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Height-adjustable carbon fiber soundposts

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Sep 20, 2019 - 2:05:22 AM

Jimbeaux

Germany

281 posts since 5/24/2016

I think these are more expensive than what most people are willing to spend for a sound post, but isn't the technology interesting?

I can't imagine that it would carry sound as well as wood, but who knows?

Thought you all might find them interesting at very least.

https://youtu.be/pDC9olvXT_Q 

Edited by - Jimbeaux on 09/20/2019 02:07:19

Sep 20, 2019 - 5:15:59 AM

Jimbeaux

Germany

281 posts since 5/24/2016

Maybe they would be useful as a tool for luthiers to determine the optimal size and position, and then swap them out with a wooden one.

Edited by - Jimbeaux on 09/20/2019 05:16:24

Sep 20, 2019 - 5:30:10 AM

kjb

USA

663 posts since 6/8/2013

like fiber finger boards , did not catch on because you cant shape them like wood I think

Sep 20, 2019 - 5:39:51 AM
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Players Union Member

carlb

USA

2157 posts since 2/2/2008

My luthier tried it in a cello. The instrument was louder then with a conventional post. He says the mystique is gone. Some of you may be able to see this link
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2718986031465208&set=a.866273573403139&type=3&theater

Sep 20, 2019 - 9:01:11 AM

gapbob

USA

623 posts since 4/20/2008

The ball socket top and bottom defeat the purpose of the sound post. Very bad idea.

Sep 21, 2019 - 2:18:03 PM

442 posts since 6/26/2007

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob

The ball socket top and bottom defeat the purpose of the sound post.


How?

Sep 21, 2019 - 3:51:57 PM

gapbob

USA

623 posts since 4/20/2008

The normal operation of a soundpost is to take the rotation of the top of the violin and transmit its energy to the back, so if you have this ball and socket, it takes away that tilt transfer to the back, all it does is move the back up and down, it does not tilt the back.

I have tried to make a drawing (should have done it by hand, in afterthought) showing this:

https://gapbob.net/soundpost.jpeg

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Gellert
quote:
Originally posted by gapbob

The ball socket top and bottom defeat the purpose of the sound post.


How?


Sep 21, 2019 - 6:20:11 PM

gapbob

USA

623 posts since 4/20/2008

Note that I am not sure exactly just how it tilts the back, I only know that it does. The actual tilt would be dependent on how much give the soundpost has (note that the picture is way out of scale, showing too much arching in the soundpost, etc.)

Sep 21, 2019 - 6:36:34 PM

227 posts since 1/5/2009

One of the main problems with the adjustable sound post made from carbon fiber is that the material does not transmit the vibrations the same as wood. Second is that the rounded balls on the end cause slight indentations between the grain of the top plate. This in turn makes it difficult to adjust and provides a weak spot for a crack to develop. This is one reason the wood sound post is positioned with cross grain (90*angle) to the top plate. Reducing the risk of a crack and distributing the pressure evenly on the top and back plate.

Sep 21, 2019 - 8:50:20 PM

442 posts since 6/26/2007

quote:
Originally posted by gapbob

The normal operation of a soundpost is to take the rotation of the top of the violin and transmit its energy to the back, so if you have this ball and socket, it takes away that tilt transfer to the back, all it does is move the back up and down, it does not tilt the back.

I have tried to make a drawing (should have done it by hand, in afterthought) showing this:

https://gapbob.net/soundpost.jpeg

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Gellert
quote:
Originally posted by gapbob

The ball socket top and bottom defeat the purpose of the sound post.


How?


Makes sense, but it seems to me that with the soundpost held between the back and belly, friction would make those ball joints effectively immobile.   Within the limited range of motion it's subjected to in playing, I'd expect that one to behave more or less like an unjointed solid piece of whatever composite it's made of (unless the joints are deliberately greased). 

Just my intuitive response.  Do set me straight if I've missed something...


Sep 21, 2019 - 8:52:22 PM

gapbob

USA

623 posts since 4/20/2008

Maybe so, just seems wrong to me. Shrug

Sep 22, 2019 - 6:39:26 AM
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1612 posts since 10/22/2007

Better is the sworn enemy of good enough. There are too many other factors that add up to a complete and optimized violin. Then to top it off, the violin itself is but a 90th of the total package that is the violinist or fiddler. Of course my opinion only

Sep 23, 2019 - 6:08:47 AM
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RobBob

USA

2644 posts since 6/26/2007

This being apropos of not much here. I had a friend who bought an Amati copy at a yard sale for 4 or 6 bucks. It had a dowel in it for a sound post. We cut a new sound post and put it in the fiddle. It lost a lot of its power and voice. So we put the dowel back in. Fiddles are sometimes like people. Things work with some that should not visa versa. Carbon fiber has its place but this application may need much more research before becoming widely accepted.

Sep 23, 2019 - 1:22:46 PM
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Players Union Member

boxbow

USA

2401 posts since 2/3/2011

None of my fiddles merit carbon fiber. What next? Hemp?

Sep 28, 2019 - 3:20:09 PM
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Jimbeaux

Germany

281 posts since 5/24/2016

I still think that it could be a useful tool for checking the needed size and then making a wooden post based on the measurement.

Oct 12, 2019 - 12:07:01 PM

7615 posts since 3/19/2009

It is common for people to resist new things.. Look at carbon Fiber bows..Getting popular.. !!!...I'd like to see (probably already is one somewhere), an adjustable LENGTH post as a TOOL that can be easily moved from place to place to help find the ideal spot for the real post.. Just because a fitted post sounds good in spot A, does not mean that somewhere, a millimeter in any of multiple directions , it wouldn't sound better. I'd guess it is virtually impossible to check more than just a few locations... Of course, how can many places be tested without something extremely versatile.. Thoughts?? (I'm NO luthier..just curious)

Oct 12, 2019 - 12:25:08 PM

227 posts since 1/5/2009

Lee, I kinda understand what you are asking. Using the ACFSP would allow you to find a good spot. The other things that the sound post does also need to be taken into account. The density of the SP will affect the tone as will the position. The time required to find the right spot with the carbon fiber sound post, then to make and fit a sound post with the correct density takes time. There are currently measuring tools on the market that do this for you.

IMHO the carbon fiber sound post is not a good choice due to its limitations. One, the non flexibility can cause damage to the top plate causing an expensive repair. The carbon fiber density is not adjustable ( you cannot remove material without ruining it). Whereas a wood sound post can be tuned to benefit the tone production.

Sound post material is not expensive, the carbon fiber is. So now it comes down to cost. Also what the customer pays needs to be taken into account.

There are more that I have not thought about, but I am sure someone else will comment.

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