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Jun 14, 2020 - 1:08:08 PM

cunparis

France

142 posts since 11/4/2012

Hi,

I'd like to have another go at learning backup fills around a singer. I'd like to know if you all know any songs that would be good for practicing. Where would you start? Songs that are relatively easy and slow.

Thanks

Jun 14, 2020 - 1:21:39 PM
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1774 posts since 12/11/2008

Any blues song will do wonders in getting your ear and fingers to invent riffs and fills. Play the One, the tonic. Play the Five the dominant. Play the all important Three, which, whether you choose the Major Third or Minor Third, you slide into. You can create entire solos out of simply repeating the One or the Three in every fill.

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 06/14/2020 13:23:23

Jun 14, 2020 - 1:36:48 PM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

As Ed says the blues is a good place to start. Think of call and response, the response being the fill.

Jun 14, 2020 - 4:48:06 PM
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2253 posts since 10/22/2007

Not to argue, but i would suggest knowing the 1, 4, and 5 chords. (Besides the 3 or minor 3) Double stops iow. But i don't know if playing or listening is more important? Like listening to old Hank Williams recordings. Or any old stuff with prominant fills. I suppose you would have to record your efforts, to be able to tell if the timing was adequate. One needs feedback. Maybe a band or combo will let you practice with them.

Jun 15, 2020 - 11:37:21 AM

cunparis

France

142 posts since 11/4/2012

quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones

Like listening to old Hank Williams recordings. Or any old stuff with prominant fills.


Hi,

This is actually why I started the thread, because when I searched for some songs they almost always have fills already.  I was hoping to find some good songs that didn't already have fills.

Maybe I'll just have to play over top of existing fills?

Thanks

Jun 15, 2020 - 12:16:39 PM
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DougD

USA

10033 posts since 12/2/2007
Online Now

Of course they have fills, if they're commercial ensemble recordings. Why not just copy the ones that are already there? That's a good way to learn.
Also you might find clips of singer/songwriters playing just guitar (James Taylor comes to mind, but it could be any genre) and add your own.

Edited by - DougD on 06/15/2020 12:18:00

Jun 15, 2020 - 2:41:20 PM

2253 posts since 10/22/2007

quote:
Originally posted by cunparis
quote:
Originally posted by farmerjones

Like listening to old Hank Williams recordings. Or any old stuff with prominant fills.


Hi,

This is actually why I started the thread, because when I searched for some songs they almost always have fills already.  I was hoping to find some good songs that didn't already have fills.

Maybe I'll just have to play over top of existing fills?

Thanks

 


Let me make another attempt at your original request. How about Your Cheatin' Heart, There Going Through What's Left of Me & You. Green, Green Grass of Home. The Storms of Life are Washing Me Away. Not nearly as fast as most Bluegrass. Then there are signature fills like Wagon Wheel, and Amarillo by Morning.

If you are working on this technique, I am assumeing you have somebody to play music with? Or you can play these songs on guitar and record them. (to play along with)  

Jun 16, 2020 - 1:44:31 PM

cunparis

France

142 posts since 11/4/2012

Let me make another attempt at your original request. How about Your Cheatin' Heart, There Going Through What's Left of Me & You. Green, Green Grass of Home. The Storms of Life are Washing Me Away. Not nearly as fast as most Bluegrass. Then there are signature fills like Wagon Wheel, and Amarillo by Morning.

If you are working on this technique, I am assumeing you have somebody to play music with? Or you can play these songs on guitar and record them. (to play along with)  


Hi, thanks for the suggestions.  The first version of Your Cheatin' Heart had some fills but I found one by Patsy Cline that does not.  Perfect!  I like this song and I'm already familiar with it.

I didn't find The Storms of Life and They're still going through, do you have more info or a link?

Green Green Grass is nice too.

Next step: Find some chords and strum & sing along (with baritone ukulele) to get to know the songs better, and then I'll have a go with the fiddle.

There is a weekly bluegrass jam near me.  I played with them several times but I was hooked on sheet music and totally lost, so I decided to come back after I got a bit better at accompaniment and playing by ear.  But I didn't have time to persue it, partly because my violin lessons were "classical" and I was struggling so they kept me busy.  I recently stopped my private lessons and decided now I'll just play for fun, without any pressure.  Lessons were a bit stressful for me, despite having good teachers, mostly because I am just not good at the violin and can't relax.  Anyway, I think if I can learn some accompaniment I can play with other people I know informally and maybe some day that bluegrass jam.

Jun 16, 2020 - 2:11:33 PM
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2253 posts since 10/22/2007

My mistake. The 1st tune is called Yard Sale. youtu.be/kF1CYC6L-2E
Storms of Life - youtu.be/UU5RlQ8_reM

Couple of real twangy tunes. But that's where either the steel guitar or the fiddle cries out. I could play either one with 3 chords. If you can play guitar or similar, then you can transpose the songs into easy keys and tempo as well. Best of Luck, FJ

Jun 23, 2020 - 8:19:44 AM
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4289 posts since 6/23/2007

If I were you MIchael, I would go to Youtube and check out "Patsy Cline". She sang some great slow songs. Here is a link to one -

youtu.be/iuZTk1hdpMs

Aug 7, 2020 - 3:05:12 PM

15 posts since 1/5/2018

Michael,
Here are some thoughts I use. I was taught to never play the same note as the vocalist. Either play a third below or a third above if playing slightly behind the actual vocal. A seventh note and sometimes a sixth note will work also. One aproach is to fill holes with a simple note or two. Another thought is to walk into the changing chord via a scale. Ex. A, B, C# to D if you are in A and going to the D Chord. Again, if would not play in unison with the vocalist. If the vocalist melody note was going to D in the Chord, I would play C#, D, E to F# which would be the third to the vocalist. In my experience, this works quite well.

Hope this helps,

Michael

Aug 7, 2020 - 3:41:57 PM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by MSmartt

Either play a third below or a third above if playing slightly behind the actual vocal.

Hope this helps,

Michael


I think you mean a 4th below. A 4th below is a 5th (but an octave lower). A 6th below would be a 3rd (an octave lower). A 3rd below would be a 6th which is the relative minor, not necessarily compatible.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 08/07/2020 15:42:41

Aug 7, 2020 - 4:56:47 PM

15 posts since 1/5/2018

You are correct Brian, typo. A four below. So I use the notes of the triad around the melody. I use the 6th at times. Creating a 6th chord, typically paired with the 5th.

Thanks for catching,

Michael

Aug 7, 2020 - 8:11:02 PM

1879 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by MSmartt

You are correct Brian, typo.



That's what I thought. For those who might be scratching their heads there is a simple trick to use to know what an interval is when inverted to an octave above or below: The total will be 9. A fifth above is a 4th below, etc.

Aug 7, 2020 - 9:01:21 PM

2262 posts since 8/23/2008

There are loads of 'backing tracks' sites to be found online, they are great for learning to hear the chord changes. I would begin with two chord songs/tunes then three, etc, include the common chord progressions and keys in particular genre, and don't forget the diatonic triads. Also, learn about 'melodic sequencing', very useful for creating ideas in the breaks.

Aug 7, 2020 - 9:46:56 PM
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15 posts since 1/5/2018

You also could search some karaoke tracks of particular songs of interest on youtube. Without the vocals, backup is much easier to hear.

Michael

Edited by - MSmartt on 08/07/2020 21:48:07

Aug 7, 2020 - 9:52:49 PM
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15 posts since 1/5/2018

Here is a Ray Price classic.

youtu.be/pm_A5Tumt9w

Fiddle is doing a nice job of staying off the vocal notes.

Michael

Aug 8, 2020 - 9:21:30 PM

2665 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by MSmartt

Michael,
Here are some thoughts I use. I was taught to never play the same note as the vocalist. Either play a third below or a third above if playing slightly behind the actual vocal. A seventh note and sometimes a sixth note will work also. One aproach is to fill holes with a simple note or two. Another thought is to walk into the changing chord via a scale. Ex. A, B, C# to D if you are in A and going to the D Chord. Again, if would not play in unison with the vocalist. If the vocalist melody note was going to D in the Chord, I would play C#, D, E to F# which would be the third to the vocalist. In my experience, this works quite well.

Hope this helps,

Michael


The OP was about doing "fills" - places in which the singer actually isn't singing, but between the melody phrases. Your comments are more to do with backup and/or harmony.

Per OP, it can be good to learn/practice backup, in context with fills, (alternating between), there are many types of backup. As far as what,  when singer sings... there are no hard fast rules about not playing unison, same note as singer, nor about thirds; those are just choices.  Just comes down to listening, and style; deciding what you want it to sound like.

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Wood
 A 3rd below would be a 6th which is the relative minor, not necessarily compatible.

Sixths are different than the relative minor... in backup (or harmony) can be quite useful color in some styles. As can many other non-triad tones... suspensions or extensions.

Aug 11, 2020 - 5:28:41 PM

GeoB

USA

23 posts since 7/22/2020

Leanne Rhimes 1st release Blue has some nice country swing on it.

Aug 11, 2020 - 6:59:24 PM

360 posts since 6/11/2019

quote:
Originally posted by GeoB

Leanne Rhimes 1st release Blue has some nice country swing on it.


We call that bird in your pic a "Chick-tuck-ee-tuck" around here.  Summer Tanager

Aug 11, 2020 - 7:17:56 PM

360 posts since 6/11/2019

Yes, 12-bar blues. That's what just about all Hank, Elvis, and everything in between is based off of. Chord progression: I.....I7..IV....I....V7.....I----then FILLER, etc, make up your own lyrics

repeat, then COME HOME LICK

focus on the flatted 3rd and 7th in a synchopated off-beat rhythm.

OFF SUBJECT:  I always enjoyed France, particularly, Paris west to Normandy peninsula. Trains, hotels, nice people.  I lament the barriers for a return. Cheers--beautiful country

Edited by - Flat_the_3rd_n7th on 08/11/2020 19:28:41

Aug 13, 2020 - 2:16:56 AM

GeoB

USA

23 posts since 7/22/2020

quote:
Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th
quote:
Originally posted by GeoB

Leanne Rhimes 1st release Blue has some nice country swing on it.


We call that bird in your pic a "Chick-tuck-ee-tuck" around here.  Summer Tanager


I would occasionally see these Summer Tanager pairs down at the reservoir, but this year I have a number of these in my cypress trees and around the birdbaths on my patio. They are quite adept at catching flying  insects.

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