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Sheet music, bowing indicated for Everywhichway fiddling

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Aug 16, 2019 - 12:17:26 PM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ShawnCraver

I had the same exchange with pogo... I don't think any one ever said there is no time and place for patterns. Or no value. It's important to realize that discussion of non patterned approaches or traditional approaches to fiddling are not attacks against the pattern method. Seems pogo set up "Everywhichway" as the antitheses to pattern bowing, which is an example of his own creation of terms,rules, and limitations.


Thanks.. Personally I don't feel an attack coming.. I'm the OP person!!.. I'm ready, willing, and able to tackle this anywhichway thingy.. as soon as I get some good examples of it..On paper..!  Maybe we need someone to transcribe some of Tony's music...'Con bowing.'

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/16/2019 12:19:06

Aug 16, 2019 - 12:30:40 PM
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7683 posts since 3/19/2009

Most of those bowing threads were Soooo, beyond me that frankly, I'd stop reading them about two paragraphs in...
Way too many words and way too few audio examples..

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/16/2019 12:31:37

Aug 16, 2019 - 6:41:53 PM
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10362 posts since 9/23/2009

The more I get to know of fiddling, the harder it becomes to discuss bowing. I started wondering a few years back, and wonder even more now, if Nashville Shuffle is the mother of all bowing...and if all the other patterns are spinoffs, creating different punctuation, so to speak, for the rhythm within the same 8-beat cycle as the Nashville Shuffle would fill up...and if these other analyzed and named patterns, plus whatever else somebody does with their bow within 8-beat cycles throughout the tune, named or unnamed, analyzed or not, are just a jump-off point to keep things interesting while the ghost of Nashville Shuffle runs true behind the sounds of the tune being played. In other words...learn Nashville Shuffle...you will eventually morph it into other analyzed patterns, analyzed by analytical minds, or morph it into something interesting to fill up 8-beat cycles, while remaining true to the rhythmic feel of the Nashville Shuffle...returning to it here and there, or maybe not, but staying true to its feel anyway...that's just how I see it at this point in my own amateur, solitary fumblings on the fiddle.  I sure miss Pogo's discussions here, and I learned a lot from him.  But I've fiddled around a lot and learned a lot on my own too...not sure if I wouldn't gone into my own direction of self-discovery without having particpated in and just read Pogo's discussions, plus the views of the opposite camp (Tony Elder being the main guy!) going back and forth.  For me it was all very educational.  But I morphed and my bowing morphed into its own thing, I believe...good or bad I don't kinow...I am never ever around any other fiddlers or musicians.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/16/2019 18:45:20

Aug 17, 2019 - 7:53:28 AM
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5681 posts since 8/7/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ShawnCraver

I had the same exchange with pogo... I don't think any one ever said there is no time and place for patterns. Or no value. It's important to realize that discussion of non patterned approaches or traditional approaches to fiddling are not attacks against the pattern method. Seems pogo set up "Everywhichway" as the antitheses to pattern bowing, which is an example of his own creation of terms,rules, and limitations.


Exactly.

I was never able to find where teaching "bowing patterns" (as a separate disciple) was part of an old time tradition. I see it as a contemporary idea developed as teaching tool. It can be helpful, and it can help speed up the learning process for some things. But they do not define or dictate how a fiddle tune has to be played in order to sound old time. There is no guarantee that learning bowing patterns will make you will sound like an old time fiddler.

There is more to it than that.

Aug 17, 2019 - 9:04:39 AM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

People always point to Brad Leftwich as the old time bowing pattern expert...and I think he sounds great, but to my ear, he's not that Old Timey sounding, good fiddler, but not old timey sounding to my ear.

Aug 18, 2019 - 4:21:29 PM
Players Union Member

boxbow

USA

2410 posts since 2/3/2011

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by ShawnCraver

I had the same exchange with pogo... I don't think any one ever said there is no time and place for patterns. Or no value. It's important to realize that discussion of non patterned approaches or traditional approaches to fiddling are not attacks against the pattern method. Seems pogo set up "Everywhichway" as the antitheses to pattern bowing, which is an example of his own creation of terms,rules, and limitations.


Thanks.. Personally I don't feel an attack coming.. I'm the OP person!!.. I'm ready, willing, and able to tackle this anywhichway thingy.. as soon as I get some good examples of it..On paper..!  Maybe we need someone to transcribe some of Tony's music...'Con bowing.'

 


I'm hoping your request for anywhichway bowing examples on paper is also tongue in cheek.  Mostly, on tunes I know well, I'll be on the lookout for certain notes or passages that I want a specific up- or down-bow, having determined that they best define the tune that way.  The rest is just playing the tune with the bowing that makes the sounds match what I'm chasing madly through my head.  The next time through might have changes in bowing if the chase dodges among the trees differently.  Sometimes it's significant enough to vary the tune a little. 

Aug 19, 2019 - 12:01:08 AM

1229 posts since 4/6/2014

Most music notation written out for specifically for violin/fiddle is sort of written out for AWWB. The "Suggested" up and down bowing signs are there, and the phrasing marks are often there too.

Aug 19, 2019 - 5:54:18 AM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009

Boxbow, I was HALF tongue in cheek!!! Any sheet music that has no bowing indicated could be played anyway the musician thinks best..so in a sense, that would be 'anywhichway'...When I play, I can vary bowing however I want, but I'd never call it 'anywhichway'... My variations, while seeming to be random are anything but random. And yet they are also not just patterns..!! So the idea to me, is that it is not just patterns vs anywhichway... I find the term anywhichway to be confusing and the word does not lend itself to smooth dialog about bowing.. Just my opinion..Having said that, calling someone a 'pattern bower' is not helpful either...

Aug 24, 2019 - 9:45:41 AM
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146 posts since 1/3/2019

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

People always point to Brad Leftwich as the old time bowing pattern expert...and I think he sounds great, but to my ear, he's not that Old Timey sounding, good fiddler, but not old timey sounding to my ear.


He plays one of the best Glory in the meeting Houses's I've ever heard. Nice fiddling here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcy3gi1ZK-A

Aug 24, 2019 - 11:57:37 AM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

Yes, he is really a fine fiddler. Sounds more Celtic-oriented to me than OT...not really Celtic, I mean it's just not the most OT sound I've heard. Don't get me wrong, I'm not cutting him down...he's another universe or two away from where I'll ever get to be in my playing...I'm just saying from the previous bowing discussion...i.e., he has the licks...he's studied them from the old timers and taught the licks, but seems to me there's something more to OT fiddling than being an expert on the licks...just from my own experience...fiddling I've heard to compare with. He is definitely great and I admire and appreciate what he can do, and how in the world he ever managed to analyze intricate and tricky bowing patterns...etc., beyond me, for sure. But, contribuitng to the bowing discussion above, I was saying as great a fiddler as he is and as knowledgeable about the constituent licks used by ot old folk fiddlers from the past...he doesn't necessarily sound so OT to me...just my opinion...i.e., something more than just bowing patterns involved, I think. I won't ever say he's not one of the great fiddlers of our time...don't know if I'm getting my point across very well...always difficult to say exactly what ya mean on a message board...lol...for me anyhow. Thanks for sharing the link.

Aug 24, 2019 - 12:01:15 PM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

I fear this could go into the direction of the drop-thumb thread that went nuts on BHO several years ago...Doc Watson vs. drop thumb. I held onto the notion that as great as Doc Watson was, he could not drop thumb...I'm saying something similar about BL...he can apply the bowing that he so brilliantly figured out and analyzed, but there's something else involed. And what Doc Watson plays is great, so is Brad Leftwich...but...well I'll stop there...lol.

Aug 24, 2019 - 12:17:37 PM
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7683 posts since 3/19/2009

My opinion is that the ability to change bowing 'on the fly' is important...change things but do the changes well.. use the tricks, drones, shuffle, rocking etc..but do so systematically (?)... not haphazard..

Aug 24, 2019 - 12:31:13 PM
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10362 posts since 9/23/2009

Good point...I used to think it wasn't important to be able to go "upsidedown"  in certain situations from how you did something previously, but later changed my mind...lol. Of course, I'm just an amateur back porch fiddler who really knows nothing, so I shouldn't be so opinionated...lol. I just am...one big mess of opinions, but at least I'm willing to change my mind when I feel it's time to.  Except, to me, anybody who knows drop thumbing oughta know Doc Watson didn't do it...he imitated the sound, which was probably a lot more complicated than actual drop thumbing, but I've never heard him actually drop thumb...so it'd be hard for me to change my mind about that unless some audio or video surfaced with him actually drop thumbing.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/24/2019 12:34:39

Aug 24, 2019 - 12:34:22 PM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Good point...I used to think it wasn't important to be able to go "upsidedown" from how you did something previously, but later changed my mind...lol. Of course, I'm just an amateur back porch fiddler who really knows nothing, so I shouldn't be so opinionated...lol. I just am...one big mess of opinions, but at least I'm willing to change my mind when I feel it's time to.


Think of yourself as a "Know-it-all", who knows one thing that most other know-it-alls Don't Know.. YOU know that you might be Wrong ( occasionally, that is wink).

Aug 24, 2019 - 12:35:51 PM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

Yeah...that's it! Hey, you quoted me before I got to make an important, qualifying edit...lol. That'll show me to proof read BEFORE, not after posting!!!

Aug 24, 2019 - 12:36:52 PM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

I think since I made it this far in life without proof reading, there's really no hope I'll ever do that.

Aug 30, 2019 - 8:22:32 AM
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146 posts since 1/3/2019

Hmmm.... It's a bit difficult for me to think of Leftwich outside the label of old time.

Aug 30, 2019 - 10:27:57 AM
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DougD

USA

9266 posts since 12/2/2007

Peggy, this video seems seems suited to answer your question about Doc's banjo style (and maybe it was meant to) In it he descrbes how he found dropping his thumb awkward (I did too) but then he is clearly shown using the technique: youtu.be/XI1Z4rFcU14 Walt Koken (who showed me how to play clawhammer) once told me it made sense to split the noting work between both hands (i.e. using hammer ons and pulloffs) just like Doc.
Funny, I always thought of Doc as an uppicker, and in the trailer for that banjo series he says that's how he used to play.
I had to think about this some years ago when I finally got to play with Doc and Clint Howard at Merlefest. After the show people gathered around to have their picture taken with Doc, but then they sort of melted away and I ended up walking with him to the pickup vehicle. I thought it might be the last time I would see him, and was trying to figure out how to tell him how much his music had meant to me (without drooling on my shoes) when he surprised me by asking "Where'd you learn to play the banjo like that?" I thought for a minute and realized it wasn't from listening to his records, since we didn't play at all alike. Oh well - so much for easy flattering answers!


Aug 30, 2019 - 7:24:08 PM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

I think of drop thumbing as a situation where you keep the rhythm of snagging the fifth string with your thumb, and staying true to the fifth string rhythm, you allow the thumb to snag either the second or third string in the same rhythm, when it would normally have snagged the fifth string...all without breaking that pattern. You don't do it with the bum diddy rhythm, but with double thumbing rhythms...and that just kinda slams out that rhythm effect while also catching a different note.  Not plucking any strings with the thumb, but just a snagging of the double thumbing sound except allowing that thumb to drop down to other strings rather than the fifth string.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/30/2019 19:26:51

Aug 30, 2019 - 7:33:03 PM

10362 posts since 9/23/2009

Seems one way for me to get into hot water is to discuss banjo playin'! Lol...so I better just leave it at that. Doug it's so cool you could be around Doc Watson. I think he is an up-picker a lot on banjo, isn't he, and also down picker too. He just did all kinds of good stuff.
I got to meet him once, the one and only time he came to this area and my daughter bought me a ticket for Mother's Day...then she grabbed me and pulled me to his tent after the concert...I felt stupid, but he was nice...lol. I didn't kinow what to say to him...if I coulda been honest I woulda just drooled on my feet...but I told him I'd learned a lot of stuff by listening to him my whole life. He posed for a picture...my husband took one of him and me and my daughter, all arm-in-arm...and my face was like so red I looked really stupid...my eyeballs were popping out too...I turned into an idiot...well, that's not much of a turn for me, but I was pretty overwhelmed to see Doc Watson there...live...and to be in the tent with him while he was putting his guitar away.

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