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Sep 4, 2020 - 4:53:35 AM

2653 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

12/8 vs 6/8
When I ecperienced it, the guitar player did this to the beat: X - x X - x X - x X - x instead of X x x X x x X x xX x x. It "works," but as I said before, it doesn't feel right. Does that make sense? It is essentially the beat/pulse to "Rainy Day Woman #12 and 35."


Nope, doesn't make sense with the x's and backup. I think the difference is about  jigs vs blues; a lot more to it than just the meter and x's.

What you describe your guitar player doing is pretty much what I played in St. Anne's Jig.  The alternating bass quarter/eighth type back up is pretty common for jigs. (guitar or piano) esp in NE and Midwest; and contra dance. Essentially it's the same old Boom chuck, with alternating bass feel of 2; but has syncopated chucks. (obvious my St. Anne's is not blues).

What you might be referring to in Rainy Day Woman is NOT a jig. More based on Blues, typical back up. Like 4/4, but with underlying triple (so written as 12/8). 1 and 3 still have down beat feel; 2 and 4  have (often accented) up beat feel. As a bit more of lead in to the beat gives.  1 - a2 - a3 - a4
Bass line might go - Dump aDOOP aDeep aDAH;
or sometimes as more Boom aChuck aBum aChuck? 
 

Of course perhaps my jig backup doesn't feel right (too much like RDW)? Fair enough, that boom chuck it is not always good back-up for "double jigs" in Irish Trad circles or sessiuns -  Can make it sound like, well contra dancey, squared up and bouncy; or marchy; less fluid, flowing forward or driving. (similar boom chuck for Trad reels).

Sep 4, 2020 - 5:32:50 AM

2653 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

i make up my own stories about where a tune might have come from, and which path(s) it might have taken to get to me.
 


Reality can sure get in the way of made up stories. laugh (although if can make up a really good story, than  that is entertaining in itself)

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle


imo none of these "traditional" tunes where "composed" they have "evolved" over centuries or even millennia,


I think inherent to folk music just looks at composition in a different way than classical, or formal education might perceive it  (as well as copyright)

The tunes were and are all composed. From an original concept, but then recomposed, reworked, with the "creative" input of another. Some refer to this as communal composition; that from the origin, many others have contributed along the way.

But even more is just how most of the type of composition works...  they are viewed as melodic ideas, have a frame, theme or outline; leave lots of room for freedom for individuals to adapt or change; borrow form other things; while keeping the basics, general concept present. A bit like stories, or jokes, or recipes.

The process isn't limited to old, unknown, that passed thru many. Even those that have valid  and known original composer, written yesterday... folks still can and will take that melodic idea and turn it into something a bit different to their own liking and creativity. In turn, hearing their version, might get passed to another who also has freedom to make it different.

Related to some of this discussion...  folks have taken melodic idea from one background (even popular song), and changed them to fit their own regional or personal style; including changing meter and rhythm.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/04/2020 05:43:33

Sep 4, 2020 - 7:46:02 AM

5005 posts since 9/26/2008

Seems you got the gist from the "Rainy Day.." example.
Yeah, I know it's not a jig. I told you it worked but felt wrong, as in didn't have the proper jig feel. You asked for an explanation/example of how that 12/8 business could used and I gave one. Your backup seems to follow the same principle but feels better because you use runs to move the backup along in a jig manner. The guitar player I encountered only did the boom - chuck and it did not feel right playing against it. I see how it is similar to a contra dance piano comp. 

Sep 4, 2020 - 2:04:19 PM
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1738 posts since 12/11/2008

I always try to let the thousand proverbial flowers bloom. Stylistic detail is less important to me than whether the tune played with conviction. Does it make sense on the ear?

Dec 13, 2020 - 10:27:50 AM

25 posts since 11/20/2020

I think the world of Kevin Burke. His album “If the Cap Fits” was my Rosetta Stone to Irish fiddling. And I’ve gone to two in person workshops with him and think he’s also a hell of a nice guy. But whether he admits it, the dude has a definite bowing style, and in my opinion it drives his rhythm.

Dec 18, 2020 - 7:55:29 AM
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4289 posts since 6/23/2007

Originally, except for Airs, weren't all Irish tunes designed for a specific type of dancing ? If so, the rhythm would have to accommodate the dancers.

Dec 18, 2020 - 10:10:39 AM

1466 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by Dick Hauser

Originally, except for Airs, weren't all Irish tunes designed for a specific type of dancing ? If so, the rhythm would have to accommodate the dancers.


Exactly, or a listening audience....

I think of them as instrumental lilting, to accommodate whichever context they are performed in. Be it Dancing, accompanying a story teller, a fiddle competition or just music to keep the bar open....Etc...It's up to the performer to decide whether they are appropriate or not.

Edit ...And build the Craic

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 12/18/2020 10:13:54

Dec 26, 2020 - 7:37:40 AM

BR5-49

USA

208 posts since 1/3/2019

Irish fiddling, like USA fiddling is an individualist art. There may be regional similarities like language and dialect, but that's all been said before on this site.

One difference between Irish fiddlers and American fiddlers culturally I've noticed is that Irish trad musicians are more social and receptive of their traditions and don't claim authority or attempt to define things too finely where it causes arguments.

One of the last times I ventured into an "old time" setting the person I planned to share a tune with walked off upset because they felt they were "right" about a tune. The last time I spent with some world class Irish fiddlers from Ireland we talked and laughed for two hours over musical discussion before even sharing a tune.

Dec 26, 2020 - 8:08:16 AM
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639 posts since 8/10/2017

Wow, I have never experienced people throwing a hissy fit about being "right" about a tune. Almost everybody I know who plays old time music will play a tune and say after "...or something like that." Or maybe they'll say something like "did I put the B part of some other tune in there?"

Dec 26, 2020 - 11:16:36 AM
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1466 posts since 4/6/2014

I think the person who starts a tune has the right version of it, whether it goes with my version or not ( if i think i even have the the tune in the fist place). If i think i can play along i will, if not i'll listen, maybe noodle quietly, if there is enough background noise, and try to pick up any nice bits in their version. Or i'll just stick to my own version and play it at another time and place. The main thing with me is to do my best to support the player or singer who starts the thing off. If that means just sitting listening and applauding at the end.. so be it.

Dec 27, 2020 - 11:34:05 AM
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BR5-49

USA

208 posts since 1/3/2019

It's not just being "right" about a tune... it could be the bowing, the the history, even the clothing.

Dec 27, 2020 - 12:54 PM

5005 posts since 9/26/2008

And if it comes down to clothing, I am out of there.

Something about the actual tune and likely how someone played it is really all it takes for me to want to play it. If I am playing an old time tune, it will sound like me playing OT. If I am playing an Irish tune, it will still sound like me playing Irish, likely with a Donegal lean as that is what I like to listen to, but not like me playing OT because I try to approach each genre with the appropriate accent.
To me the accent is different, especially if you listen to the various crossover tunes played in the styles, you can readily identify the players of each genre.

Dec 31, 2020 - 2:26:18 PM

4289 posts since 6/23/2007

I understand that originally most types of Irish tunes were written for dancing. The music fit the movements the dancers would do. Jigs, reels, hornpipes, polkas were all done differently. In his book "The Complete Irish Fiddler" Cooper teaches how to play each of the different types of tunes. Maybe that is what Burke meant.

Dec 31, 2020 - 3:52:51 PM
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1738 posts since 12/11/2008

I probably mentioned this in another post, several months ago, but whatever tune in the O'Neill's I tackle, I don't really care if I'm trying to emulate an accepted style. For me, the tunes themselves are beautiful and evocative enough to simply stand on their own as pieces of music. Be it joy, sadness, humor, playfulness, anger, wooing, romance, patriotic fervor or just getting people to dance, I try to convey what I believe is inherent within the notes.

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