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Jul 15, 2020 - 4:01:26 PM

1786 posts since 8/27/2008
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood

For ChickenMan. I won't absolutely guarantee this since I just did it and I haven't even tried to play it yet. But I will probably learn it.


Okay, I did some funny things in the B part the first time. Don't look at that. I shouldn't put up anything I've done like this so quickly. I won't do it again. For what it's worth this is based on the second go around of the tune. Here's the update.


 

Edited by - Brian Wood on 07/15/2020 16:01:52

Jul 15, 2020 - 4:22:12 PM
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2608 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by RichJ

Here's a question that came to mind while reading some of these comments. The desire to learn a new tune has been expressed by some folks as beginning when a tune "grabs" them. I sure can understand that because it usually is the thing that makes me want to learn something new. But, just what exactly is that "grab"? Is it the basic melody, or maybe key or mode of the tune or does it boil down to simply the way the tune is played? When I hear something I like I go to YouTube to see what's there. More times than not there are many uploads, sometimes a dozen of more versions of the tune,but only one or two I like well enough to learn from.


I didn't choose all the tunes I learned. I've learned a lot of tunes, not particularly because initial grab... but by need, or often simply product of playing with others; or some just pop into my head (from hearing enough), and I'll work out how to  play it.  Some still don't grab me in any great way, but most are still enjoyable; and some have grown on me.

But, just what exactly is that "grab"? Is it the basic melody, or maybe key or mode of the tune or does it boil down to simply the way the tune is played?

Those are all factors, and many more, especially often groove factor. It is interesting and complex, why do we like what we like...what are the aspects, elements.  Music Genome Project set to figure it out, (basis of Pandora to make predictive music suggestions). Turns out a combination of lot of aspects we think... some 450; not always how we think about it.

One aspect often for me... has to do with potential; how I like to play, jam, tunesmith, explore a tunes possibilities... so I like tunes that I think have potential;  leave room and/or offer lots of expressive possibilities of what I can do to a tune, twist and turn, push and pull, alter the feel; can change with context. Part is probably due to playing single tunes for many many many repetitions in jams and dances.

Jul 15, 2020 - 5:09:54 PM
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1786 posts since 8/27/2008
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quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder

So, what is my goal with using the recording? …to be able to play the tune exactly as it was recorded? Yes and no.

Yes, in that the “thing” that attracted me to the recording of that tune is the focus of my learning attention. I will give my effort to that task. But…

No, in that I know that I will never be able to reproduce anything anyone plays exactly. I not only accept that truth, I embrace it. I would prefer to be able to play endless variations of what I am learning from a source – a source that will never play any variations from what is recorded. I am confident that – given time and effort – I can produce a sound that will be “musically acceptable” as an approximate expression that satisfies the desire I had for learning the tune I heard.

 

Back to the original post. I agree completely. I would add to the "yes" column that recordings give me ways to play that I wouldn't do on my own. I love to learn a twist of melody notes in a tune by someone I admire. I think when I learn tunes in a group or any more general sense I miss those distinctions. I tend to play more linear lines that aren't as interesting.

Jul 15, 2020 - 5:15:59 PM
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5799 posts since 8/7/2009

Hey Brian… I’m sorry. I would like to make an effort to straighten this out please. My comments were only intended to assure you I wasn’t attacking you or the methods you choose to use when learning tunes. I didn’t want you to think I was on a mission to bash reading music. Nothing more.

It seemed to me that you challenged me directly in this topic - more than once. I tried to let you know, I understood what you were saying, and that I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with what you were saying. But I did feel compelled to answer your challenges. I tried to reply with logic and reasoning to explain why your challenges weren’t persuasive enough for me to change my mind. None of that makes anything you said wrong, or what I said wrong. As I said earlier – there is no right or wrong  involved with any of this (imo). Like you I was only sharing my perspective - and answering the challenge I heard. 

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
I’m just contributing my perspective.  Don’t know why you feel I’m defending reading music against something you said. In my case I do in fact spend time transcribing tunes and then learning the tunes from the transcript. That’s exactly how I learn tunes. I also share them online for others. I know most of you probably don’t do that. It’s all good, as they say.

Hmm… this makes me want to ask (on a personal level) is there anything I said that made you think – that I think - your method is “unauthentic”? What is authentic? I went back through my posts to find it. I will apologize if it is pointed out to me, because that is not something I would imagine myself thinking or saying. But… maybe… I did.

Anyway. As far as I am concerned, we are friends. I admire your skills and the ability to read and write musical notation. As I said earlier – if I am missing anything with the methods I use – it is not being able to take advantage of a larger selection of tunes to learn. I’ll only learn tunes that someone else has played. But I am ok with that.

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/15/2020 17:30:51

Jul 15, 2020 - 5:28:28 PM
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5799 posts since 8/7/2009

Hey Brian...  yes

Thanks.

Jul 15, 2020 - 6:16:59 PM
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5799 posts since 8/7/2009

quote:
Originally posted by RichJ

Here's a question that came to mind while reading some of these comments. The desire to learn a new tune has been expressed by some folks as beginning when a tune "grabs" them. I sure can understand that because it usually is the thing that makes me want to learn something new. But, just what exactly is that "grab"? Is it the basic melody, or maybe key or mode of the tune or does it boil down to simply the way the tune is played? When I hear something I like I go to YouTube to see what's there. More times than not there are many uploads, sometimes a dozen of more versions of the tune,but only one or two I like well enough to learn from.


Its "I want to be able to play that"  

It's not always the tune itself - its more the way a fiddler plays the tune. And that doesn't mean a that fiddler will play any other tunes in a way that will appeal to me. 

Sometimes -  its beyond what I can manage at the time. But I will take up the task. I know eventually...  One bite at a time...

But there are a few... I wonder if I will ever learn. And there are a few that surprised me with how quick I was able to pick them up.

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/15/2020 18:19:59

Jul 15, 2020 - 6:20:22 PM

4823 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood

For ChickenMan. I won't absolutely guarantee this since I just did it and I haven't even tried to play it yet. But I will probably learn it.


Okay, I did some funny things in the B part the first time. Don't look at that. I shouldn't put up anything I've done like this so quickly. I won't do it again. For what it's worth this is based on the second go around of the tune. Here's the update.

 


Looks pretty good. I like that you looked at the second time through. I find that to be a better representation of the rest of the recording. Most of the transcriptions I've seen don't capture much beyond the bare bones first measure he plays, using it over and over, and to me that is not how he plays it overall. 

Jul 15, 2020 - 8:17:24 PM
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1786 posts since 8/27/2008
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quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder

Hey Brian...  yes

Thanks.


Thank you, Tony. No ill will here. My comment about "inauthentic" was perhaps defensive and unnecessary to direct to you. It was directed at "all those people out there" who might think that of my methods. Imagine a smiley here, because I stubbornly refuse to actually use them, thinking everyone should always understand me completely. (Smily here too).

Jul 16, 2020 - 9:56 AM

DougD

USA

9762 posts since 12/2/2007
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Peggy - Looks like there's quite a bit of Roger Cooper on YouTube. In addition to being a really good fiddler he's a great source of stories about the older players he learned from, like Morris Allen, Jimmy Wheeler, and George Hawkins. He was especially close to Buddy Thomas. The first time I heard Roger I was playing with Lee Sexton snd I think his son Phil at a Christmas season event in Winchester. We were backstage tuning and talking when I suddenly thought I heard Buddy playing onstage. I knew he was no longer alive so I had to go take a look and it was Roger.
He's very modest and self effacing and for a long time didn't want to teach, but Michael Garvin got an apprenticeship with him, and here's a video from that (with Michael wearing his FHO T-shirt no less) youtu.be/KdBTgv7kPGs
And here's part of an article about him that actually discusses bowing. He says he's a downbower, but that people in that area prided themselves in being able to play in either direction, which is maybe what you've noticed:
fiddle.com/Articles.page?ArticleID=59650
BTW, your use of "hand pie" in your post, which I've never heard before, was the second time that day! The other was a cooking segment on a local news show

Jul 16, 2020 - 9:57:52 AM
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1786 posts since 8/27/2008
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quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
 

Looks pretty good. I like that you looked at the second time through. I find that to be a better representation of the rest of the recording. Most of the transcriptions I've seen don't capture much beyond the bare bones first measure he plays, using it over and over, and to me that is not how he plays it overall. 


I reworked the A part 2nd time through to accentuate the anticipated attack low A note that happens frequently in the tune. It's going on my web site now.

Jul 16, 2020 - 7:34:53 PM
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2039 posts since 10/22/2007
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Oy, went on a journey in old sold out Fiddler magazine articles. (thanks to the link above)
John Hartford artcles, namely. Wrote a tune while he was being interviewed. I miss that fellow terribly.

Jul 16, 2020 - 9:48:54 PM
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217 posts since 6/21/2012

I am currently learning (actually relearning) a hornpipe called Poll Ha'Penny. The opening phrase found it's way under my bow recently and I had to wrack my brain to remember what the tune was. Then I listened to a lot of different versions of it. As often is the case the versions were all different, except this time more so than usual. Then I read through all the settings posted at thesession, and it was confirmed; there are many ways to take this tune. It is wonderful/terrible in this regard. So many of the Cs can be C#s and vice versa. One phrase used either a b or f# in about a 50/50 split, and one version even had a g# thrown in for good measure, and god help me, I eventually found a second place to fit in another g#. While all of this makes great fun for endless variations playing solo, when and if the sessions resume, I will have to nail something down, and then if people ask me where I got my setting from, I will probably have to notate it myself and pass out copies. Sorry, what was the question again?

Jul 17, 2020 - 5:48:06 AM
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11216 posts since 9/23/2009

Thanks for the info, links and personal stories from your musical history, Doug. I think Pogo could explain the differences between upbowing and downbowing if he was here...but...as I see it...I'm thinking upbowing isn't the exact opposite of downbowing, but just a big reliance on upward jabs as the rhythmic groove begins to take over...I don't know though. I don't do it and can't seem to do it. I've heard and seen where I think people are doing it...and Dwight Diller said he did it. I'm all hung up on N. Shuffling as my fundamental groove thing I work from and jump in and out of, but I always feel the groove is setup with the jabs going downward, although it's hard to tell what you're doing once you get into the groove...if you try to analyze it...it disappears...lol...at least for me. Same with guitar picking...whenever I've tried to show it to someone who asked, I end up showing them something entirely different...well, but anyway...there is a different sound, whatever it is.

I wish you coulda been here for the hand pies...lol...they were good!  Frighteningly fattening, but good.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/17/2020 05:49:33

Jul 17, 2020 - 5:58:55 AM

8685 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by snakefinger

I am currently learning (actually relearning) a hornpipe called Poll Ha'Penny. The opening phrase found it's way under my bow recently and I had to wrack my brain to remember what the tune was. Then I listened to a lot of different versions of it. As often is the case the versions were all different, except this time more so than usual. Then I read through all the settings posted at thesession, and it was confirmed; there are many ways to take this tune. It is wonderful/terrible in this regard. So many of the Cs can be C#s and vice versa. One phrase used either a b or f# in about a 50/50 split, and one version even had a g# thrown in for good measure, and god help me, I eventually found a second place to fit in another g#. While all of this makes great fun for endless variations playing solo, when and if the sessions resume, I will have to nail something down, and then if people ask me where I got my setting from, I will probably have to notate it myself and pass out copies. Sorry, what was the question again?


I could have written your post!!!!  I go through the same thing.. It can be a curse being creative and jams can be frustrating in that often a tune must be 'nailed down'  so other musicians can play along.....Just one more reason I love busking alone (ok, Harry Hare doesn't like some of my renditions).. I'm free to  be a "TUNEWEAVER"..!!laugh

Jul 17, 2020 - 8:41:21 AM
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4823 posts since 9/26/2008

quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones

Oy, went on a journey in old sold out Fiddler magazine articles. (thanks to the link above)
John Hartford artcles, namely. Wrote a tune while he was being interviewed. I miss that fellow terribly.


John had a regular column for a stretch where he transcribed Ed Haley tunes pretty much note for note, resulting in some transcriptions being several pages long. 

Jul 17, 2020 - 8:44:25 AM
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8685 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones

Oy, went on a journey in old sold out Fiddler magazine articles. (thanks to the link above)
John Hartford artcles, namely. Wrote a tune while he was being interviewed. I miss that fellow terribly.


John had a regular column for a stretch where he transcribed Ed Haley tunes pretty much note for note, resulting in some transcriptions being several pages long. 


YES!!! When people swear by a particular transcription, they often forget that those transcriptions are usually just ONE time through.....Those old fiddlers  were more creative than the transcriptions show..

Jul 17, 2020 - 9:32:12 AM
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DougD

USA

9762 posts since 12/2/2007
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Especially Ed Haley.

Jul 17, 2020 - 10:31:45 AM
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gapbob

USA

705 posts since 4/20/2008

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
YES!!! When people swear by a particular transcription, they often forget that those transcriptions are usually just ONE time through.....Those old fiddlers  were more creative than the transcriptions show..

 


I think creativity has less to do with it than forgetfulness.  Now how did that part go?   Crap, I dunno, I'll just fill up the space.

Jul 17, 2020 - 10:48:54 AM
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8685 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
YES!!! When people swear by a particular transcription, they often forget that those transcriptions are usually just ONE time through.....Those old fiddlers  were more creative than the transcriptions show..

 


I think creativity has less to do with it than forgetfulness.  Now how did that part go?   Crap, I dunno, I'll just fill up the space.


Hey, Bob, Filling in spaces with Crap is something We here on the Hangout all excel at..

Jul 17, 2020 - 11:03:54 AM
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4823 posts since 9/26/2008

Ed Haley prided himself in being able to twist a tune up.

Jul 17, 2020 - 6:40:24 PM

2608 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
John had a regular column for a stretch where he transcribed Ed Haley tunes pretty much note for note, resulting in some transcriptions being several pages long. 

YES!!! When people swear by a particular transcription, they often forget that those transcriptions are usually just ONE time through.....Those old fiddlers  were more creative than the transcriptions show..


Creative? Twisting? Forgetful? Perhaps; or perhaps something else; another possibility.

The filter of stereotypical classical music model is idea of elements are fixed; memorized or read. Might include idea of variation, but typically also fairly fixed. Of course often the goal is very consistent performance every time. Not sure that should look at other's music with same filter. Might not be what's happening or goal in other's music.

Common in folk form... is more broken into 2 parts; that there are somewhat fixed consistent elements to the phrases. But then there are many elements that are not, and can be altered and around the fixed elements, gives many possibilities; can improvised on the fly. Not necessarily always thinking in terms of intent to be "creative"; or twisting the tune; variation, is just natural by-product of this to some degree.

As such might not have committed any complete detailed fixed version to memory, nor be important to them (as per goal of notational idea). But doesn't necessarily displays lack of memory. They have learned, (or memorized?) 2 different things; the basic tune (more fixed elements).  Then things, ideas, devices they found worked, often similar ideas from all sorts of other similar phrases; as well learned effect of those.

Of course, how much is fixed vs can be changed is individualistic; as does degree of and importance of consistent fixed performance. These different models and goals might play a role in how folks define "learning a tune"; and expectations (or struggles/frustration) of notation and/or transcriptions?

Jul 17, 2020 - 7:32:20 PM

1652 posts since 12/11/2008

Brian -- Not that it totally matters, but is your tune Old Horse & Buggy meant to be played in Cross? It seems particularly suited for it. I'll try it both ways.

Jul 17, 2020 - 8:03:52 PM
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2039 posts since 10/22/2007
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Hartford had the term "ironclad" for tunes like Billy in the Lowground, or Sally Goodin. Where the tune could be varied but still recognizable. Other tunes, if one changes a note or two it's either a different tune or it falls apart. I've run into hornpipes like the latter.

Jul 17, 2020 - 8:06:17 PM
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DougD

USA

9762 posts since 12/2/2007
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The Fiddlers Companion says its cross tuned, which seems right. The M-K Collection has "Horse and Buggy O" but from Hiram Stamper. Its also crosstuned, but a little "crookedy" compared to Art's version. Interesting.

Edited by - DougD on 07/17/2020 20:09:44

Jul 17, 2020 - 8:36:27 PM

1786 posts since 8/27/2008
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quote:
Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Brian -- Not that it totally matters, but is your tune Old Horse & Buggy meant to be played in Cross? It seems particularly suited for it. I'll try it both ways.


I’m not qualified to comment on that. I only play in standard tuning. I’ll give another listen with that in mind. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn Stamper sometimes used cross tuning.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 07/17/2020 20:37:58

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