Banjo Hangout Logo
Banjo Hangout Logo

Premier Sponsors

49
Fiddle Lovers Online


Sheet music, bowing indicated for Everywhichway fiddling

Want to hide these Google ads? Join the Players Union!

Page: 1  2   Last Page (2) 

Jul 22, 2019 - 7:05:07 PM
7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

Tony.. this might up your alley.. I wasn't able to join the bowing topics a few years ago when Pogo (rip) and you discussed it so much.. I know a lot about patterns but I've Never seen sheet music that could demonstrate how my bow should be used for this Everywhichway thingy.. Can you or anyone else point me to some??

Jul 23, 2019 - 8:56:33 AM

2356 posts since 9/13/2009

I never quite understood what it was; and seemed to try to coin a term for something they didn't understand how others approach bowing.

But what might have meant and seemed to first describe -  was some perception to flail the bow around randomly; lack of bow control, without awareness or concern for beat, rhythm, accent, flow, phrasing... (also seemed to describe sloppy poor timing). IOW just bad playing; and yes makes no sense.

------------

But possibly might be what was meant was this other (not prescribed pattern based) way of approaching bowing; as far as just directionality instructions;

Start with the first note... the bow going down;... or up... whichever makes sense to the individual and will work for the music. *

The next either continues in same direction, (slurs, pulses);  or reverses direction,  whichever makes sense, works in context for the beat, rhythm, accent, groove, phrasing and flow of music. If it feels like it is clunky, or get right feel, try the opposite. 

The next either continues in same direction, (slurs, pulses);  or reverses direction,  whichever makes sense, works in context for the beat, rhythm, accent, groove, phrasing and flow of music. If it feels like it is clunky, or get right feel, try the opposite. 

*in working on bowing, rhythm, flow, phrasing, might have to back up a little bit and change a previous bow; possibly back to the first.

The next... well it more or less continues that scheme... With this you can come up  with many longer combinations downs and ups  (though typically not have more than 2 or 3 notes in one bow). These theoretically can vary next time thru the tune. But will likely follow same preferences and overall bowing for that individual and tune.

As far as sheet music or demonstration. - If you wrote the bow changes down... or watched, or just listen...  I don't know that it could be much differentiated from some folks bowing pattern approach; that is they would perceived various combinations of pattern components. (as pogo seemed to do)

Jul 23, 2019 - 9:06:44 AM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

As I mentioned about one of Tony's comments.. Sounds like just playing variations..maybe even a little different each time through.. I'm a pattern bower.. but I also am a variation bower...I never did fully understand it either..

Jul 23, 2019 - 9:52:53 AM
likes this

4284 posts since 9/26/2008
Online Now

Though I use some patterns once in a while, mostly I start on a down bow, do whatever and try to end on a up bow. To be honest, there is little or no conscious effort to do this anymore and little effort was needed to make that a habit. A few tunes really like me to start with an up bow and end with a down, so I occasionally try that with a tune that isn't flowing like I like.

Jul 23, 2019 - 9:58:25 AM
likes this

4284 posts since 9/26/2008
Online Now

As far as sheet music, I might have some from one of Brad Leftwich's DVD set lessons that has the pattern written in. I'll look when I get home and send you a photo of it, or I'll bring it to Clifftop.

Jul 23, 2019 - 2:30:14 PM
like this
Players Union Member

boxbow

USA

2410 posts since 2/3/2011

I always took "anywhichway" to be tongue-in-cheek. I also thought it wasn't a bad description of my bowing because patterns as they were so painstakingly described here were nonsensical to me. I was struggling to reduce over-control. My brain seems to lack sufficient side-channels or something. My bow control is better now, so I'm starting to work on one of those shuffle things, and no, I wouldn't name it if I could.

Jul 28, 2019 - 7:16:29 PM

1430 posts since 5/13/2008

Yes. Boxbow, yes.     

Edited by - fiddlerjoebob on 07/28/2019 19:17:46

Jul 31, 2019 - 5:14:08 PM
like this

bsed

USA

3985 posts since 6/23/2007

Would you saw stroke your way through an entire tune?

Would you Nashville shuffle your way through an entire tune?

Would you Ga Shuffle your way through an entire tune?

Would you double shuffle your way through an entire tune...... ?

I hope everybody answered NO to all these questions. Actually, you ought to use a variety of bowing patterns and riffs and other bowing strategies (e.g. slurred OR unslurred 16th/8th note or 8th/16th note combinations, etc.). 

You should listen to the rhythm of a sound recording, and figure out what bowing will get you there. It's not so hard to do for someone who has a few years or more of experience.

I know there are a lot of people who are dependent on reading dots. Let me say this clearly: It's OK if you need to do that. But try to work away from it by memorizing (at first) a tune, and then putting your own spin on it. How to shed the dots? That leads me to give you the most important piece of advice I was ever given:
IF YOU CAN SING IT, YOU CAN PLAY IT.

Edited by - bsed on 07/31/2019 17:15:58

Aug 3, 2019 - 6:06 AM
like this

5681 posts since 8/7/2009

Great points made here. I would like to just explain what my biggest objection with what my friend Pogo wanted us to believe.

I have never been against "bowing patterns". In fact, by my definition, I use patterns all the time. What I don't do is practice pre--described bowing patterns (with their own names) as a separate exercise / discipline. 

IIRC, Pogo's idea was to practice them, like you would scales. And I understand that - and would quickly say that if a person feels the need to approach things that way - I say go for it.

The real rub was the suggestion that his method was the traditional way to learn how to play "old time", and without learning to play this way - you would never be able to sound like an old time fiddler.

So, in his eyes, I was an "anywhichway" fiddler, because my playing wasn't the result of a disciplined effort to play using these predescribed patterns. And therefore, I would never really sound like an old time fiddler (or at least never realize my real potential).

I argued against those notions.

I hope I didn't mis-represent Michael's position. I went to great lengths to make sure I understood his talking points. He was very dogmatic about it.

Let me be quick to say that Pogo and I went the extra mile to be friends even though we dis-agreed over this issue. He was a good, smart, and honest person.

Aug 3, 2019 - 10:13:13 AM
likes this

364 posts since 8/10/2017

I have learned (still learning) to play old-time music in the presence of old-time musicians, without lessons, in real-time and at full speed during each weekly jam session. I literally learned tunes one note at a time. I never looked at sheet music and somewhat regrettably I never took any formal lessons (although way before I ever showed up to the jam I took a class at adult education where there really wasn't much in the way teaching.)

I tried to get people to help me, maybe give me some tips or show me how to do things but nobody would. They would always say just keep scratching away at it, you'll get it. I guess I've been surrounded by the "everywhichway" advocates all my fiddling career.

I observed everyone as they played and I noticed they all did things differently. One lady would put a lot of flair and fancy stuff into the left hand and play a lot of double-stops and that's how she got her sound. Another lady seemed like an expert at shuffling and getting the bowing just right. I couldn't tell what she was doing, though. I can't tell what anybody is doing, honestly. I can't reproduce anybody's technique.

One man in our jam has really good rhythm and drive. He told me his secret was to leave most of the notes out. But I think his secret was also his bowing. If only I could figure out what he was doing...

Another man I admired had expert bowing that seemed kind of ritualized. You hear it and you know it is him. He also had a style of playing something sorta close to the tune, all the chord changes are in the right place but maybe the melody is his own, but enough of the generally agreed-upon melody remained that you knew exactly what it was. He was the most adamantly against learning any sort of bowing patterns to the point of grumbling at workshops about the whole "up-down up-down" instructions the presenter would give. He hated that, said it was absolutely wrong.

Another lady from the Irish session I went to long before I tried to play the fiddle had a really distinctive sound that she made with a heavy back-beat. I always thought if I could learn to play the fiddle that's what I wanted to sound like and have struggled for a decade and a half to figure it out. I do manage at times to do it, but I can't seem to figure out how she does it so consistently. I get tangled up.

I have been attending the Irish session again lately, now with a fiddle instead of a flute, and trying once again to learn at full speed in real time. I think it sort of okay to learn this way because even though I flail miserably I end up trying different things on the fly in order to keep up. Meanwhile, the tunes get inside me, I try them at home slower, I crash and burn over the bowing and force myself to try things I've never done before to make it sound right or at least better than a car crash. I'm figuring out a lot of new stuff.

All this is what I interpret you to mean by everywhichway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Aug 3, 2019 - 12:19:27 PM

1159 posts since 7/26/2015

Here's my philosophy. I may be wrong: It's not about pattern bowing as much as selling certain rhythms in the music. The bow is just a tool and the pattern is just a guide. At the end of the day, it's the sound that matters. That said, I still enjoy looking for bowing patterns in people's playing. Here's some of my biggest heroes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhtl3uGcL-k

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 08/03/2019 12:26:00

Aug 3, 2019 - 12:48:02 PM
like this

5681 posts since 8/7/2009

The term being used at the time was "anywhichway". And it was used (as suggested above) tongue-in-cheek. Pogo (Michael Springer) coined the phrase to create a classification for those old time fiddlers who do not study or use "traditional bowing patterns" when they played tunes. At best, it would a term that represents a fiddler who wants to work everything out for themselves - including the way they used the bow. 

At worst, it could be used in a derogatory way to represent an old time fiddler who recognizes the need for learning traditional bowing patterns when playing old time music, but is too lazy to put forth the effort. 

Anywhichway is not a very accurate description, and Pogo admitted that as well. But he was never satisfied with any other term - so it stuck - because he wouldn't use anything else.

The term was usually opposed because it implies that no thought is being given to the way the bow is going to be handled when playing any particular tune. For the greater majority of old time fiddlers, I would say that nothing could be further from the truth. A great deal of thought is usually put into how a tune is going to be be played. But every tune is different, so no single prescribed bowing pattern will always work all the way through any tune  (and the tune still sound recognizable). Pogo would be quick to say that we could mix and match to what is needed (doesn't that lean in the direction of "anywhichway"?)

And there is where Pogo and I would sometimes agree. Those bowing patterns with names are common and are in a great number of tunes (most within the phrases of tunes) - easy to recognize, and most are not that difficult to master. What does become difficult is when you try to force yourself to use a certain pattern when it doesn't work in the tune. Nothing old time about that.

I'm like most here, I play what I hear. And sometimes I will recognize that it is a pattern that Pogo said I should practice. And when I play that tune - I am practicing that pattern.

But Pogo's responses would make you think. There was always an element of truth to what he would say, as long as it wasn't taken to the extreme (imo).

Aug 3, 2019 - 1:04:11 PM

1229 posts since 4/6/2014

IMO with fiddle, it doesn't matter which way your bow is going, you just have to get your rhythmic intensions across to other folk. The real problem is having those rhythms in your head beforehand, and while you play, and having the dexterity to execute them. Up, Down, Pulse, Triplet, On the beat , Off the beat, Syncopation, etc......Nobody thinks about the emphasis in a sentence until they are actually saying it, (Well maybe a few milliseconds before?). i think that is how natural rhythmic bowing happens. i try and think of my bow as a drumstick sometimes (for percussive playing), and sometimes i try to think of it as my breath as i am singing.

Aug 3, 2019 - 1:32:07 PM

1229 posts since 4/6/2014

Of course everyone will have their predilections

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/03/2019 13:33:02

Aug 3, 2019 - 4:06:57 PM
like this

1629 posts since 10/22/2007

Remember John Hartford said, "if you can play a tune to suit yourself, then you're as good as anybody else."

Aug 3, 2019 - 5:19:47 PM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

quote:
Originally posted by soppinthegravy

Here's my philosophy. I may be wrong: It's not about pattern bowing as much as selling certain rhythms in the music. The bow is just a tool and the pattern is just a guide. At the end of the day, it's the sound that matters. That said, I still enjoy looking for bowing patterns in people's playing. Here's some of my biggest heroes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhtl3uGcL-k


I like these comments.. Just this morning as we were having coffee and were about to pack up, a cello player who played professionally for 40 years came by and asked me to show him how fiddle bowing could apply to the cello for old time music.. You'd think he would have  seen it all but his eyes lit up when I told him that the rhythm starts in his BODY, extends to his bow and  then to the strings.. Yes, I showed him patterns and we  played Sara Armstrong with several strong patterns, BUT, the rhythm was the main thing that he picked up on..  I also demonstrated Sail Away Ladies in AEae tuning using just two fingers on my left hand but making Tons of sound using rhythmic bowing on drones and double stops.. I'll be  commenting on this later.. BTW, I looked out for you and did not see you .. !!! 

Aug 4, 2019 - 12:53:11 PM

1159 posts since 7/26/2015

I didn't make it this year, but the guy who won 4th in fiddle is from my area.
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by soppinthegravy

Here's my philosophy. I may be wrong: It's not about pattern bowing as much as selling certain rhythms in the music. The bow is just a tool and the pattern is just a guide. At the end of the day, it's the sound that matters. That said, I still enjoy looking for bowing patterns in people's playing. Here's some of my biggest heroes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhtl3uGcL-k


I like these comments.. Just this morning as we were having coffee and were about to pack up, a cello player who played professionally for 40 years came by and asked me to show him how fiddle bowing could apply to the cello for old time music.. You'd think he would have  seen it all but his eyes lit up when I told him that the rhythm starts in his BODY, extends to his bow and  then to the strings.. Yes, I showed him patterns and we  played Sara Armstrong with several strong patterns, BUT, the rhythm was the main thing that he picked up on..  I also demonstrated Sail Away Ladies in AEae tuning using just two fingers on my left hand but making Tons of sound using rhythmic bowing on drones and double stops.. I'll be  commenting on this later.. BTW, I looked out for you and did not see you .. !!! 


Aug 4, 2019 - 12:56:30 PM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

Hmmm.. Fourth.. was that Derryberry? who played Catlettsburg? IF so, he should have taken FIRST>

Aug 7, 2019 - 7:32:26 AM
likes this

1159 posts since 7/26/2015

Yes, it was Derryberry. Man, he blows me away.
quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Hmmm.. Fourth.. was that Derryberry? who played Catlettsburg? IF so, he should have taken FIRST>


Aug 8, 2019 - 12:01:24 PM

211 posts since 12/2/2013

I could use help making this a better document.


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 08/08/2019 12:14:53

Aug 8, 2019 - 2:17:02 PM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

Pogo analyzed bowing quite well.. If only he had posted complete tunes demonstrating those bowings.. He may have, but I haven't seen them.. If you know of some...Let me know.
I'm working on a set of OT fiddle ETUDES.. but they will be less elaborate than what Pogo did, and each pattern will be based upon an actual recognizable tune.. It won't be to teach the Tune, but rather it will be to have the tune teach beginners to use their bows in common OT methods...Let the tune teach..!!! .Give me a few months..I have a sheet music program on my computer but haven't yet figured out how to use it fully.. It would also be nice if some Bluegrass fiddlers (And other OT fiddlers as well) would post music demonstrating Their favorite 'licks' or bowing techniques.... I'd enjoy that..

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/08/2019 14:19:41

Aug 16, 2019 - 8:04:40 AM
like this

146 posts since 1/3/2019

I think Pogo was good at analyzing bowing within his own rules. The obsessiveness and dogmatic approach, over-simplification, and how it presented a notion that what he was teaching was some kind of standard in traditional fiddling were not appealing to me.

I do think that pattern bowing or prescribed shuffle style is beginning to dominate a lot of old time fiddling. Maybe even defining the sound of the genre?... I listened to a bunch of clifftop videos recently and the trend I noticed in the playing was that it was super-shuffly. Some so much that some began to sound more like cajun fiddling to me.

Maybe the southern blue ridge style is what pogo was going after, but I hear these prescribed patterns being "put onto" a lot of music recently. Again, it's fine. Just different. I recall an interview with fiddler Jimmy Triplett in one of the magazines where he finally saw a video of Burl Hammons and realized Burl wasn't a shuffly or patterned fiddler (not an exact quote). 

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 08/16/2019 08:06:03

Aug 16, 2019 - 9:48:33 AM
like this

4284 posts since 9/26/2008
Online Now

Go to pogo's page, it's full of examples of his patterns as he played everything with some sort of odd shuffle. To me, they almost all seem forced into the patterns, even when the tune clearly does not call for it. That would be my issue with most all pattern based playing - often played with over-emphasis on the bow changes so that they really stand out - it just seems like the pattern is forced onto the tune. 

Aug 16, 2019 - 11:55:08 AM

7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

There IS a place and time for patterns... I use them when instructing people who don't have a lot of violin experience.. Patterns help them get used to using their bow in different ways (Different patterns). Trained musicians don't usually need much in that area..
When I'm trying to work on my bowing, I use patterns along with the sheet music to make my fingers more versatile.. ( lots of improvement needed in that area),,
For years I was a "nashville shuffle" bower..simply because I didn't know what else to do.. ( that pattern is a good pattern to know)..However nowadays I find myself mixing it up pretty good..
WAAAY back about 25 years ago I attended Old Time week at Augusta... Jerry Milnes and Rafe Stefanini were the instructors for the Intermediate Fiddle class. EVERY tune they taught that week used the Nashville Shuffle... Sure it was 'overkill' BUT it was valuable in that some of the 'everywhichway' uncertainty was taken out and it was easy to sound 'old timey'...Everywhichway isn't bad.. I just don't fully understand the concept .. Tony seems to have mastered it...

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 08/16/2019 11:56:31

Aug 16, 2019 - 12:15:11 PM
like this

146 posts since 1/3/2019

I had the same exchange with pogo... I don't think any one ever said there is no time and place for patterns. Or no value. It's important to realize that discussion of non patterned approaches or traditional approaches to fiddling are not attacks against the pattern method. Seems pogo set up "Everywhichway" as the antitheses to pattern bowing, which is an example of his own creation of terms,rules, and limitations.

Aug 16, 2019 - 12:15:14 PM
likes this

7683 posts since 3/19/2009
Online Now

Just missed a chance to Edit... With beginners, I remind them that the pattern is not necessarily how you will ultimately play a tune, but rather it is a familiar tune that is challenging them to use their bow..and the pattern "gets the bow 'a-movin'..." in a predictable way which helps develop brain/hand coordination.. Debatable, I'm sure..
Plus, everyone teaches in their own way...I use patterns INITIALLY..

Page: 1  2   Last Page (2) 

Hangout Network Help

View All Topics  |  View Categories

0.328125