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Aug 16, 2020 - 10:13:36 AM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ShawnCraver

But isn't the topic kind of shifting from performance to practice? There may be a few bowing exercises apart from tunes I might practice sometimes, but if I'm playing/performing a tune for myself or others, I'm playing it to enjoy it and make it musical whether playing slow or fast.

From a practice standpoint... There is a time for slowing down things to learn, but playing fast requires playing fast. So practicing slow in order to play fast later can be a stumbling block.


I supposed that I wasn't very clear in the OP.. I was playing slow because I wanted to see why I was having trouble playing fast/smooth... I kept going slower and slower while listening/feeling what my HAND was doing with the bow..looking for the reason I wasn't smooth when playing fast.. Once I discovered how to make it smooth I increased the speed with the newly discovered bow movements.. Does that make sense?  I wasn't trying to play a busking performance at that speed.. When passersby came along, I played much faster.. I only practiced when the sidewalk was quite..

Yes it is often difficult to describe what is happening if fast playing, and that is ok if the fast playing is 'working'.. In this case, it WASN"T and I needed to find out WHY..!!

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/16/2020 10:14:07

Aug 16, 2020 - 11:04:19 AM
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2665 posts since 9/13/2009

Okay I think I get where you are going now...

Although I still am skeptical about going too slow and the idea of flow. I think there is a point of diminish return. Flow is to me, the continuity of a sequence. Like in dancing, there is kind of minimum point where it just looses any sense of flow... the same movement of whole body (knees, hips ankles); instead it just becomes individual step of feet.

playing fast requires playing fast. So practicing slow in order to play fast later can be a stumbling block.

I agree, some  folks get stuck in that kind of slow or lopey rut... their slow doesn't always translate the same needed to play fast. As matter of fact you can get by with pretty inefficient if slow enough. Really should be practicing the fast but in "slow motion" Paradox that you need to have experience of what playing fast feels like.  

Aug 16, 2020 - 11:57:18 AM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Okay I think I get where you are going now...

Although I still am skeptical about going too slow and the idea of flow. I think there is a point of diminish return. Flow is to me, the continuity of a sequence. Like in dancing, there is kind of minimum point where it just looses any sense of flow... the same movement of whole body (knees, hips ankles); instead it just becomes individual step of feet.

playing fast requires playing fast. So practicing slow in order to play fast later can be a stumbling block.

I agree, some  folks get stuck in that kind of slow or lopey rut... their slow doesn't always translate the same needed to play fast. As matter of fact you can get by with pretty inefficient if slow enough. Really should be practicing the fast but in "slow motion" Paradox that you need to have experience of what playing fast feels like.  


I agree with everything here, and well put. I only play extra slow when I'm learning something and don't have it yet. Doing it for its own sake never made much sense to me although, obviously, it does to others.

Aug 16, 2020 - 12:54:57 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

The printed word can be SO hard to understand... Once, that 'famous' seer, Edgar Cayce, after having heard what the listeners said about one of his statements, said, "I read it out...and You read it in."... That happens often here on the Hangout.. just human nature, I guesswink

Aug 16, 2020 - 1:12:03 PM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

The printed word can be SO hard to understand... Once, that 'famous' seer, Edgar Cayce, after having heard what the listeners said about one of his statements, said, "I read it out...and You read it in."... That happens often here on the Hangout.. just human nature, I guesswink


That's a rather mysterious statement. And I think using Edgar Cayce to illustrate a point about factual clarity is also mysterious.

Aug 16, 2020 - 1:15:23 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

The printed word can be SO hard to understand... Once, that 'famous' seer, Edgar Cayce, after having heard what the listeners said about one of his statements, said, "I read it out...and You read it in."... That happens often here on the Hangout.. just human nature, I guesswink  


That's a rather mysterious statement. And I think using Edgar Cayce to illustrate a point about factual clarity is also mysterious.


Well, remember, I'm not even using my real name here..(mysterious?)... and yes Cayce is controversial.. The drama builds...!!!!laugh He was saying that we tend to read into comments things that aren't there..!! I do it all the time..Actually, Truth Be Told, that is my Superpower..cheeky

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/16/2020 13:16:57

Aug 16, 2020 - 5:16:08 PM

2262 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
 

But why not ALSO practice SHORT SLOW bows where I need them ??smiley


Because the brain has better retention of information if aspects of technique are isolated in practice so that any particular technique can be played anywhere at any time you need it. 

Aug 16, 2020 - 5:18:16 PM
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9037 posts since 3/19/2009

OK..

Aug 16, 2020 - 7:18:07 PM

11840 posts since 9/23/2009
Online Now

I agree if you like to play fast you need to practice fast.

Aug 16, 2020 - 7:20:11 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I agree if you like to play fast you need to practice fast.


Hmmm.. BUt if you sound terrible playing fast, it is good to slow down, work out the kinks and then go fast again.. THAT is what i'm doing.. Others may take another technique.. 

Aug 16, 2020 - 8:13:11 PM
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1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

The printed word can be SO hard to understand... Once, that 'famous' seer, Edgar Cayce, after having heard what the listeners said about one of his statements, said, "I read it out...and You read it in."... That happens often here on the Hangout.. just human nature, I guesswink  


That's a rather mysterious statement. And I think using Edgar Cayce to illustrate a point about factual clarity is also mysterious.


Well, remember, I'm not even using my real name here..(mysterious?)... and yes Cayce is controversial.. The drama builds...!!!!laugh He was saying that we tend to read into comments things that aren't there..!! I do it all the time..Actually, Truth Be Told, that is my Superpower..cheeky

 

 


You're not really Lee? Oh no! Maybe I should get a pseudonym too. But I'd have to log out and come back, otherwise everybody'd know. It's true, I am no fan of metaphysics, but so what. Maybe I was Edgar Casey in my last life and I'm trying for different experiences this time so I'm in denial. Time for a beer.

Aug 17, 2020 - 5:17:05 AM

11840 posts since 9/23/2009
Online Now

Hmmm... I really am groundhogpeggy...says so on my birth certificate...I mean, if I did have one, it would say that.

Aug 17, 2020 - 3:09:02 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

So.. If any of you NEEDED $1,000 dollars, and if Someone was to tell you that they'd GIVE you $1,000..if you would take one of your fastest tunes, and put your playing on PAPER showing Bow movement.. What would you do? How slow would have to play in order to see what you do with your bow ...!!? (Just a fun thought)...( this could be a whole new topic,... but that takes too much effort..laugh

Aug 17, 2020 - 3:40:47 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

The printed word can be SO hard to understand... Once, that 'famous' seer, Edgar Cayce, after having heard what the listeners said about one of his statements, said, "I read it out...and You read it in."... That happens often here on the Hangout.. just human nature, I guesswink  


That's a rather mysterious statement. And I think using Edgar Cayce to illustrate a point about factual clarity is also mysterious.


Well, remember, I'm not even using my real name here..(mysterious?)... and yes Cayce is controversial.. The drama builds...!!!!laugh He was saying that we tend to read into comments things that aren't there..!! I do it all the time..Actually, Truth Be Told, that is my Superpower..cheeky

 

 


You're not really Lee? Oh no! Maybe I should get a pseudonym too. But I'd have to log out and come back, otherwise everybody'd know. It's true, I am no fan of metaphysics, but so what. Maybe I was Edgar Casey in my last life and I'm trying for different experiences this time so I'm in denial. Time for a beer.


Sorry, Brian, my real name is LeRoy...truth be told..and HERE on the Hangout is the reveal...Just as a side note,....I just returned from a visit to Columbia, Missouri.. I couldn't help but to notice that right across the street from their  public library was a  SCHOOL of METAPHYSICS.... one can only wonder what type of Everywhichway fiddling they teach there!!

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/17/2020 15:45:06

Aug 17, 2020 - 3:46:31 PM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

So.. If any of you NEEDED $1,000 dollars, and if Someone was to tell you that they'd GIVE you $1,000..if you would take one of your fastest tunes, and put your playing on PAPER showing Bow movement.. What would you do? How slow would have to play in order to see what you do with your bow ...!!? (Just a fun thought)...( this could be a whole new topic,... but that takes too much effort..laugh


I'd do it for that. Heck, I'd do it for nothing if I was in the mood. I write the notes all the time but seldom make bowing suggestions on anything I transcribe. Bowing is important, but my bowing usually finds its own way, and I just let it. If I did it I wouldn't have to slow down too much I don't think. On the occasion when I do have a bowing issue I slow down quite a bit because I have to decide how I'm going to change what I'm doing, and remember it from then on.

Aug 17, 2020 - 3:50:02 PM
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9037 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

So.. If any of you NEEDED $1,000 dollars, and if Someone was to tell you that they'd GIVE you $1,000..if you would take one of your fastest tunes, and put your playing on PAPER showing Bow movement.. What would you do? How slow would have to play in order to see what you do with your bow ...!!? (Just a fun thought)...( this could be a whole new topic,... but that takes too much effort..laugh


I'd do it for that. Heck, I'd do it for nothing if I was in the mood. I write the notes all the time but seldom make bowing suggestions on anything I transcribe. Bowing is important, but my bowing usually finds its own way, and I just let it. If I did it I wouldn't have to slow down too much I don't think. On the occasion when I do have a bowing issue I slow down quite a bit because I have to decide how I'm going to change what I'm doing, and remember it from then on.


EXACTLY.. Bowing seems easy until we have to SHOW it...It has always bugged me that sheet music always tends to show the notes but not the BOWING, which is really the most important thing..

Aug 17, 2020 - 4:06:46 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

I never could understand that.

Aug 17, 2020 - 4:53:51 PM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I never could understand that.


Actually, I understand why sheet music leaves out bowing for the most part. It's because bowing isn't especially crucial to the tune as long as you have basic skills from which to play. Trying to read bowing marks really slows me down. TMI for me. Except, as I said, for little places occasionally that get me. But what gets me wouldn't likely be what gets anybody else. It's personal, so I almost never mark up sheet music I'm sharing.

Aug 17, 2020 - 5:17:39 PM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

There is a balance.. Often, really, students would come to me with their fiddle book and I'd have to put in pencil bowing suggestions.. Slurs.. Then, they'd play it and say that it finally sounds like fiddling. For experienced fiddlers, they can figure out the bowing without the slurs showing, but for BEGINNERS, the slurs make a difference.. As I ALWAYS say.. '" it depends on the fiddler"... some need to see the bowing, and some can figure it out for themselves..............

Aug 17, 2020 - 6:17:10 PM
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2262 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
sheet music always tends to show the notes but not the BOWING, which is really the most important thing..

 


I don't think the bowing has the most importance because the notes are how the tune goes. Those notes can be interpreted with many different bowings, and to include them would clutter the sheet music.  All the 'fiddle tune books' I've seen don't have marked bowings because it's assumed that the player has some knowledge of the simple/basic bowings. However, in 'beginner fiddle books' the (basic) bowings are always marked to facilitate the learning process. 

Some studies for violin have the bowing variations marked separately from the actual exercise to avoid the clutter. In 'Kayser.op 20, book 1' the marked bowings can be labeled as... chain bowing, hook stroke, single shuffle and reversed, and the Georgia bow which I call 'three in one bow and one in the other stroke', beginning up or down, on or off the beat, and reversed. That's about all the bowings which exist in folk fiddling, all in a 'elementary violin studies book'. 

Aug 18, 2020 - 4:30:50 AM

11840 posts since 9/23/2009
Online Now

I like the interplay of notes plus bowing, in my own attempts at fiddling. I am willing to sacrifice notes for the sake of cool bowing...as Dwight Diller says..."Don't let the left hand be the boss." Just sorta drop the notes down into the right hand groove however they can sift down through. I know a lot of people disagree with that whole idea, but it's what I personally like to try to go for when I play...for whatever that's worth. I didn't exactly learn the concept from Dwight, but learned that I aspired to it from Dwight...he was sorta the "pogo" who could parse it out enough for me to find enough words to be able to think about it and explore it more, knowing what it was I was exploring and trying to do. Of course we didn't agree on how to go about that on the fiddle...lol...but the concept is the same and the end result should be too. The road you take might be different than another fiddler. Just my 2 cents. I won't charge today.

Aug 18, 2020 - 4:36:44 AM

9037 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
sheet music always tends to show the notes but not the BOWING, which is really the most important thing..

 


I don't think the bowing has the most importance because the notes are how the tune goes. Those notes can be interpreted with many different bowings, and to include them would clutter the sheet music.  All the 'fiddle tune books' I've seen don't have marked bowings because it's assumed that the player has some knowledge of the simple/basic bowings. However, in 'beginner fiddle books' the (basic) bowings are always marked to facilitate the learning process. 

Some studies for violin have the bowing variations marked separately from the actual exercise to avoid the clutter. In 'Kayser.op 20, book 1' the marked bowings can be labeled as... chain bowing, hook stroke, single shuffle and reversed, and the Georgia bow which I call 'three in one bow and one in the other stroke', beginning up or down, on or off the beat, and reversed. That's about all the bowings which exist in folk fiddling, all in a 'elementary violin studies book'. 

 

 


I have been known to read about the bowing in fiddle books when I was learning but at that time I just couldn't understand it..no teacher and no skill..!! and you are right, it does seem to be assumed that musicians can figure out their own bowing but my observation is that many Can't... 

Apr 14, 2021 - 7:42:52 PM

216 posts since 4/15/2019

I do not care for playing a tune faster than it was meant to be played. For instance, most people think the faster you play a song the better. Take Old Joe Clark for example. Most fiddlers want to play way faster than it was meant to be played. In my opinion it sounds so much better at the right tempo.

Apr 15, 2021 - 8:26:33 AM

5096 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

So.. take one of your fastest tunes, and put your playing on PAPER showing Bow movement.. What would you do? How slow would have to play in order to see what you do with your bow ...!!? 


When I slow down, I bow it a totally different way - I've tried. Tempo changes what I do/how I think (or don't think) about it. 

Apr 15, 2021 - 8:35:16 AM

5096 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by old cowboy

I do not care for playing a tune faster than it was meant to be played. For instance, most people think the faster you play a song the better. Take Old Joe Clark for example. Most fiddlers want to play way faster than it was meant to be played. In my opinion it sounds so much better at the right tempo.


The show offs think 'faster is better' laugh but really it's kind of subjective. Most tunes are/were dance tunes. Dance tempo varies regionally from, say, a bouncy 110bpm (easy contra tempo) to a zippy140bpm* (clogging speed in MO). Convert the tune to bluegrass and who knows what you'll get, though some tunes were written to be played fast (Wheel Hoss... another G tune.. Roanoke?).

 

*Not looking for a discussion about BPM. Tempos listed are not absolutes, just examples of a variety of dance tempo. 

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