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Aug 29, 2020 - 1:43:38 PM

DougD

USA

9976 posts since 12/2/2007
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BTW - In that little book there is musical notation for a song which I believe was later recorded by Uncle Dave Macon as "Tossing the Baby so High."

Aug 29, 2020 - 3:48:44 PM

8933 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

That might be a fun other topic... maybe TuneWeaver wants to start; coming up with a list of tunes that exist in both genres.


Actually I think that I DID once start that topic...years ago.. but You are welcome to start it again..laugh

Aug 29, 2020 - 4:26 PM

5016 posts since 9/26/2008

When I was a kid (beginning of the 70s) my family called it "mountain music." My dad's dad was full Irish, played a squeeze box and sang a bunch of what my memory recalls as Irish songs and sea shanties. They didn't call those songs anything other than "one of dad's songs" as in, "Let's play one of dad's songs."

Aug 29, 2020 - 5:14:50 PM

8933 posts since 3/19/2009

Hmmm.. Yep, Jigs were probably common in OT music at one time.. How is it that we seem to have narrowed it down?

Aug 29, 2020 - 7:28:10 PM

5016 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Hmmm.. Yep, Jigs were probably common in OT music at one time.. How is it that we seem to have narrowed it down?


Most guitar players, used to the straight forward drive of popular music, struggle with jig rhythms. I think the same tung happened with the revivalists. There were plenty of 6/8 tunes in the old dead folks' repertoires, they just didn't get picked up. 

Aug 30, 2020 - 12:18 AM

1472 posts since 4/6/2014

Once a tune or rhythm has been "Converted" to 12/8 time, the same tune or rhythm can be used for many dances. As 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,and 6 this would mean that a player with a limited repertoire could use a few tunes in many situations... Could this be what happened to 6/8 Jigs in America, and explain the rarity of the typically English Triple Hornpipe (3/2 time or 3 groups of 4 1/8th or 1/16th notes) almost everywhere else?

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/30/2020 00:28:54

Aug 30, 2020 - 2:42:15 AM

2653 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Once a tune or rhythm has been "Converted" to 12/8 time, the same tune or rhythm can be used for many dances. As 12 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,and 6 this would mean that a player with a limited repertoire could use a few tunes in many situations... Could this be what happened to 6/8 Jigs in America, and explain the rarity of the typically English Triple Hornpipe (3/2 time or 3 groups of 4 1/8th or 1/16th notes) almost everywhere else?


Converted? Uh... no it doesn't work that way.

Aug 30, 2020 - 4:02:54 AM

1472 posts since 4/6/2014

odd? ive just been playing a reel as a jig, and i often just emphasize the first beat of a jig and split it into 2 groups of 6 notes wonder why it wouldn't work for you?

i just put the emphasis where i want...

Aug 30, 2020 - 7:09:28 AM

2653 posts since 9/13/2009

Go ahead and post it... might be interesting. 

My guess is you are perhaps just using dynamic accent; is likely just creating a syncopated polyrhythmic, like a juba, not actual jig. 

Why it wouldn't work...  has to do with how compositions work, have a melody, phases which fit in a sense of meter(s); conversely, the melodic and harmonic aspects of a composition help define sense of meter. (not just dynamic accent). The math would be problematic for phrasing. Weak harmonic notes would get shifted in strong meter spots; and would have problems with cadences as well.  A reel's number of eighth notes in phrases, and parts typically follows 16/32/64/ form - which are not divisible by 3.

Yes, you could just beat out 3's; but would be likely difficult to play for most folks... and/or might not make any musical sense to listeners. By chance a few, might create some other sort of interesting crooked tune; but you likely have to change things, to solve a lot compositional problems for it to make musical sense.

Lot of work... and an easier solution might be just learn some good jigs... there are tons of them.

----------------

That said, I have taken some reels and made them as jigs... but not as you suggest; basically it's following the same melodic idea, contour, beat and and phrasing. (involves altering or deleting, notes, or changing their values. Doesn't always work for every reel)

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/30/2020 07:22:59

Aug 30, 2020 - 10:16:58 AM
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1472 posts since 4/6/2014

@ alaskafiddler, i think all the suggestions you and i have stated are ways in which folk tunes change and evolve, either intentionally or otherwise. And folk from all around the world with their different ways of hearing and looking at things have had an influence on most folk tunes. Might even be a way of explaining some crooked tunes? Some of them are definitely the same tune but with a slightly different take on them, and a different name. And others are relatives, close or distant (more than 1 makeover), with different time signatures and names.

That said, i think that rhythm drives note choices, ornaments and cadences rather than the other way around...Well it does for me...at this piont in time...

Aug 30, 2020 - 1:02:25 PM

5016 posts since 9/26/2008

I've played with a guitar player who did the 12/8 sort of thing with a jig. It "worked" in a time keeping sort of way, but felt weird to play against.

Aug 30, 2020 - 1:50:45 PM

8933 posts since 3/19/2009

The most frustrating differences I've seen were the 3 tune, three time through, habit that Irish musicians have.. and that of course that can frustrate them when playing OT music.. They are ready to change tune after 3 times, and we have 30 more times in mind..!!!

Aug 31, 2020 - 6:12:43 AM

DougD

USA

9976 posts since 12/2/2007
Online Now

Lee, those are just conventions in contemporary jams, which are modern inventions. They are not intrinsic musical differences.
Of the two, I think I would find the endless banging in an old time jam the most annoying.

Aug 31, 2020 - 7:54:06 AM

5016 posts since 9/26/2008

30 X 30 seconds (approximate one time through a tune) = 15 minutes.

For the record, that hasn't ever happened in an OT jam I've participated in. Dances, yes, OT jams, no.

Aug 31, 2020 - 8:38:32 AM
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gapbob

USA

736 posts since 4/20/2008

Once, at Breaking up Thanksgiving, I went to put my gear into a room in the dorm, and they were playing a tune, came back after roaming the camp, they were still playing it.

Aug 31, 2020 - 8:43:36 AM

8933 posts since 3/19/2009

I've been in some LOOONG hypnotic jams.. where I didn't want the tune to end..The musicians work hard to get into a groove while also using variations.. Anything but boring to the Musicians... .As for the audience, well, maybe not too enjoyable..
I have two really good 15 minute audios of Brian Slattery playing..!!! simply amazing.

Sure, if OT is endless banging, then Irish is endless embellishments  laugh  but, of course I don't really believe that Either  banging what I'd call OT music or endless embellishments what I'd call Irish music.. Both deserve more respect than that.

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/31/2020 08:46:51

Aug 31, 2020 - 4:10:30 PM

172 posts since 1/31/2013

DougD : thanks for the history of Crockett's Honeymoon. I'd never heard of the Crockett Family Mountaineers.

Aug 31, 2020 - 10:49:39 PM

2653 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle

@ alaskafiddler, i think all the suggestions you and i have stated are ways in which folk tunes change and evolve, either intentionally or otherwise. And folk from all around the world with their different ways of hearing and looking at things have had an influence on most folk tunes. Might even be a way of explaining some crooked tunes? Some of them are definitely the same tune but with a slightly different take on them, and a different name. And others are relatives, close or distant (more than 1 makeover), with different time signatures and names.

That said, i think that rhythm drives note choices, ornaments and cadences rather than the other way around...Well it does for me...at this piont in time...


I really still can't quite understand your suggestions; comments/description of converting to 12/8, or how that would work? Can't imagine folks doing that and having much success.  Certainly not how it would ever for dances?  Nor, can't understand the hypothesis connection you are trying to make about tune evolving, explaining crooked tunes; nor what happened to jigs?  Doesn't seem probable to me.

The last comment about some "other way around" is particularly confusing  about what you are indicating? Rather seems to reinforce what I stated; and explanation of why I thought your concept wouldn't work.

Just curious if you have a recording, example that demonstrates?

Sep 1, 2020 - 2:21:02 AM

1472 posts since 4/6/2014

@alaskafiddler,
Without constructing a thesis on how i personally think 12/8 African Bell Patterns, and poly rhythms may have influenced Western Jigs & Reels , (it's probably already been done anyhow). And how i personally think different cultures not used to western music notation might interpret time signatures, i don't think i could explain my thinking to you.

ps: "the other way round", being melody or note choices driving the rhythm.

Sep 2, 2020 - 11:04:55 PM
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2653 posts since 9/13/2009

Not sure why it can't be explained; or demonstrated? A sound sample might be worth a lot of explanation.

My question was to your process of turning a reel to a jig... to which I assumed the basic interpretation of jig and reel in discussion of fiddle tunes are pretty straight forward interpretation. (you perhaps are not?)

Reels follow simple meter; feel of 2; with division of 2 (and 4). TIK-e&a Tok-e&a. Jig follows a compound meter; feel of 2; with division of 3. TIK-a-ti Tok-a-ti.

*"other way around" ?  Still not sure what or who that refers to? For fiddle tunes compositions, IMO melody and rhythm work together (as I mentioned previous); both in helping define structure, sense of beat, meter and phrasing. Again, an example would be great.

Reels can be reworked into jigs. Attached an example of the concept. (we use similar for contra medleys). Different process than or conversion you describe. Apologies for the sound quality.


Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/02/2020 23:14:37

Sep 3, 2020 - 8:29:36 AM
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gapbob

USA

736 posts since 4/20/2008

I do not believe that there is any significant African influence on Irish music. Double jigs (12/8) have been around for a long time, nor do I believe that there is much in the Midwest.  If there are influences of that type, they would be primarily be in slave states and would have a difficult time in returning to Ireland.  The Irish music here is still basically the same as that in Ireland.

Much of the fiddle tunes that are played have come from English sources and dancing masters.  This is a quite complex topic and beyond a thread of this sort.

Perhaps modern fiddle styles, which are somewhat derived from rock and roll, blues, syncopation, etc.,  have those influences, but not in the old traditional styles.

Edited by - gapbob on 09/03/2020 08:33:56

Sep 3, 2020 - 8:44:12 AM

5016 posts since 9/26/2008

12/8 vs 6/8
When I ecperienced it, the guitar player did this to the beat: X - x X - x X - x X - x instead of X x x X x x X x xX x x. It "works," but as I said before, it doesn't feel right. Does that make sense? It is essentially the beat/pulse to "Rainy Day Woman #12 and 35."

Sep 3, 2020 - 9:12:35 AM

8933 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Not sure why it can't be explained; or demonstrated? A sound sample might be worth a lot of explanation.

My question was to your process of turning a reel to a jig... to which I assumed the basic interpretation of jig and reel in discussion of fiddle tunes are pretty straight forward interpretation. (you perhaps are not?)

Reels follow simple meter; feel of 2; with division of 2 (and 4). TIK-e&a Tok-e&a. Jig follows a compound meter; feel of 2; with division of 3. TIK-a-ti Tok-a-ti.

*"other way around" ?  Still not sure what or who that refers to? For fiddle tunes compositions, IMO melody and rhythm work together (as I mentioned previous); both in helping define structure, sense of beat, meter and phrasing. Again, an example would be great.

Reels can be reworked into jigs. Attached an example of the concept. (we use similar for contra medleys). Different process than or conversion you describe. Apologies for the sound quality.


That St Anne's Reel sounds great.. Soldier's Joy also makes a great Jig..!!

Sep 3, 2020 - 10:00:39 AM
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1472 posts since 4/6/2014

Yep just "beyond a thread of this sort" as gapbob says....For every theory there will be an equally valid theory. i make up my own stories about where a tune might have come from, and which path(s) it might have taken to get to me. Then i play it how i want to, (well ...as good as i can). That's the beauty of folk music to me, but others may think differently. If it fits with somebody else's ideas that's all the better.

imo none of these "traditional" tunes where "composed" they have "evolved" over centuries or even millennia, from nursery rhymes or lullaby's etc. If they had a valid composer, (as opposed to "Arranger"), i would play it as close as i could to how they wrote it down... if i liked it. Otherwise it goes through my "tunemill" same as it does with any other player, and comes out how i play it, mixed up with some good ideas from other players.

Sep 4, 2020 - 4:01:24 AM

2653 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob

 Double jigs (12/8) have been around for a long time,


"Double Jigs" are typically thought of as in typical 6/8. They have that Diddley Piddley feel... They are what most folks think of as a "jig" -

Differs from "Single jigs" which have more of the quarter eighth feel of Humpty Dumpty. More bouncy, less fluid/flowing. As well, often in 6/8. "Off She Goes" is great example.

"Slides" are what are typically thought as 12/8. Besides more feel of 4, have different feel of articulation. (almost polka like)

That said, some folks play the latter same way as double jigs.

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