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Jul 18, 2020 - 1:40:40 PM
11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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I think I call this upbowing. Thinking about stuff that came up in another post. I just got curious about this style, after having not thought of it for a long, long time.

I think it's very energetic and interesting.

youtu.be/_NmvrAuqMkQ

And now...I gotta do the dishes and start on supper. This has been a weird day...nothin' but messin' around on the internet...lol...lots of work to do. It's only like mid 90s with a heat index of 105 or something...lol...makes ya kinda lazy, I guess.

Jul 18, 2020 - 1:42:54 PM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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More upbowing???? Possibly?

youtu.be/1Z0ttj1s1wI

Jul 18, 2020 - 2:12:38 PM

8716 posts since 3/19/2009
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No.. on the second video it seems to be a strong up bow before Major down bow.. Neat, at least. On the first video it seems to be a strong Off beat on the first short note of  a basic Nashville shuffle.. Not, up bowing.... Let's hear what the experts say...... I'll sit back. 

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 07/18/2020 14:14:52

Jul 18, 2020 - 3:06:28 PM

DougD

USA

9768 posts since 12/2/2007
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I don't think I see upbowing in the first video. Looks like the strong emphasis is played with a downbow.
The version of "Camp Chase" that Dwight is playing in the second video (which I think comes from Emory Bailey - you can hear it at Slippery Hill, in the M-K section) has some "crooked" timing that may force you to change bow direction. I play that version too - I'll have to see how I bow it, if I ever pick up the fiddle again. (Just an aside - you've often mentioned Dwight as an example of the "upbowing" you associate with NE KY, Ohio, and adjacenf WV, but he's not from that area at all - he's lived mostly clear on the other side of the state, which I think you know).
However, I do think there's something to what you're hearing. I want to post a video of JP Fraley in the "learning tunes" thread that may show it. But first I have to get back out on this delightfully warm day and unload some straw for mulch.
BTW "kygarv" who posted the first video, is Michael Garvin, who was Roger Cooper's apprentice in the video I linked. He's very interested in NE KY fiddling, and a member here too.

Edited by - DougD on 07/18/2020 15:10:38

Jul 18, 2020 - 4:07:12 PM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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Yep, I've been to Dwight Diller's place...just saying...this is what I've always thought of as upbowing. Not the exact opposite of downbowing, I mean, still a strong downbow, but I don't know how else to describe it except as upward jabs with the bow in between the downbows...lol. What does constitute upbowing, for real...anyone, anyone? And would you include this style as part of downbowing? Makes no difference, I guess, but I'm just curious and confused.

Jul 18, 2020 - 6:21:02 PM
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4847 posts since 9/26/2008

Both of those videos are clearly down bowing. What is meant by that is they start the phrases on down bows. There an emphasis on the backbeat, that happens to mostly coincide with the up bow. 1 2 3 4 as you tap your foot.  But down/up bowing refers to starting the phrases with said bow.

Here is John Morris, who if I recall, Peggy is a fan of, playing “Sugar in the Gourd.”John Morris up bowing He starts the phrases with an up bow that switches to a down bow the second time around - upA downA upB downB. I looked at another old clip of him (“Ever Seen the Devil...”) but the video didn’t playback as smoothly as I remember from years ago. Anyway, I remember there being discussion about him being an up bower and it is evident in that video which was the example then. I think his style is the exception rather than the rule, BUT I know a few fiddlers who do the opposite, meaning they still do both types, just reversed - dA uA dB uB. Does that make sense?

Jul 18, 2020 - 6:37:57 PM
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11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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Oh yeah...and that dancing girl gets me everytime...man, she is GOOD. Makes me wanna dance, but, the world doesn't need that.

Ok...well yeah I see what you mean. Except am I seeing that John Morris is doing the same upward jabbing thing as Dwight and Bill in the first video...except that his upbows consistently come at the beginnings of phrases whereas the other two do that upward jabbing thing for their groove, even though their beginnings of phrases are downbowed...so...does that mean anything? I love John Morris's fiddling. I played at one of his jams back when I first was learning to fiddle...of course, I couldn't begin to keep up...lol. I might have a chance if I went now...12 years later...but maybe not.

Any kind of old time normally emphasizes the 2 and 4 beats, though, right?

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/18/2020 18:40:15

Jul 18, 2020 - 6:39:05 PM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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I know the video you're talking about where it gets all out of sync between sight and sound...that is so frustrating.

Jul 18, 2020 - 6:45:43 PM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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I don't need to be thinking that much about bowing at the moment...lol...I mean, N. Shuffling, plus going in and out of that to just make up for beats in between shuffles...which are of course some other previously named shuffle or lick I may or may not have heard of, is just my way by now and I enjoy it so much I'm not so sure I wanna think too far into bowing again by now.  I'm considering myself a downbower, although I've come to find myself ok with going the other way at times, as much as that would have shocked Pogo...lol.

However, I do get curious...have no music in my family at all...I'm the only one. But the counties where both sides of my family came from and also where they ended up together gets me curious about which types of fiddling were done where.  No fiddling in my family, but I heard it by unprofessional old timers in different areas throughout the years and a lot of it seems to stick into my memory. Not how to do it or what they played...just the general sounds.

By the way, Dwight is pretty West Va, I think, in his music. But he told me that the Hammons, that he learned music from, came from the same county where I lived for several years in KY, same area as my family from SE KY...very close...they moved way up there toward the NE of WV during the Civil War...I guess to find a more peaceful area that where they were.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/18/2020 18:48:39

Jul 19, 2020 - 4:28:51 AM

Jimbeaux

Germany

350 posts since 5/24/2016

People who think in numbers call this 3-1 bowing, where as the 1 can be an up bow or a down bow (three slurs up, one down or three slurs down one up).

The first video is three slurs down, one up. It's hard to do at first, but once you realize you just have to do that "1" when you tap your foot, and everything else is a slur, it becomes pretty easy. You could also do it the opposite, by putting the "1" on the up beat.

FiddlerPaul71 told me that Dwight Diller called the "three down, one up" pattern something like a celtic or irish lilt. Is that right, Paul?

The three up, one down pattern is often called the Georgia shuffle.

This pattern makes it easy to emphasize the down beat, but it can be a little over the top/overemphasized when used by a heavy-handed fiddler. I try to use it sparingly, becaue I like to emphasize the beat and find I'll overemphasize it if I use the 3-1 bowing.

I heard from a former student of Ken Kolodner that he uses 3-1 bowing alot. Here's a video of him playing Mike in the Wilderness with 3-1 bowing (which Salyer of course didn't ever do, but that's fine): youtu.be/EaWvL72mnic

Edited by - Jimbeaux on 07/19/2020 04:30:59

Jul 19, 2020 - 6:44:33 AM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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I don't know if Dwight ever talked about Georgia Shuffle, but I never heard him play it and would be totally shocked out of my mind if he did...lol. That sounds too far out. John Morris, though, yeah there is a 3-1 if you wanna call it that in a lot of his playing, or whatever it was, numerically, going on...but it's more like what Pogo called Smoothshuffle...I believe...not exactly, so don't expect me to have that exactly right on, math is definitely not my thing, but I'm just saying more of the feel of that than Georgia Shuffle...in my thinking and hearing, anyway.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/19/2020 06:46:44

Jul 19, 2020 - 7:38:41 AM

Jimbeaux

Germany

350 posts since 5/24/2016

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I don't know if Dwight ever talked about Georgia Shuffle, but I never heard him play it and would be totally shocked out of my mind if he did...lol. That sounds too far out. John Morris, though, yeah there is a 3-1 if you wanna call it that in a lot of his playing, or whatever it was, numerically, going on...but it's more like what Pogo called Smoothshuffle...I believe...not exactly, so don't expect me to have that exactly right on, math is definitely not my thing, but I'm just saying more of the feel of that than Georgia Shuffle...in my thinking and hearing, anyway.


I didn't say that Dwight Diller played Georgia shuffle (up three down one), I said the other one (down three up one).

But, honestly, I really am not that familiar with Dwight Diller's playing. I was actually just repeating what I heard from Paul, and I'm not 100% sure if I remembered correctly, which is why I tagged him so he can correct me if I'm wrong. 

Peggy, since you met him, do you remember him talking about anything like a "lilt"? 

Jul 19, 2020 - 7:41:19 AM

Jimbeaux

Germany

350 posts since 5/24/2016

groundhogpeggy I checked the videos you posted again. The first one is 3-1 bowing (three down, one up), but Dwight Diller's is something else entirely.

Jul 19, 2020 - 9:47:24 AM
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11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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When I went to see him I was really a new and scratchy fiddler, or not even a fiddler I should say. We talked banjo. We talked banjo for months and then I finally went out there, although he was having a tough time with health problems at the time...I only stayed for one weekend.

I was telling him then about my idea that with clawhammer's bum diddy (with Dwight it progresses onto double thumbing and becomes more of a boom-a-lack-a, but still he acknowledges bum diddy for non double thumbing) you get the same as N. Shuffle, and was wanting to discuss things I'd hear about various other shuffles and licks.

Well he's not even happy about calling banjo groove bum diddies or boom a lackas, let alone fiddling. He was pretty resistant to my efforts to compare the two, if I remember it right. I played banjo and he fiddled along...I can't remember if he called his fiddling upbowing, for sure, but I either thought it was, myself, or heard him say it...this was back in maybe 2006 I think or so...it was pretty awesome bum diddying along with his fiddling...but that's about all I can recall about it. I came away with the idea it was upbowing, as fiddlers I'd seen in other places long before.

When he did stop to pick up a banjo and show me some things, it was beyond awesome...he is the best banjo player I have ever heard in my life. I sure felt priviledged and happy to be sitting there playing the banjo while he played the fiddle.

He told me about John Morris's jam at Vandalia just a week or two after that visit...so I made sure I got back for that...a lot closer to home than Dwight's place. Like I said, I wasn't really a fiddler yet, just mainly a fiddler inside my head...I mainly played banjo at the jam, but I tried to fiddle along some...not successfully. John Morris plays everything out of standard tuning. Dwight tunes his fiddle for whatever he's playing.

Dwight and I talked banjo rhythm qute a bit, but the conversation just never went anywhere if I tried to steer closer to fiddling rhythms...lol. I gotta add that he is sure a nice guy...obstinate in his opinions (but he's probably always right...lol), very polite and kind.  My daughter came along with me and drove, because I have a real anxiety about traveling and just about can't do it at all...so anyway, we paid for staying in his dorm and getting a ton of advice...shared some meals together with him and his little doggie, named Peggy...lol.  He was really nice to us and made us feel very safe and comfortable while at his place.  We stayed in touch for a few months after, but big changes came to both of our lives shortly after...I dropped out of the correspondences...a long time has gone by and I'm figuring with him being around so many people he'd never remember me by now so I haven't really tried to re-connect.  I'm happy for the months we wrote over email and the time I got to go to visit him and learn all I could from him.  I wish we had a friend like Dwight around here close by...lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/19/2020 09:54:20

Jul 19, 2020 - 10:23:41 AM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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The Ken Kolodner video didn't sound like Dwight or the others...yeah I do see the bowing pattern he was doing...didn't sound like what I'm thinking...did it sound similar to you? Or are you just showing the 3-1 thing? It had a similar Georgia Shuffle sound to my ear...I'm not that crazy about G. Shuffling...it gets on my nerves in a few mintues in the same way that Scruggs banjo picking does...lol. Not cutting anyone down that does it...they're all better than I'll ever be...just saying...lol. Anything too repetitive like that really drags on my nerves...although for some reason you can bum diddy all day and it doesn't bother me. This is just me...probably why I can't ever be happy at any jam I go to. But I guess your point was to illustrate a 3-1 bowing rhythm that's not really G. Shuffle...I get that, but it has a similar enough sound though, to me. It sounds different to me, anyway, than what I have called upbowing for years...maybe wrongly, it seems.

Jul 19, 2020 - 1:10:09 PM
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304 posts since 7/31/2018

quote:
Originally posted by Jimbeaux

People who think in numbers call this 3-1 bowing, where as the 1 can be an up bow or a down bow (three slurs up, one down or three slurs down one up).

The first video is three slurs down, one up. It's hard to do at first, but once you realize you just have to do that "1" when you tap your foot, and everything else is a slur, it becomes pretty easy. You could also do it the opposite, by putting the "1" on the up beat.

FiddlerPaul71 told me that Dwight Diller called the "three down, one up" pattern something like a celtic or irish lilt. Is that right, Paul?

The three up, one down pattern is often called the Georgia shuffle.

This pattern makes it easy to emphasize the down beat, but it can be a little over the top/overemphasized when used by a heavy-handed fiddler. I try to use it sparingly, becaue I like to emphasize the beat and find I'll overemphasize it if I use the 3-1 bowing.

I heard from a former student of Ken Kolodner that he uses 3-1 bowing alot. Here's a video of him playing Mike in the Wilderness with 3-1 bowing (which Salyer of course didn't ever do, but that's fine): youtu.be/EaWvL72mnic


Hey Jim, it was Dave Bing who used the term "Irish Lilt." It goes something like this:

[DD] U [DDD] U  [D | DD] U  [DDD]  U [D | etc... Brackets denote slurred notes done in one bow stroke. Each note is an eighth note in cut time. All three Ds in each bracket can either be eighth notes, or the last two can be a quarter note. You'll notice this figure goes across the bar line and gives a lilt (hence the name) with those quick, single-note up bows put between the slurred notes.  I used to use that bowing often (before I even realized it "had a name"), but I don't use it so much anymore, preferring  more of the Round Peak bowings mixed in with shuffle and saw stroke.  One thing, I will say, IMO, if used too much, that Irish Lilt gets a bit...cloying...or *too* bouncy (for lack of better words). I find it works better used now and then when, of course, the phrasing and character of the tune allows for it. You and I have had those discussions about bowings a lot, Jim, and you know I also think that altering too much of the rhythm/note values in a tune just to make it fit into a certain bowing pattern can also have a detrimental effect. There are times (and tunes) where these things work better than others. I always tell my students that bowings don't *create* your groove; they *assist* your groove. 

Jul 20, 2020 - 9:27:48 AM

11262 posts since 9/23/2009
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Speaking of ...all of the above...upsidedownness or down bow, up bow...3's...Georgia Shuffle, etc., here's an unusual case...Y'all here I'm sure probably know about this guy because he's been on youtube forever, teaching OT fiddle tunes from his OT area in California...sounds like there is a huge OT community out there.

Anyhow...I believe he might be classified as a downbower by some, because he does hit the main phrases with a down bow...(that's non in my definition, though, but then, who am I to say?????)...but...he actually uses mainly Georgia Shuffling to get into his groove...only he does it upsidedown...I mean, he's upbowing the Georgia Shuffle. I gotta say...I'm normally no fan at all of Georgia Shuffle, but I think this fellow here does a great job getting an OT groove with it...possibly because it IS upbowed????? I don't know why...but in my book he'd count as an upbower, even though he does hit the downbows when most people would expect, i believe..not 100% of the time, but enough, maybe.  Still, his groove is built on upbows...regardless of where else he is downbowing or upbowing, it's the groove that's upbowed.  I love his fiddling too.  He's my example of a time when I do like G. Shuffling.  He's also an example I think, more clear and easy to see example than others, of upbowing, maybe???????  Don't know.  I can remember the discussions on drop thumbing...lol...don't wanna go there.

youtube.com/watch?v=mskz3Odd_ow

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/20/2020 09:33:09

Jul 20, 2020 - 9:35:32 AM

4847 posts since 9/26/2008

He appears to be starting on an upbow...

Jul 20, 2020 - 3:21:05 PM
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1296 posts since 7/26/2015

Sometimes I wonder whether I'm considered an upbower or downbower. I remember Bill Birchfield using the following pattern a lot: [DD|D]UDUDUD|...etc., always starting with that long downbow. I would probably play that same pattern upside down, starting with a long upbow, but that's because I want to start that group of short strokes with a downbow:
[UU|U]DUDUDU|...etc.

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 07/20/2020 15:21:41

Jul 20, 2020 - 4:05:01 PM
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DougD

USA

9768 posts since 12/2/2007
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Peggy, I suspect that melody players, which Dwight is, consider "bum-diddy" descriptions to be somewhat simplistic, and inadequate to describe what they are trying to do. Same for Nashville shuffle fiddling or "boom chuck" guitar styles. All these instruments can combine rhythm and melody (and harmony) in various ways, and that combination is a big part of an individual style. If you play mostly for dances you might emphasize rhythm, but I think of Dwight as more of a "parlor player," more interested in the melody, like his mentors the Hammonses. When I played guitar with Highwoods I sometimes thought of my role as like the 'cello in a string quartet - playing countermelody lines to the fiddles and leading into the chord changes. Not always a need for "boom chuck." There was plenty of rhythm floating around in that band already!
I posted this video of JP Fraley in the "learning tunes" thread but I'll repeat it here in case you didn't see it. I think when you can see the bow tip he starts the B part once on a downbow, and the next time on an upbow. youtu.be/nYMLiC9wdAQ

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