An addendum...

I know someone who did a workshop with Burke and said that Burke could execute his bowings starting with an up bow or a down bow and made light of the "complexity" of bowing since the bow really only went two ways---up or down.

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Originally posted by ShawnCraver

An addendum...

I know someone who did a workshop with Burke and said that Burke could execute his bowings starting with an up bow or a down bow and made light of the "complexity" of bowing since the bow really only went two ways---up or down.

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Also, in Kevin's Homespun lessons " Learn to Play Irish Fiddle" Disc 1 he states that it is unusual for Irish players playing in a group to bow in the same direction for more than a bar or two. 

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Originally posted by Johnbow

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

In this video, Kevin Burk, an Irish fiddler, says that the bow isn't the rhythm-maker, the tune is the rhythm-maker.
youtu.be/1AMesSTGSd8?t=160
 

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That does seem an odd comment by Kevin Burke and one in which I struggle a bit to understand. I suppose he believes the rhythm is inherent within the structure of the tune itself, which has to be somewhat true but then obviously the bow is used to generate the accents which certainly aid in defining the rhythm. Yeah, I don’t get that one.

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Well said. That's just what I was thinking.   Giving each note its proper time division is what creates rhythm and that's inherent in the tune itself - and of course the bow (or pick on plectrum instruments) is actually what plays the note.  I guessing maybe Burke was intending to emphasis that old time music has a more defined and exaggerated rhythm?? Or not.

I'm not quite sure how many tunes I've tackled in my O'Neill's 1001, but I can say that, other than my penchant for starting everything with a down bow, I tend to just let the tune dictate the bowing. I figure that if it's an Irish tune it'll be straightforward and instantly hummable. I do my best to make that happen.

George Washington and John Adams loved Irish jigs, and at the presidential balls half or more of the tunes were 6/8. However, once congress decided that far too many people were dancing to jigs in the pubs--and thusly missing work in the morn'-- 6/8 tunes became illegal, and fiddlers caught playing jigs could be sentenced to years of hard labour; henceforth, reels dominated in America by 1860 or so (See "The Boston Jig and Dance Amendment" ). Moreover, once Custer was defeated at Little Big Horn, jigs REALLY became unpopular, for the 7th Cavalry rode to "Garry Owen," Custer's favourite jig, and nobody wanted to hear the tune on the radio after that debacle. All of which led to one of the main differences betwixt the two styles, Irish incorporates plenty of 6/8 tunes whereas Old Time doth not.

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Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

George Washington and John Adams loved Irish jigs, and at the presidential balls half or more of the tunes were 6/8. However, once congress decided that far too many people were dancing to jigs in the pubs--and thusly missing work in the morn'-- 6/8 tunes became illegal, and fiddlers caught playing jigs could be sentenced to years of hard labour; henceforth, reels dominated in America by 1860 or so (See "The Boston Jig and Dance Amendment" ). Moreover, once Custer was defeated at Little Big Horn, jigs REALLY became unpopular, for the 7th Cavalry rode to "Garry Owen," Custer's favourite jig, and nobody wanted to hear the tune on the radio after that debacle. All of which led to one of the main differences betwixt the two styles, Irish incorporates plenty of 6/8 tunes whereas Old Time doth not.

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Hmmmm.. Just ...As.. I ... Suspected.. .. !!

Ah, thanks. Now I know why I could never find Garry Owen on my radio after July of '76...er, I mean 1876.

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Originally posted by ShawnCraver

It makes sense to me in a way. Notice that after Burke makes an absolute statement about bowing not driving the tune, he details a bowing pattern he uses. But in his -beliefs-...the bottom line is that Burke is not ruled by his bowing habits. But has the ability to detail his bowing. For example "a move he uses a lot".

Conceptually Burke defers to the tune as the driving force for the music. It's like the music ends up telling him to bow like he does and because Burke has the capacity to decipher it and execute it consistently he can tell you what he does...some times.

But ultimately -- For Burke (and many traditional fiddlers), the tune-the spirit of it comes first, and the bowing is not imposed on the tune, but vice versa. The bowing is a result of submitting to the music.

I think old time fiddling is similar, though music school bowers-or pattern bowers are more likely to impose their bowing upon the tune instead of allowing the tune to speak to the bowing.

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Thank you. That is a good way to put it.

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Originally posted by Evermore

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Originally posted by Johnbow

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

In this video, Kevin Burk, an Irish fiddler, says that the bow isn't the rhythm-maker, the tune is the rhythm-maker.
youtu.be/1AMesSTGSd8?t=160
 

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That does seem an odd comment by Kevin Burke and one in which I struggle a bit to understand. I suppose he believes the rhythm is inherent within the structure of the tune itself, which has to be somewhat true but then obviously the bow is used to generate the accents which certainly aid in defining the rhythm. Yeah, I don’t get that one.

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Well said. That's just what I was thinking.   Giving each note its proper time division is what creates rhythm and that's inherent in the tune itself - and of course the bow (or pick on plectrum instruments) is actually what plays the note.  I guessing maybe Burke was intending to emphasis that old time music has a more defined and exaggerated rhythm?? Or not.

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Not sure if folks actually watched the video. It's a good video; and most aspects useful to all styles.

BUT he doesn't actually say any of things attributed. He doesn't say "tune" or that the melody is rhythm-maker. Nor any mention of OT music at all; nor trying to define any difference between Irish vs OT. He was trying to discuss something else.

Inherent problem sometimes with traditional players difficulty trying to explain what they do... or how they think about the music. His comment was possibly similar to other conversations, and other traditional players... having to do with the popular concept of rhythm being from directional bowing patterns; not just OT... in Irish fiddling and many others.

Many traditional players (of most genre/style) simply do not think of the bow in those pattern terms. No it's not some nonsense "anywhichway" concept either. The video demonstrates in a couple ways how he thinks about bowing (grouping, accent, slur, and rocks) as relates to the rhythmic feel. These "concepts" can apply to any genre.

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Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

George Washington and John Adams loved Irish jigs, and at the presidential balls half or more of the tunes were 6/8. However, once congress decided that far too many people were dancing to jigs in the pubs--and thusly missing work in the morn'-- 6/8 tunes became illegal, and fiddlers caught playing jigs could be sentenced to years of hard labour; henceforth, reels dominated in America by 1860 or so (See "The Boston Jig and Dance Amendment" ). Moreover, once Custer was defeated at Little Big Horn, jigs REALLY became unpopular, for the 7th Cavalry rode to "Garry Owen," Custer's favourite jig, and nobody wanted to hear the tune on the radio after that debacle. All of which led to one of the main differences betwixt the two styles, Irish incorporates plenty of 6/8 tunes whereas Old Time doth not.

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I had been wondering why there were no known field recordings of any of the Hogslop family playing jigs.

Alaskafiddler, thanks for encouraging the watching of the actual video. Its a good one - time well spent. One thing I could relate to was that I too sometimes miss the high string on those string crossing passages. Good to know he's not perfect either!

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

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Originally posted by Evermore

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Originally posted by Johnbow

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Originally posted by sbhikes2

In this video, Kevin Burk, an Irish fiddler, says that the bow isn't the rhythm-maker, the tune is the rhythm-maker.
youtu.be/1AMesSTGSd8?t=160
 

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That does seem an odd comment by Kevin Burke and one in which I struggle a bit to understand. I suppose he believes the rhythm is inherent within the structure of the tune itself, which has to be somewhat true but then obviously the bow is used to generate the accents which certainly aid in defining the rhythm. Yeah, I don’t get that one.

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Well said. That's just what I was thinking.   Giving each note its proper time division is what creates rhythm and that's inherent in the tune itself - and of course the bow (or pick on plectrum instruments) is actually what plays the note.  I guessing maybe Burke was intending to emphasis that old time music has a more defined and exaggerated rhythm?? Or not.

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Not sure if folks actually watched the video. It's a good video; and most aspects useful to all styles.

BUT he doesn't actually say any of things attributed. He doesn't say "tune" or that the melody is rhythm-maker. Nor any mention of OT music at all; nor trying to define any difference between Irish vs OT. He was trying to discuss something else.

Inherent problem sometimes with traditional players difficulty trying to explain what they do... or how they think about the music. His comment was possibly similar to other conversations, and other traditional players... having to do with the popular concept of rhythm being from directional bowing patterns; not just OT... in Irish fiddling and many others.

Many traditional players (of most genre/style) simply do not think of the bow in those pattern terms. No it's not some nonsense "anywhichway" concept either. The video demonstrates in a couple ways how he thinks about bowing (grouping, accent, slur, and rocks) as relates to the rhythmic feel. These "concepts" can apply to any genre.

 

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Of course it’s a good and useful video - it’s Kevin Burke after all. He does too say exactly that which some have attributed.  In fact, his exact words are - “I view the bow as a tone maker much more than a rhythm maker.  I don’t think about the bow in terms of rhythm at all...”.  Pretty plain words.  He does go on to contradict himself by discussing certain patterns and approaches he often takes when playing the various dance forms common to ITM.

We are, all of us, pattern players; at least in the sense that over time we tend to use and reuse certain approaches (patterns) whenever we encounter a recognizable sequence in which a known approach (pattern) will be useful to us.  This is true in traditional music, jazz and classical music as well.

Yep. Analyzing Burke's language made me want to look up the definitions of "tone" and "tune" in the dictionary because he is ambiguous... as many fiddlers are with language. But no doubt he definitely details his "moves" or patterns in good detail.

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Originally posted by ShawnCraver

Yep. Analyzing Burke's language made me want to look up the definitions of "tone" and "tune" in the dictionary because he is ambiguous... as many fiddlers are with language. But no doubt he definitely details his "moves" or patterns in good detail.

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I agree. It seems that’s what the video is largely about. I’m not sure how one would put together a teaching video without referring to the use of moves or patterns - it’s all about describing what is being done with the bow.

I still struggle to understand just what he meant with his comment about not seeing the bow as a rhythm maker.  I suppose what he may mean is just that it’s not something he needs to think about, knowing that by using various patterns he will achieve the desired rhythm with respect to the type of dance he’s playing.

I was watching a Frankie Gavin workshop video and he contradicts a lot of info in this Burke video we're discussing. For example Frankie Gavin likes to bear down on the strings with the bow and use more percussive short strokes. Martin Hayes, another great in Irish music would be another study in bowing.

So back to the original subject of this topic... I think it is difficult to compare "Irish" fiddling to "Old Time" fiddling because neither are homogenized in bowing or style. Comparing individual fiddlers might be easier.

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Originally posted by Johnbow

Of course it’s a good and useful video - it’s Kevin Burke after all. He does too say exactly that which some have attributed.  In fact, his exact words are - “I view the bow as a tone maker much more than a rhythm maker.  I don’t think about the bow in terms of rhythm at all...”.  Pretty plain words.  He does go on to contradict himself by discussing certain patterns and approaches he often takes when playing the various dance forms common to ITM.

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For many folks "tone" people mean timbre... and the bow plays a role in getting that tone. (grip vs stroke might be referring to that idea of tone).  Different than "tune" which would refer to the melody/composition. (that might be played on other instruments as well).

As far as  "I don’t think about the bow in terms of rhythm at all" -   I don't see it as he necessarily contradicts himself. This reminds me of interviews, conversations and feedback with these players as instructors for workshops or camps. (I used to run some of these).

The way many of these players learned, and approach playing... vs the realization that many modern students want or need. Many students come more from other education process, perceptions, beliefs and presumptions. Things like bowing pattern; or strum pattern  for guitar/uke; as well perhaps similar the topic of notation/tab and terminology; quarter notes, counting time; metric grid; essentially "quantifiable" numeric instructions; are things they want or need.

So some instructors despite explaining they don't think that way, but  "having said all that..."  -  try to oblige what those students want to some degree. (maybe just demonstrating a few common things that might show up in "their" playing.)

Not to speak for Kevin... just suggesting a possibility.

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Originally posted by Johnbow

We are, all of us, pattern players; at least in the sense that over time we tend to use and reuse certain approaches (patterns) whenever we encounter a recognizable sequence in which a known approach (pattern) will be useful to us.  This is true in traditional music, jazz and classical music as well.

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That is pretty much example of above, what many students presume or logic. Was a common theme from pogo threads... thus his advocacy for pattern bowing approach. As well his inability to wrap his head around any alternative way  to approach rhythm. (hence his idea of some anywhichway; random rhythm?). Kind of missed the point... .

But no, not all take a prescriptive pattern process approach, and yes, there are alternative approaches or ways of thinking about it.

Originally posted by Johnbow

We are, all of us, pattern players; at least in the sense that over time we tend to use and reuse certain approaches (patterns) whenever we encounter a recognizable sequence in which a known approach (pattern) will be useful to us.  This is true in traditional music, jazz and classical music as well.

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That is pretty much example of above, what many students presume or logic. Was a common theme from pogo threads... thus his advocacy for pattern bowing approach. As well his inability to wrap his head around any alternative way  to approach rhythm. (hence his idea of some anywhichway; random rhythm?). Kind of missed the point... .

But no, not all take a prescriptive pattern process approach, and yes, there are alternative approaches or ways of thinking about it.

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Good morning.  I should say that I do not believe anyone on this forum needs me to explain anything to them about the way to play the fiddle. I find it to be one of the great attractions of playing this genre that individual expression is not only possible but seems to be at least somewhat encouraged.  I am using a fairly broad voice when making my initial statement as you quoted above.

I’m not referring to the idea that Pattern 1 must be closely followed by Pattern 2 and with every A and B part ended by Pattern 3, though I’m sure there are players who very successfully do something similar to this.  Rather, I’m referring to the idea that we as players develop approaches, tendencies, moves or patterns that we often employ when we come across the various rhymical groupings of notes commonly found throughout the music we play.

For example, many players when they encounter a group of eight, 1/8th notes will play some sort of shuffle. Of course, there are many other ways of playing those eight notes, but many if not most of those ways will also conform to some sort of pattern.

Anyway, there’s more to say but I must (unfortunately), finish up my hurricane prep and so I’m off.

 

Irish.. Old Time.. a friend and I .. she Irish musician, me, Old time, sat down one afternoon and identified about 50 'crossover' tunes that we could play together.. That was fun..

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Irish.. Old Time.. a friend and I .. she Irish musician, me, Old time, sat down one afternoon and identified about 50 'crossover' tunes that we could play together.. That was fun..

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You're lucky to have that friend.  I've become somewhat bereft of musical companions over the last couple years. I got to get out there and mix it up a bit. Lazy...

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Irish.. Old Time.. a friend and I .. she Irish musician, me, Old time, sat down one afternoon and identified about 50 'crossover' tunes that we could play together.. That was fun..

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Yep there are a lot of  tunes that are common, or share similar form.

I grew up around bit of background of both... although it was before old-time was invented. Continued to enjoy playing both.

BTW, you could hear on some of the older players that still had aspects like  ornaments, associated with Irish or Scottish fiddling. Mostly seems to have disappeared, or dissuaded in modern playing?

The other day I showed up at the jam and they were playing Irish tune after Irish tune and I asked, what's happening here? Is it Irish night at the old time jam? There are a lot more crossovers than I ever thought.

That might be a fun other topic... maybe TuneWeaver wants to start; coming up with a list of tunes that exist in both genres.

alaskafiddler - "before old time was invented" - you must be older than I thought!
As far as "old world" ornaments, if you listen to Eck Robertson's recording of "Ragtime Annie" I think you'll hear some of that. After all, his full name was Alexander Campbell Robertson. Not many people play it like that these days though.
Back in my Highwoods days we began to find ourselves playing at festivals with Irish and Scottish musicians, and we wanted to jam together at parties. We had some common ground, especially since some of us were familiar with New England and Cape Breton music. About this same time Mick Moloney, the great Irish player, first came over here to study, and found himself in a similar situation. He offered to make us a tape of the 100 (I think) most common Irish tunes if we would do the same for American old time music. We of course agreed, and if we didn't have source recordings we just made them ourselves. It was a great help.

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Originally posted by DougD

alaskafiddler - "before old time was invented" - you must be older than I thought!
 

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There wasn't the term "old-time" or concept, as defined in way many modern folks use the term. Which seems to have come about in the 60s or 70s; revival from urban or academic folks? 

Where I grew up, it wasn't that; folks played fiddle, banjo, guitar, sang, along the older ideas of mostly for their own/local enjoyment...  just without concern with conforming to all the labels, rules, preservation and purity. This is what I mostly still base my playing on.

As been informed many times, by whoever "old-time" experts; apparently doesn't really qualify for their definition of authentic "old-time".

Yeah, sometimes I regret we ever invented it, seeing what's happened to it today!
Seriously though, the term "old time music" was one of the terms used by record companies to refer to the records of rural (especially southern) music they began selling in the 1920's.
However the phrase, meaning something referring to or reminiscent of things from bygone days, is older than that. Polk Miller and his Old South Quartette presented a program titled "Old Times in the South" in the early years of the 20th century.
Applied specifically to music, the earliest reference I've found is in Governor Bob Taylor's little book "The Fiddle and Bow," published in 1896, which has a chapter titled "The Old Time Singing School." Its a little hard to tell if he's referring to the style of singing or the school itself. gutenberg.org/files/20171/2017...171-h.htm
I might add that unfortunately it was during his term as governor that most of the Jim Crow laws in the state of Tennessee were passed. I don't think government really suited him either, but he was a very successful lecturer, which is where those stories come from.