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Mar 7, 2022 - 8:02:48 PM
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wilford

USA

309 posts since 6/26/2007

In a C major scale, ( C D E F G A B C), G is the fifth note of the scale, and the seventh chord built on G is the dominant seventh chord, G7.

Mar 8, 2022 - 12:24:44 AM
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2003 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by wilford

In a C major scale, ( C D E F G A B C), G is the fifth note of the scale, and the seventh chord built on G is the dominant seventh chord, G7.


That's what i thought. And the 5th note is also called the "Dominant" note so it's self explanatory really ?

Mar 11, 2022 - 4:03:24 AM
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2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
quote:
Originally posted by wilford

In a C major scale, ( C D E F G A B C), G is the fifth note of the scale, and the seventh chord built on G is the dominant seventh chord, G7.


That's what i thought. And the 5th note is also called the "Dominant" note so it's self explanatory really ?


 

And yet, a 'dominant seventh chord' can be built from any note of the chromatic scale just by spelling it thus....... 1 3 5 b7. 

Mar 11, 2022 - 8:22:17 AM

2003 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
quote:
Originally posted by wilford

In a C major scale, ( C D E F G A B C), G is the fifth note of the scale, and the seventh chord built on G is the dominant seventh chord, G7.


That's what i thought. And the 5th note is also called the "Dominant" note so it's self explanatory really ?


 

And yet, a 'dominant seventh chord' can be built from any note of the chromatic scale just by spelling it thus....... 1 3 5 b7. 


It would, or could still be the Dominant 7th, or 5th chord of one of the Major or minor keys, and would or could function as such if you wanted it too. Probably that's why it is called the Dominant chord ...Because it determines or suggests a Key, in a Major/minor Key, Western music context?

The use of it in a Blues/OT etc, context would be different i would imagine. It seems to me to  be used more as a triad (or even a dyad) with an added b7 note for "effect". Similar to using the b3 or the more unusual b5 sound. Maybe a Dorian, Mixolydian, pentatonic, Gapped scale, or modal sort of thing ? BTW the use of it in "Celtic" music is often frowned upon by some players, (Usually "Pure Drop" players) in my experience.

Mar 11, 2022 - 4:43:59 PM
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2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
quote:
Originally posted by wilford

In a C major scale, ( C D E F G A B C), G is the fifth note of the scale, and the seventh chord built on G is the dominant seventh chord, G7.


That's what i thought. And the 5th note is also called the "Dominant" note so it's self explanatory really ?


 

And yet, a 'dominant seventh chord' can be built from any note of the chromatic scale just by spelling it thus....... 1 3 5 b7. 


It would, or could still be the Dominant 7th, or 5th chord of one of the Major or minor keys, and would or could function as such if you wanted it too. Probably that's why it is called the Dominant chord ...Because it determines or suggests a Key, in a Major/minor Key, Western music context?

The use of it in a Blues/OT etc, context would be different i would imagine. It seems to me to  be used more as a triad (or even a dyad) with an added b7 note for "effect". Similar to using the b3 or the more unusual b5 sound. Maybe a Dorian, Mixolydian, pentatonic, Gapped scale, or modal sort of thing ? BTW the use of it in "Celtic" music is often frowned upon by some players, (Usually "Pure Drop" players) in my experience.


The Dominant 7th chord occurs naturally built on the 5th degree from the diatonic notes of the major scale. In some other keys/modes/scales the Dom7th chord, aka 1 3 5 b7,  is located on different degrees of the scale, eg, In the Aeolian mode/scale/key; a dom7th chord appears on the 7th degree. This is one reason the notes of that scale need to be changed to form the harmonic and the melodic minor scales so that the chord on the 5th degree will spell 1 3 5 b7, thus including the 'leading note', which wants to resolve to the tonic note.

The interval between the 3 and b7 of the Dom7th chord form the 'tri-tone' which is the very unpleasing harmony of the Augmented fourth interval, this is the interval that gives the Dom7th it's unstable character and thus requires resolution. The resolution of this interval usually occurs step-wise in contrary motion thus the common resolution to the tonic chord in the perfect cadence  (V7 - I ). However, the tri-tone can occur in many  other chords which can and does resolve to many chords, so the V7 will not always need to resolve to the tonic to form a perfect cadence. 

The use of the Dom7th on all of the diatonic primary chords in popular music essentially provides the two main 'blue notes', the flat 3 and flat 7th notes of the tonic key, which by substituting and/or adding these notes form most types of 'blues scale';  the IV7 chord includes the b3 note, and the I7 chord the b7 note. 

Mar 11, 2022 - 4:55:05 PM
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wilford

USA

309 posts since 6/26/2007

Very nice explanation, buckhenry. Thanks.

Mar 12, 2022 - 1:32:26 AM

2003 posts since 4/6/2014

Thanks for that Henry.
I think we may be talking "Tritone Subtitutions" here? as in this excellent (imo) explanation.

Tritone Substitutions


 

Mar 12, 2022 - 3:05:56 PM
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2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Thanks for that Henry.
I think we may be talking "Tritone Subtitutions" here?


Inadvertently yes, however I was reminded of once when I was analyzing a chord progression and I came across the Dom7th and to my surprise it didn't resolve as expected, and this was classical music. So, I'm just saying a Dom7th doesn't always go to a Tonic chord, or an equivalent of V7 - I progression,ie, progression of roots in fourths, thus, doesn't always determine/suggest a key. And, many altered chords contain the tri-tone and don't resolve as in the V7 - I scenario.

Mar 12, 2022 - 5:35:23 PM

306 posts since 12/2/2013

Did somebody say tri-tones?wink

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/tab/browse.asp?m=detail&v=2790

chord progression

16    7dom7    3dom7    6dom7    2dom7    5dom7    16    16

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/12/2022 17:36:34

Mar 12, 2022 - 5:55:28 PM

2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Did somebody say tri-tones?wink

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/tab/browse.asp?m=detail&v=2790

chord progression

16    7dom7    3dom7    6dom7    2dom7    5dom7    16    16


I don't understand this stuff... where, how and why is it used....?

Mar 12, 2022 - 6:11:05 PM

306 posts since 12/2/2013

Henry a video is worth a 1,000 words
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd6iBghJYqs

Mar 14, 2022 - 2:56:35 AM
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2003 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Thanks for that Henry.
I think we may be talking "Tritone Subtitutions" here?


Inadvertently yes, however I was reminded of once when I was analyzing a chord progression and I came across the Dom7th and to my surprise it didn't resolve as expected, and this was classical music. So, I'm just saying a Dom7th doesn't always go to a Tonic chord, or an equivalent of V7 - I progression,ie, progression of roots in fourths, thus, doesn't always determine/suggest a key. And, many altered chords contain the tri-tone and don't resolve as in the V7 - I scenario.


interesting could it have been a re-named German 6th? as explained here
Modulation using the German 6th Chord
Mar 14, 2022 - 2:24:55 PM

2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Thanks for that Henry.
I think we may be talking "Tritone Subtitutions" here?


Inadvertently yes, however I was reminded of once when I was analyzing a chord progression and I came across the Dom7th and to my surprise it didn't resolve as expected, and this was classical music. So, I'm just saying a Dom7th doesn't always go to a Tonic chord, or an equivalent of V7 - I progression,ie, progression of roots in fourths, thus, doesn't always determine/suggest a key. And, many altered chords contain the tri-tone and don't resolve as in the V7 - I scenario.


interesting could it have been a re-named German 6th? as explained here
Modulation using the German 6th Chord

Interesting, but no, it wasn't a chromatic chord and there wasn't any modulation......

Mar 15, 2022 - 1:57:05 AM

3163 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Maybe a way of thinking about chord "shapes" rather than chord "function" ?


Seems similar to how folks need to label modal and chords as the same thing? Or as some memory tool? If thinking that way helps you play, great.

However, another thought...  to address something in that comment thinking and function with regards to discussions of music theory.

To me, the point of music theory, is not simply about labels, terminology, "rules", scales/chords, what to name chords...doing math or instructions.  IMO the other part is perhaps more important... in that music involves structure, help understanding concepts, reasons or why, thus is involving describing what's happening which could be including function and concepts in how things work and related.

----

With that, I mostly see the idea of Dominant7 described, the way originally coined and purpose; not simply a chord (or any chord with a b7)  rather describing in context as a function of movement...  based on literal feel of the dominant (fifth) but with b7 creating tritone, makes the function of unstable V7 resolving to tonic. 

Probably that's why it is called the Dominant chord ...Because it determines or suggests a Key, in a Major/minor Key, Western music context?

I agree, though more that it reinforces idea of major/minor tonality; and separates it from predecessor modal and diatonic ideas. This V7-tonic resolve (for both major and minor keys) was one of the most important changes to new idea that came with major/minor functional harmony... what largely defines the CPP. It's use for chord movement, voice leading, line cliches, inversions, and pivotal way to modulate to other keys was pretty awesome advancement. It can be extended as Secondary dominant, predominant, or extended dominants; which still uses the same V7 to I feel but as V7 of the V7 of the I (II7/V7/I) or more as in V7/V7/V7/V7to I (or III7/IV7/II7 to I).

Related - though not a dominant7; similar function is using vii7, or related inversion is V9 (without root); as these all share same notes (B/D/F in key of C). This is often preferred if leading inward (such as to the M3; E in C chord).

-----------

The way some folks use Dominant7? Seems "dominant" to them obviously doesn't mean "fifth" nor refer to any concept about the fifth, V to tonic. As far as I can tell it doesn't really mean anything?

Mar 15, 2022 - 3:17:05 AM
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3163 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Did somebody say tri-tones?wink

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/tab/browse.asp?m=detail&v=2790

chord progression

16    7dom7    3dom7    6dom7    2dom7    5dom7    16    16


I don't understand this stuff... where, how and why is it used....?


What he refers to to as fourths; I believe it's trying to show the basic extended V7 - I chain progressions that lot's of songs use; especially in cadences. For example "Sweet Georgia Brown" VI7 to II7 to V7, to I (or V7 of V7 of V7 of I.) or "Five Foot Two" I/III7/VI7/II7/V7/I.

Mar 15, 2022 - 7:53:56 PM

2393 posts since 8/23/2008

Thanks for the explanation George. The actually PDF posted shows how each pitch of the tri-tone descends by a semi-tone through a cycle of fourths by Dom7th chords. I was confounded to how that makes music, but the video offered in explanation provided a kind of answer even though the chord progressions are quit unrelated.

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