/2008

What Steve said.

Nov 23, 2021 - 8:09:56 PM
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2576 posts since 7/12/2013

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I have six Cherokee Shuffle videos on my youtube channel...one of them has a copyright restriction. I don't understand how these get on there...why wouldn't all six have copyright restriction on them, if somebody in this world claims to own the rights to Cherokee Shuffle. Also, many of the old hymns I've done also have copyright restriction...why? I know they're old...my great grandparents sung them on the farm while they were picking strawberries or whatever...kinda surprising.

I live in constant fear that either youtube will end up fining me some horrible amount that we don't have  or else kick my channel off.  


I deal with this all the time, just dispute it and provide some semi-proof that these are actually public domain. YT isn't pefect.

Nov 23, 2021 - 9:38:59 PM

Old Scratch

Canada

843 posts since 6/22/2016

I've only had to deal with this once - I wrote youtube a note explaining that the tune in question was composed by Scott Skinner in the late 19th century. Apparently, as I recall, some minor 'Celtic' band had claimed copyright on it; anyway, I never hear any more about it.

Nov 24, 2021 - 4:15:34 AM

12517 posts since 9/23/2009

I have too many to deal with...but after their new email...I don't know, they scare me. I don't know the history of every tune I play or any of that...I mean...it would take a lot for me to try to legally defend my right to play them and publish them on youtube. I can guarantee that wherever it is they came from, they are mine once I get done messin' with them...lol...I don't know how to find out who wrote them or any of that. I just play music, mainly old music, because I've heard it, not because I know where it came from...sometimes I've heard hearsay tales about that too...but I can't say I know, can't say anything legally about who has rights to make money. I'm not interested in money, I just love music.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 11/24/2021 04:16:20

Nov 24, 2021 - 4:52:52 AM

DougD

USA

10336 posts since 12/2/2007

It used to be that both BMI and ASCAP had searchable online databases of the music they represent, but it appears they've been combined into one called "Songview," which makes it easier. repertoire.bmi.com/
In the case of "Cherokee Shuffle" the first listing is Tommy Jackson, who, if he didn't write it, was certainly the first to record it. I stated this in a recent thread about the tune, but everybody wants to think these are ancient tunes that came bubbling up out of the muck somewhere up on Wormy Branch for all to use.
I don't know anything about YouTube, (I have stuff on there but I didn't post it) but I do know that the US has some of the most restrictive copyright laws in the world.
As far as old hymns, there is a website called the Cyber Hymnal that has a lot of information about them. There may be no better organized branch of the business than religious music publishing.

Nov 24, 2021 - 5:12:43 AM
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DougD

USA

10336 posts since 12/2/2007

Here's a link to the Cyber Hymnal: hymntime.com/tch/
There's a lot of information there.

Nov 24, 2021 - 6:43:49 AM

5505 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by DougD

 I stated this in a recent thread about the tune, but everybody wants to think these are ancient tunes that came bubbling up out of the muck somewhere up on Wormy Branch for all to use.


Geez Doug, get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? smiley

I wonder why Peggy gets these given the subject matter is fiddle tunes mostly? I have a video up of a past BG band playing a contemporary song that is surely copywriten and my uke band has dozens up (all of them actually). Could it have something to with the fact that she has 1.55k subscribers and my channel and the band's channel have under 200 combined? 

Edited by - ChickenMan on 11/24/2021 06:53:34

Nov 24, 2021 - 7:12:39 AM

Baileyb

USA

94 posts since 1/24/2019

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I have too many to deal with...but after their new email...I don't know, they scare me. I don't know the history of every tune I play or any of that...I mean...it would take a lot for me to try to legally defend my right to play them and publish them on youtube. I can guarantee that wherever it is they came from, they are mine once I get done messin' with them...lol...I don't know how to find out who wrote them or any of that. I just play music, mainly old music, because I've heard it, not because I know where it came from...sometimes I've heard hearsay tales about that too...but I can't say I know, can't say anything legally about who has rights to make money. I'm not interested in money, I just love music.


Not quite! Below is what US Copyright.gov says about Derivative Works.

Derivative Works

"Copyright Protection in Derivative Works The copyright in a derivative work covers only the additions, changes, or other new material appearing for the first time in the work. Protection does not extend to any preexisting material, that is, previously published or previously registered works or works in the public domain or owned by a third party. As a result, it is not possible to extend the length of protection for a copyrighted work by creating a derivative work. A work that has fallen into the public domain, that is, a work that is no longer protected by copyright, is also an underlying “work” from which derivative authorship may be added, but the copyright in the derivative work will not extend to the public domain material, and the use of the public domain material in a derivative work will not prevent anyone else from using the same public domain work for another derivative work."

Nov 24, 2021 - 8:18:02 AM

bsed

USA

4182 posts since 6/23/2007

I choose not to worry about it and play the tunes I want to.

But let's talk repercussions. Are they going to fine you? Jail you? Take your first born?

Nov 24, 2021 - 9:25:46 AM

2576 posts since 7/12/2013

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I have too many to deal with...but after their new email...I don't know, they scare me. I don't know the history of every tune I play or any of that...I mean...it would take a lot for me to try to legally defend my right to play them and publish them on youtube. I can guarantee that wherever it is they came from, they are mine once I get done messin' with them...lol...I don't know how to find out who wrote them or any of that. I just play music, mainly old music, because I've heard it, not because I know where it came from...sometimes I've heard hearsay tales about that too...but I can't say I know, can't say anything legally about who has rights to make money. I'm not interested in money, I just love music.


You should deal with them and not let them linger. You can try and just go through and tell them it's public domain for all the songs that you think are public domain, that might clear up a bunch of them.

For the most part copyright claims on YT aren't a big deal, just means they'll monetize it and make money off of your video. If it's a copyright strike, then you need to deal with that ASAP, otherwise they can shut down your YT channel.

https://vidiq.com/blog/post/youtube-copyright-claim-copyright-strike/

Nov 24, 2021 - 9:29:44 AM

2576 posts since 7/12/2013

quote:
Originally posted by bsed

I choose not to worry about it and play the tunes I want to.

But let's talk repercussions. Are they going to fine you? Jail you? Take your first born?


Depends on the issue, for Child Online Protection violations you can actually get serious fines.

For copyright claims, Youtube will just monetize your video, no big deal

For copy strikes Youtube will shut your channel down after 3 strikes.

Nov 24, 2021 - 9:41:50 AM
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12517 posts since 9/23/2009

I just wrote up a big ol' thing here and then right in the middle of my dissertation my chrome book went dead...lol. So in a nutshell here...

Seems to me if someone says you robbed a bank, the burden of proof is on them, not you. So, given it's youtube who's saying I'm violating copyright somehow (and I'm just playing...they might be making money by advertising on my videos, but I'm not and do not want to make money with music...I just love to play and love to play all the instruments), youtube needs to provide the legal documentation that shows I am violating copyright laws. I really don't feel like trying to find out who's version of what or who's song I'm stealing and who I am hurting by playing the stuff I'm playing. I'm not into copying anybody's version of anything...if I do it, it evolves into my own style...if it's illegal for me to mess with tunes I just know by ear from either hearing others play them, sometimes from way back when I was only something like 3 years old, then they can show me in writing where I am breaking laws and I'll stop. At least I'll stop publicly...lol...I'll play 'em on the porch again...one instrument at a time.

Chickenman...I wish I had gotten all those subscribers from my music, but no...lol...they came from crochet people. Somebody who I ate lunches with at work for a few years was big into knitting and crochet...she taught me how to do all that during work lunches...then I somehow stumbled onto a method of making so-called picture blankets...i.e. blankets with a picture on them...lol...a very pixelated type image of squares...without all the usual hassles that would be involved...I think I stumbled on a good method just by being such an amateur that I could think outside the box on that. So I decided I oughta share that on youtube with how-to videos on that so other people could enjoy what I had discovered. Well...I got tons of subscribers pretty fast on those videos. Then in 2019, youtube sent out that warning that since they got sued for advertising to children...youtube creators would be hunted down and fined up to 40,000 per video if anything in their videos could possibly appeal to a child...pictures, subject matter, songs, children appearing in the videos, animals...etc., etc., etc. It was a long and ridiculous list of things you could get fined for, if the roaming robot things found those in your videos. I had tons of videos...anyway I deleted a bunch out of fear that I'd never be able to pay ONE 40,000 dollar fine, and not even a 50 dollar fine...so to make a long story short, I lost a lot of what I was deleting, including the crochet videos. I heard from a lot of crocheters that they were upset with me for removing those videos...I heard from about 3 music people that they were upset for the music ones I'd deleted. Well but anyway, that's how come I have so many subscribers...it would be really cool if music people were all the subscribers I had...lol...but it'd probably be just the 5, maybe 6 people who show some active interest in videos I put up now.

I keep planning on re-making the picture blanket crochet videos, but it's hard to do...you have to organize a lot of stuff to present it in a usable way that people will understand...get somebody to record all of that for you, because it's impossible for me to wokr with more than two hands at a time, etc. I've told the crocheters I will make new ones...but the years have raced by and I haven't gotten that done yet.

Anyway, after youtube made that little nice threat to the creators, the pandemic came along and it seems like they just forgot about all the fining they were gonna do. Lol...what a mess. I'd seen a lot of youtube people who made a living with youtubes that would be family-oriented, both kids and grownups...and they flatout quit and got a job somewhere else after that. Youtube is weird...I think they need better lawyers.

Nov 24, 2021 - 9:54:07 AM

569 posts since 3/1/2020

I agree that it seems likely that that one recording was flagged by an algorithm. It could be that that rendition had just enough similarities to someone else’s that the AI couldn’t discern.

If you can show that the source material is in the public domain, you have a good argument to present to YouTube. There are a lot of professional YouTubers who deal with issues like this all the time.

Although I think this instance is probably a computer error, I do feel that there is a push to enclose the commons that seriously threatens the ability of musicians at all levels to make music. Platforms like YouTube were established to allow a free exchange of material and allow amateurs to share in a sort of global open mic/coffeehouse. Over time the success of these platforms and the push to monetize content has actually fueled the already extant movement to monetize content in the public domain.

Nov 24, 2021 - 10:01:09 AM
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2576 posts since 7/12/2013

quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

 Platforms like YouTube were established to allow a free exchange of material and allow amateurs to share in a sort of global open mic/coffeehouse. 


Actually Youtube was established as a dating site first.

Nov 24, 2021 - 10:09:57 AM
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2576 posts since 7/12/2013

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy


Seems to me if someone says you robbed a bank, the burden of proof is on them, not you. So, given it's youtube who's saying I'm violating copyright somehow (and I'm just playing...they might be making money by advertising on my videos, but I'm not and do not want to make money with music...I just love to play and love to play all the instruments), youtube needs to provide the legal documentation that shows I am violating copyright laws. I really don't feel like trying to find out who's version of what or who's song I'm stealing and who I am hurting by playing the stuff I'm playing. 
 


That's just not how it works, you agreed to YT's terms and conditions, they control the platform, they can pretty much do anything they want with regards to you being on it.

I guess I don't understand, you always post about how important your Youtube channel is to you or that you're scared of getting fined, but your not willing to take the time to make sure you don't get fined or kicked off of it? Instead of writing a long essay, or recording 2 new videos, you could probably go through pretty easily and dispute those claims and get them cleared up. Like I said it's pretty easy to do you don't need to get all lawyer on them, just trying writing in (if you really believe it's public domain) the response that it's public domain. If you have the FIddler Fakebook by David Brody, that's a great resource for checking copyright

Edited by - fiddlinsteudel on 11/24/2021 10:10:25

Nov 24, 2021 - 10:24:16 AM

12517 posts since 9/23/2009

Well I really don't feel like researching the tunes I play...from whence they first appeared...who did which version or called it what or did it in what key, to prove that I didn't steal it to copy them or make money from somebody living or dead. And my point...why is the burden of proof on me, when it's their accusation against me? I thought it worked the other way around. You say I copyed or whatever the copyright issue is...you say I did whatever...then show me WHY you think I did. It certainly isn't money...I think music plus money ruins everything...I'm all for amateur...just love of music. If they know of some rule they claim I've violated...then rather than my grappling about researching the history and all the versions of tunes I've played and try to find out who legally owns them...they should tell me on which grounds I've committed the violation. I don't even know what it is I'm looking for or fighting against. Maybe by accident I did exactly what tommy two-toes did with an old hymn from way back in the pioneer days...you know, like a monkey does when he has eternity and a typewriter and after a few eons have passed he has managed to accidentally type out the entire works of Shakespeare...as they used to say. I don't know what I'm looking for, and most of what I see about old tunes is hearsay that was gathered from whatever person from the old days was showing the tune to whoever was collecting them. I don't feel qualified to find legal proof of copyright violation, don't want to ever make money playing music, plus I have too many videos with this problem and not enough time to do all of that.

Nov 24, 2021 - 10:28:14 AM

12517 posts since 9/23/2009

A lot of tunes, from what I know of them, I heard from tales by somebody like Jean Ritchie or Dwight Diller. People like that who have said where the tune came from, going by what old people who showed them told them. How am I supposed to know if their hearsay is true or not? Jean Ritchie said one time she played a song for people in Ireland and they immediately claimed it came from them...she was convinced it had come from Southeastern KY...not brought over, but made up by people in Hazard County or Perry County. Who ya gonna believe? Especially if I am not trying to earn income in playing them...I'm just playing them because I love to do it and I always hope to spread the love around so that other people will hopefully be inspired to dust off their instruments and enjoy playing too.

Nov 24, 2021 - 10:30:16 AM

12517 posts since 9/23/2009

Sometimes the hassles and insidious quasi-threats make me feel like just deleting the whole mess myself...lol...life is simpler playing on the porch. I'd like to share, but seems impossible in person and full of hassles online.

Nov 24, 2021 - 11:14:55 AM
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569 posts since 3/1/2020

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Sometimes the hassles and insidious quasi-threats make me feel like just deleting the whole mess myself...lol...life is simpler playing on the porch. I'd like to share, but seems impossible in person and full of hassles online.

That's by design. It isn't just a YouTube thing, though. Any time you give a public performance, the burden is on you to be sure that everything you perform is either in public domain or licensed. You never know who's in the audience, and some people actually go around looking for even the smallest violations to report to ASCAP. YouTube is a public forum, so content is policed similarly. If you use sheet music, that also needs to be very carefully monitored. Choral groups and orchestras often receive fines for photocopying parts instead of paying for multiples from the publishers. Just like in the old days of VHS tapes, you can make a copy of an original score for personal use, but you're breaking a law if you distribute copies to anyone else.

I may have already mentioned this elsewhere, but I experienced this kind of thing personally years ago after playing for a dinner club at a restaurant. A little while after one of the dinners, the restaurant received a letter suggesting that they were violating copyright laws and that they could be fined. To settle the matter, I had to submit a list of everything I'd played. Fortunately, I never played anything that wasn't public domain, so the restaurant wasn't fined and nothing more came of it. The only reason for the whole thing was that a random restaurant patron was one of those people who like to file reports.

This is also how a Girl Scout group ended up in the middle of a major lawsuit with the descendants of the women who may or may not have composed the melody that was used for "Happy Birthday" after the girls sang it in public. Thankfully, the song was finally brought back into public domain after Warner Music's $14,000,000 settlement in another legal dispute.

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 11/24/2021 11:15:58

Nov 24, 2021 - 11:47:36 AM

2576 posts since 7/12/2013

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

you say I did whatever...then show me WHY you think I did. 


Actually usually they do tell you, if you go into the claim portion there's usually a little tiny part about what part of your video is being claimed as copyright. Go into the claim, find SEE DETAILS, there should be a little down arrow that will expand the detail. They usually provide a timestamp to the section that is being claimed.

Nov 24, 2021 - 12:06:28 PM

2009 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Sometimes the hassles and insidious quasi-threats make me feel like just deleting the whole mess myself...lol...life is simpler playing on the porch. I'd like to share, but seems impossible in person and full of hassles online.

That's by design. It isn't just a YouTube thing, though. Any time you give a public performance, the burden is on you to be sure that everything you perform is either in public domain or licensed. You never know who's in the audience, and some people actually go around looking for even the smallest violations to report to ASCAP. YouTube is a public forum, so content is policed similarly. If you use sheet music, that also needs to be very carefully monitored. Choral groups and orchestras often receive fines for photocopying parts instead of paying for multiples from the publishers. Just like in the old days of VHS tapes, you can make a copy of an original score for personal use, but you're breaking a law if you distribute copies to anyone else.

I may have already mentioned this elsewhere, but I experienced this kind of thing personally years ago after playing for a dinner club at a restaurant. A little while after one of the dinners, the restaurant received a letter suggesting that they were violating copyright laws and that they could be fined. To settle the matter, I had to submit a list of everything I'd played. Fortunately, I never played anything that wasn't public domain, so the restaurant wasn't fined and nothing more came of it. The only reason for the whole thing was that a random restaurant patron was one of those people who like to file reports.

This is also how a Girl Scout group ended up in the middle of a major lawsuit with the descendants of the women who may or may not have composed the melody that was used for "Happy Birthday" after the girls sang it in public. Thankfully, the song was finally brought back into public domain after Warner Music's $14,000,000 settlement in another legal dispute.


Copyright law is good and ethical on the one hand. On the other hand it makes criminals of every folkie, and every small time bar band in the country if they don't meet impossible standards to play their modest gigs. The vast majority of musicians entertain locals in their own neighborhood for insignificant pay. The fact that they play popular tunes could even be argued that they are aiding the original copyrighters by helping make and keep their music popular, and not taking away their hard earned profit. I don't know what the answer is but I have played in small time bands and know how it goes. There is a line somewhere when you can be said to be taking someone's market share in larger concerts and recordings. I wish the law reflected that somehow. It's a shame to have to fear that you might be snitched out by someone for essentially nothing.

YouTube, that's a bigger can of worms. I am amazed at the availability of just about anything you want musically, including whole albums of the biggest new releases often.

Nov 24, 2021 - 12:27:36 PM

569 posts since 3/1/2020

quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

 Platforms like YouTube were established to allow a free exchange of material and allow amateurs to share in a sort of global open mic/coffeehouse. 


Actually Youtube was established as a dating site first.


Yes, you're right. However, the dating site concept only lasted a couple months. The domain was registered in February 2005 and the site began to be a public video sharing hub in April. The creators have said they came up with the idea after being unable to find a place to watch publicly shared videos of Janet Jackson's infamous Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction. 

Nov 24, 2021 - 12:44:13 PM

12517 posts since 9/23/2009

I did click on those details of the copyright thing and it just says it can't be monitized...see details said it was a copyright thing...I'm sorry...I'm not making sense of that.

This kinda stuff really gets on my nerves...I have no tolerance for it. I've never used sheet music and have no idea where stuff comes from...I've heard it...recently or decades in the past...I think about it...I play it. If I listen to other youtubers play it, amateur or pro...I make it a point to try not to sound like them. Probably the only one I violated that ...sounding like somebody...was Gardenia Waltz...I didn't know it long enough or well enough to do much besides what Johnny Gimble did...and I did it bad to boot, so I have thought I should delete that one anyway...lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 11/24/2021 12:51:32

Nov 24, 2021 - 2:10:14 PM

12517 posts since 9/23/2009

Well somewhere during the cranberry relish makin' for tomorrow's meal, I realized the simplest solution to this would be to delete all the videos that say anything about copyright on them. I was gonna play Cherokee Shuffle again anyway, since I love playing that one so much...so, out of the six on there, I'll delete the one that says copyright restrictions and put up another. For that matter, I could re-do the hymns at some point or other and some of the other stuff too. Stuff like Faded Love...which is just fun to fiddle...I could see it's more recent and maybe under copyright protection...but some of my Faded Loves on there don't say that, so maybe I'll have the fun of playing that one again...and see if the new one gets the same restrictions...lol. I'm not kidding ... this makes no sense...so I'm gonna delete and re-do. Some I won't re-do...like I have only one Southbound on there...maybe somebody owns that...I'll take it off. I'll just do that one on the ol' porch now and then. Then there's Libba Cotton's Oh Babe it Ain't no Lie...I think I've got three on there and one has the restriction...so...I'll just take that one off. I don't get it, but what the heck, more excuse to play the music I love again and again.

And I won't put Gardenia Waltz back up because that's just too insanely difficult...but I wanted to leave it up long enough so that the BGDaddy guy, who I learned it from, can hear it before I delete it out of existence forever.  That oughta be a porch tune, on a cold day...from now on.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 11/24/2021 14:13:12

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