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Dec 25, 2020 - 11:53:37 AM
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157 posts since 9/13/2007

I recently started a video series on music theory. So far there are 6 videos with more to come soon. All have PDF files of the examples. You can find these by going to

petemartin.info/
Click "vidoes" and scroll down to "Music Theory"

Dec 25, 2020 - 12:03:55 PM

2008 posts since 4/6/2014

Applied to the G major scale the dominant 7th chord is D7 not G7 ?? With the notes D F# A and C...

Dec 25, 2020 - 12:54:32 PM

2008 posts since 4/6/2014

Not trolling just trying to avoid confusion .....1:36

https://www.petemartin.info/music-theory-fiddle-mandolin-violin.html
 

Dec 25, 2020 - 9:28:53 PM
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306 posts since 12/2/2013
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quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Applied to the G major scale the dominant 7th chord is D7 not G7 ?? With the notes D F# A and C...


Although D7 is the Dominant chord in the key of G other degrees of the scale can be made into dominant 7th chords, for example She's a Woman, Wooly Bully, and a million blues songs.

Dec 26, 2020 - 12:25:05 AM

2008 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Applied to the G major scale the dominant 7th chord is D7 not G7 ?? With the notes D F# A and C...


Although D7 is the Dominant chord in the key of G other degrees of the scale can be made into dominant 7th chords, for example She's a Woman, Wooly Bully, and a million blues songs.


Any chord can be altered in various ways for various purposes. But it still remains that the Dominant 7th chord in the key of G Major is D7 Not G7, which is the Dominant 7th chord of C Major.

Dec 26, 2020 - 7:52:12 AM

2008 posts since 4/6/2014

Actually thinking about it, you cannot build a "Dominant 7th" chord for the key of G Major from any old note of the G Major scale.

It has to be built from the Dominant, or 5th degree of the scale (D) to be the Dominant 7th chord for the key of G Major.

If you build it on any other note it is the Dominant 7th chord for a different key, and would be used in a different way. Eg: For the b7 sound in a blues progression, a passing chord in a circle of 5ths progression, or to modulate to a different key etc. Instead of performing its function as a perfect cadence (V7-I or D7 G) in the key of G Major.

The Dominant 7th chord of the Major scale in its 1st inversion, is a triad built on the "Dominant", (5th or V) note of the Major scale, with its 7th note (taken diatonically from the key), added, to make it a 4 note chord.

Dec 26, 2020 - 5:28:44 PM
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Petimar

USA

157 posts since 9/13/2007

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Applied to the G major scale the dominant 7th chord is D7 not G7 ?? With the notes D F# A and C...


You are correct to say the D7 chord is built from the key of G major.

However what the video you were looking at is covering is just how to construct a dominant seventh chord, not what key the chord is located in.  That will come in a different video. 

A chord is named and built using the number system (i.e. 1 3 5 b7) of the major scale of the chord name.   Here I was building the G7 chord, so I used the number system based on the G major scale.  The G7 chord is the 1 3 5 b7 of the G major scale. 

To build a D7 chord (D F# A C) you use 1 3 5 b7 of the D MAJOR scale.  Even though a D7 chord occurs in the key of G, you define its construction from the key of D.

In video #6 I look at the 3 note chords in a key (triads).  Like I said above, a future video will cover 4 note chords in a key.

I also like to tell folks that theory only puts terms to sounds we hear, lets us communicate about those sounds.  If you know the sound, the terms make sense.  If you don't know the sounds, all the studying of terms make no sense.  

Also, always go by the sound YOU like to hear, not the "theory behind it being correct"!!! 

Pete, I hope this answers your question. 

I am starting this video series at the very beginning and going along slowly so beginners hopefully start to understand some of these terms and sounds.  I appreciate any feedback on whether I am succeeding or not!  From your posts Pete, sounds like you are definitely not a theory beginner.  

Pete

Edited by - Petimar on 12/26/2020 17:40:33

Jan 7, 2021 - 12:16:16 PM

2008 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by Petimar
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Applied to the G major scale the dominant 7th chord is D7 not G7 ?? With the notes D F# A and C...


You are correct to say the D7 chord is built from the key of G major.

However what the video you were looking at is covering is just how to construct a dominant seventh chord, not what key the chord is located in.  That will come in a different video. 

A chord is named and built using the number system (i.e. 1 3 5 b7) of the major scale of the chord name.   Here I was building the G7 chord, so I used the number system based on the G major scale.  The G7 chord is the 1 3 5 b7 of the G major scale. 

To build a D7 chord (D F# A C) you use 1 3 5 b7 of the D MAJOR scale.  Even though a D7 chord occurs in the key of G, you define its construction from the key of D.

In video #6 I look at the 3 note chords in a key (triads).  Like I said above, a future video will cover 4 note chords in a key.

I also like to tell folks that theory only puts terms to sounds we hear, lets us communicate about those sounds.  If you know the sound, the terms make sense.  If you don't know the sounds, all the studying of terms make no sense.  

Also, always go by the sound YOU like to hear, not the "theory behind it being correct"!!! 

Pete, I hope this answers your question. 

I am starting this video series at the very beginning and going along slowly so beginners hopefully start to understand some of these terms and sounds.  I appreciate any feedback on whether I am succeeding or not!  From your posts Pete, sounds like you are definitely not a theory beginner.  

Pete


Hi Pete , as a self taught musician i have waded through various views on music theory, and have found over the decades that small differences in interpretation can send students off on different trajectories. which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as the student realizes this fact.

I am always appreciative and grateful for the work and thought that goes into projects like yours, and as always "one size doesn't fit all". And i am sure that others will benefit from your work as i have.

Cheers Pete.

Mar 8, 2021 - 1:59:24 PM
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Petimar

USA

157 posts since 9/13/2007

Two new videos about the V and V (dominant) 7 chords.

#7 V implies V7
#8 V7 resolves to I

Find these at petemartin.info/videos.html
Scroll down to "Music Theory for Fiddle Mandolin and Violin"

Apr 5, 2021 - 3:56:07 PM

Petimar

USA

157 posts since 9/13/2007

Video #9 looks at what people means when they say the "Circle Of Fifths"

Find these at petemartin.info/videos.html
Scroll down to "Music Theory for Fiddle Mandolin and Violin"

Edited by - Petimar on 04/05/2021 15:56:27

Aug 27, 2021 - 8:44:09 AM

Petimar

USA

157 posts since 9/13/2007

Video #10 looks at the most common chords we encounter in tunes and songs.

Find these at petemartin.info/videos.html
Scroll down to "Music Theory for Fiddle Mandolin and Violin"

Dec 24, 2021 - 5:21:18 PM

Petimar

USA

157 posts since 9/13/2007

Video #11 looks at the modes of the major scale.
Video #12 looks at intervals
Video #13 looks at three note chords - triads


Find these at PeteMartin.info/videos.html
Scroll down to "Music Theory for Fiddle Mandolin and Violin"

Mar 5, 2022 - 3:19:43 AM

4 posts since 3/5/2022

that's cool you started these series!
I've already watched 3 of your videos and I liked them

Mar 5, 2022 - 12:48:59 PM
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wilford

USA

309 posts since 6/26/2007

"To build a D7 chord (D F# A C) you use 1 3 5 b7 of the D MAJOR scale. Even though a D7 chord occurs in the key of G, you define its construction from the key of D."

I respectfully disagree that one has to change keys to arrive at the properly identified V7 chord. I maintain that the chord is actually constructed in the same key signature of G Major.

In the key of G Major, the dominant 7 chord is built from the 5th tone of the G scale. A root position V7 is built from the root 5th tone D and then uses the F# tone which is a Major third above the root D, followed by a Minor third interval using the A note and then another Minor third interval using the C (natural) note. In other words, a root V7 is built from the 5th tone of the scale followed by a Major 3rd and two Minor thirds.

A root position Dominant 7 in the key of G is: D F# A C; 1st inversion is: F# A C D; 2nd inversion: A C D F#

If one changed key to D in order to build a Dominant 7 chord in G, it would require naturalizing the C# that occurs as the leading tone in a D Major scale.

Edited by - wilford on 03/05/2022 12:49:52

Mar 5, 2022 - 1:31:27 PM
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2291 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by wilford

"To build a D7 chord (D F# A C) you use 1 3 5 b7 of the D MAJOR scale. Even though a D7 chord occurs in the key of G, you define its construction from the key of D."

I respectfully disagree that one has to change keys to arrive at the properly identified V7 chord. I maintain that the chord is actually constructed in the same key signature of G Major.

In the key of G Major, the dominant 7 chord is built from the 5th tone of the G scale. A root position V7 is built from the root 5th tone D and then uses the F# tone which is a Major third above the root D, followed by a Minor third interval using the A note and then another Minor third interval using the C (natural) note. In other words, a root V7 is built from the 5th tone of the scale followed by a Major 3rd and two Minor thirds.

A root position Dominant 7 in the key of G is: D F# A C; 1st inversion is: F# A C D; 2nd inversion: A C D F#

If one changed key to D in order to build a Dominant 7 chord in G, it would require naturalizing the C# that occurs as the leading tone in a D Major scale.


Though technically that is true, most people probably want the simpler route, that for any chord, no matter what key the tune is in, you can build a Dominant 7 from the chord itself. It's easier to know first that D is the 5 chord in G, and then find Dominant 7 of D from there.  I think most people here want simple rules of thumb. Rather than thinking of it as changing keys to do this, just think of it as finding the Dominant 7 (or any other interval) of a given major chord from itself.

But maybe that's just how my pea brain works.

Mar 5, 2022 - 5:01:48 PM
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2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by wilford



If one changed key to D in order to build a Dominant 7 chord in G, it would require naturalizing the C# that occurs as the leading tone in a D Major scale.


The major scale structure (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ) is the quickest way to determine the notes of a chord, any chord, no matter on which degree of the chromatic scale it is located. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7  instantly provides all the possible notes for any chord. The chord nomenclature indicates the notes required for a particular chord and any alterations or extensions, if required; thus, V7 indicates the chord is built on the 5th degree and is a major triad with a flat 7th extension; take 1 3 5 from the major scale and flatten the 7th; 1 3 5 b7 = Dom7. In the major key this chord occurs naturally on the 5th degree without any alterations to the home scale notes. However, if a II7 is required, construct the notes of the major scale built from the 2nd degree of the home key, in the key of G this would be A; (  A B C# D E F# G# ) Apply the chord formula; 1 3 5 b7 = A C# E G. The nomenclature includes all the intervals required for the chord quality, all is needed to know is the major scale from any note rather than deciphering the intervals. 

Mar 6, 2022 - 6:00:49 PM
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306 posts since 12/2/2013
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quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Applied to the G major scale the dominant 7th chord is D7 not G7 ?? With the notes D F# A and C...


Although D7 is the Dominant chord in the key of G other degrees of the scale can be made into dominant 7th chords, for example She's a Woman, Wooly Bully, and a million blues songs.


Any chord can be altered in various ways for various purposes. But it still remains that the Dominant 7th chord in the key of G Major is D7 Not G7, which is the Dominant 7th chord of C Major.


A dominant 7th chord is simply found by adding a pitch that is a whole step lower than the root. This can be done to a II III V VI ii iii vi without adding an interval that is out of the scale.

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/06/2022 18:01:29

Mar 6, 2022 - 10:11:46 PM
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3163 posts since 9/13/2009

Describing it as changing keys every time change chord? Or based on the root of a chord? To me it seems unnecessary. G major is G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. with the tonic, tonal center (key) as note G and internal interval relation. The notes to form diatonic chords are in that set... and as relation to that key (ii, vi, IV, V7...).

Don't see how helps to describe D7 chord as if only exists in the key of D? Would that now be a I7?

Perhaps might be overall more confusing. (and more difficult to communicate); diminishes or conflates the concept of what "key of G major" meaningless? Why even use term "key" if just describing via chord root?
 

Mar 6, 2022 - 10:30:01 PM
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3163 posts since 9/13/2009

I am pretty sure Dominant literally refers to the fifth (V). A naming system, tonic, supertonic, mediant, sub-dominant, dominant, sub-mediant, leading tone.

Simply adding a a pitch that is a whole step lower than the root? AFAIK, ii7, iii7, vi7 vii7 are not usually considered or referred to as Dominant 7. (nor VII7 or IV7)

III7, VI7, II7 are often referred to as secondary dominants, (also altering the third to major)... as that alteration serves a function "like" a temporary dominant, in wanting to resolve to a chord a fourth above.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/06/2022 22:38:14

Mar 7, 2022 - 12:34:36 AM

2008 posts since 4/6/2014

Maybe a way of thinking about chord "shapes" rather than chord "function" ?

I find that for fiddle, (which has no frets or visual references), That thinking in "mode shapes or patterns" (rather than in chord shapes), and using my ears at the same time, helps me find my way around the fingerboard. So In practical use to me, a G7 chord would be the 1357 of the mixolydian mode, (shape or pattern). Same as a ii chord would be the 1357 of the Dorian mode, or a iii chord would be the 1357 of the Phrygian mode....etc. These modes only exist in their respective Major "Keys" or their relative Natural minor "Keys".

So to me, and in practical use, if say the 7th note of a mode (shape or pattern) is altered, all of the other surrounding modes change with it. Which to me constitutes a change of "Key" however briefly. This helps me in visualizing the fingerboard at that point in time. And in finding chord/mode substitutions, melodic phrases, improvising, arranging, double stops, shifting, analysing, and practical LH fingerings etc, without any visual references.

Mar 7, 2022 - 9:46:55 AM
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2291 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Simply adding a a pitch that is a whole step lower than the root? AFAIK, ii7, iii7, vi7 vii7 are not usually considered or referred to as Dominant 7. (nor VII7 or IV7)


For practical purposes I think many players think of a dominant 7th note as a whole step below the root, the same as thinking of the relative minor chord as being a 3rd below the root instead of a 6th above. Any interval can be inverted and often for musical sense we consider intervals below instead of up. Inverted intervals always add up to 9.

I'm afraid this discussion, including my part of it, probably adds confusion to some readers since what we're doing is explaining how the concept works for us, individually. Some of these methods are confusing to me, too. It's a jumble of numbers but worth ironing out.

Mar 7, 2022 - 11:35:21 AM
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2008 posts since 4/6/2014

What is the Dominant 7th chord or V7 chord in the "Key" of C Major ?

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 03/07/2022 11:38:14

Mar 7, 2022 - 2:57:07 PM

2393 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
explaining how the concept works for us, 

And it's interesting how all the concepts arrive at the same answer. 

However, the concept of using the major scale structure ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ) to determine the notes of a chord has no relation to any key, so the original key does not change. It's just a group of notes arranged in a certain pitch order that we all know well, and can be superimposed onto any note of the chromatic scale for quick and efficient reference. Thus, bII7b9b13 is the quickest way to arrive at the notes rather than communicate in this way.... "Play the note of the flat second degree of the home key, then add the note a tone below that note, then add a minor third above that note, then add a perfect fifth above that note"............  I hope I got that right. When all I need do is find the tonic and play a major scale with flat  2,6 and 7th notes. 

Mar 7, 2022 - 4:27:27 PM

2291 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

What is the Dominant 7th chord or V7 chord in the "Key" of C Major ?


This isn't a trick question is it? The Dominant 7th chord to C Major is C7, as the Dominant 7th chord is is any chord with a flatted 7th on top (technically on top, but can be a 2nd underneath). The V7 chord in the key of C is G7. The V chord often has a flat 7th interval in it acting as a leading tone back to the I chord, but there are other reasons to use it. A good reason to use it is it sounds bluesy. Bluesy rock songs like Beatles "She's A Woman" use it on all the changes. It's gritty that way.

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