Banjo Hangout Logo
Banjo Hangout Logo

Premier Sponsors

39
Fiddle Lovers Online


Want to hide these Google ads? Join the Players Union!

Page: 1  2   3   Next Page   Last Page (3) 

May 14, 2019 - 5:06:57 AM
like this
7238 posts since 3/19/2009

The other day at a jam, after having played the tune "Shove That Pig's  Foot a Little Further in the Fire",  I had the opportunity to tell some beginners that a pig's foot was probably a Blacksmith tool and Not just a part of a pig...Then it occurred to me that I'd never actually seen a tool by that name so I Googled , 'blacksmith's pig's foot/images'..The results were inconclusive. Recently Dan Levenson on the Banjo Hangout posted a photo of a tool called a pigs foot, used in the railroad industry.. but it is not a blacksmithing tool. So the mystery goes on..
Hangout member Tom Glos, UK resident, in 2014 posed the question about the possible origin of the tune name ...to a group of Blacksmiths on the "I Forge Iron" forum...the replies make good reading.  See if you think you really know what a pig's foot is after reading their comments....Here is a link to the thread: 

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/38812-shove-that-pigs-foot-further-in-the-fire/

I'll offer my own conclusions after some of you have had a chance to read the link's thread..

 

It is all fun:    It is debatable:   I'm no expert:......

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 05/14/2019 05:17:02

May 14, 2019 - 7:37:48 AM
likes this

Fiddler

USA

3914 posts since 6/22/2007

Interesting! 

What I find fascinating in tune names is learning something about history of the times and places. I have often pondered about putting together a history program based on tunes (titles) and lyrics. What were the events or conditions that caused the song to be written? I know that tune titles are often just a comment on the times (or a person) and a way to identify a tune.  

May 14, 2019 - 7:41:13 AM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

Which reminds me, Fiddler.. .I have a friend who 'collects' oddly named tunes and my favorite is "Maggots In The Sheep Hide"....!!The next time I write a tune I plan on calling it "Who Shot Sally"..

May 14, 2019 - 9:43:35 AM
like this

DougD

USA

9094 posts since 12/2/2007
Online Now

This has been discussed here many times and I thought that piece of "urban myth" had been laid to rest, but I guess not. You can read the story behind the tune's title here: oldtimeparty.wordpress.com/201...the-fire/

May 14, 2019 - 9:53:21 AM

4108 posts since 9/26/2008

For some reason I could not access your link, Lee. 


I'd prefer to see some footnotes or references in an article written as such an authority, but that makes more sense than the tool. Besides, who'd put thier tools in a fire?

Edited by - ChickenMan on 05/14/2019 09:58:33

May 14, 2019 - 10:14:44 AM
likes this

DougD

USA

9094 posts since 12/2/2007
Online Now

"Besides, who'd put their tools in a fire?" Bingo, but it doesn't really hurt imaginary tools.
The title "Push the hog's feet under the bed" is listed in the index of Thomas Talley's 1922 book "Negro Folk Rhymes," but there's no page number and I can't find the story, even though I remember reading it previously.
BTW, try pounding on a piece of pig iron sometime - that's not a material even used by blacksmiths.

May 14, 2019 - 12:25:56 PM

4108 posts since 9/26/2008

I just perused that collection and though it is in the index, I did not see it listed anywhere. I wonder if it is in the 'study' section. I'll have time to read that later, but a search of 'Push' 'hog's' only resulted in the index page.

May 14, 2019 - 12:46:28 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

For some reason I could not access your link, Lee. 


I'd prefer to see some footnotes or references in an article written as such an authority, but that makes more sense than the tool. Besides, who'd put thier tools in a fire?


It opens for me without problem.. you may have to reboot???

May 14, 2019 - 12:49:23 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

Great Info, Doug, and Yes, urban myths are hard to put to rest..Not sure which of the two stories I like best... I DID find that there is a French anvil called a PIG....Who knows.. Now I'll to go back to telling people that I may have been wrong...again, as usual..maybe.. I did email a blacksmith tool company and asked them if there is a tool called a pig's foot.. not reply yet.. and Yes on the link one of the blacksmiths said that he had been a blacksmith for 33 years and never heard of such a tool.   
All fun, debatable, I'm no expert!!! That's my motto....

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 05/14/2019 12:50:44

May 14, 2019 - 1:11:16 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

Doug.. I revisited the link you posted... It sounds authoritative but..leaves one space for speculation.. I guess that is why it is all an urban myth!!!

May 15, 2019 - 11:46:29 AM

echord

USA

754 posts since 4/5/2009

It strikes me that some of the stories about this tune's title may be a bit strained, especially the slave story. While they make good reading, I suppose, I'm more inclined to think the title was probably just a common phrase uttered by some fiddler as he or his wife were roasting pig's feet over a fire, and like many tune titles, recalled later to name an unnamed tune. Pig's feet are a common Southern dish after all and roasting was a convenient way to cook them. Seems likely to me anyway.

Whatever -- it's a great old tune and the group recording in the link in the original post above is great fun. Thanks for that.

May 15, 2019 - 12:10:20 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by echord

It strikes me that some of the stories about this tune's title may be a bit strained, especially the slave story. While they make good reading, I suppose, I'm more inclined to think the title was probably just a common phrase uttered by some fiddler as he or his wife were roasting pig's feet over a fire, and like many tune titles, recalled later to name an unnamed tune. Pig's feet are a common Southern dish after all and roasting was a convenient way to cook them. Seems likely to me anyway.

Whatever -- it's a great old tune and the group recording in the link in the original post above is great fun. Thanks for that.


Generally, I'm with you but Doug's link is old enough that there may be some truth to it.. We'll never know.. I haven't heard back from the Blacksmith Tool company that I emailed asking if there was such a tool as a pig's foot...

A few years ago I wrote a tune that I named, 'The Invisible Man."  It is popular with some of my friends and they  naturally assumed that the name has something to do with Jesus, because I also wrote a tune called, "Jesus Played the Fiddle."..... However, I wrote The Invisible Man at a time when I, myself, felt Invisible to my wife and children..(over that now).... Anyway,  2+2 doesn't always equal 4 when it comes to fiddle tune names...As for the Pig's foot, the other night when I told the beginners that a pig's foot was a tool and had nothing to do with BarBQue.. there was an audible sigh of disbelief.. I have since Apologized for my lack of knowledge....

May 15, 2019 - 12:46:07 PM

4108 posts since 9/26/2008

I would counter that that book Doug referenced is filled with rhymes that are titled with the names of fiddle tunes. I was amazed at the number of titles that were fiddle tunes or variants of fiddle tunes ex: "Walk, Talk, Chicken with your Head Pecked" a variant of "Walk Chalk Chicken with your Head Cut Off." It refers to a cock fight winner. Unfortunately I could not find the hog's foot reference in the general rhymes in the book and haven't had time to read the 'academic' portions where it may be referenced.
More tune titles listed in that book
Old Molly Hair
Jaybird Died of the Whooping Cough
Jawbone
Jaybird
Grasshopper Sitting on a Sweet Potato Vine
Hawk and Chickens
'Possum up the Gum Stump
Sugar in the Coffee-o
Cotton Eyed Joe
Pateroller
Old Hen Cackled
Rattler
Sail Away Ladies
Sheep Shell Corn by the Rattlin' of its Horns
Run (Enword) Run
Year of Jubilee
Old Aunt Kate
Jump Jim Crow

There are a bunch of potential tune names too:
Crooked Nose Jane
Bridle up a Rat
Grey and Black Horses
Why the Woodpecker's Head is Red
Chicken Pie (maybe that is a tune already)
Die in the Pigpen Fighting
Shake the Persimmons Down
Mudlog Pond
Miss Terrapin and Miss Toad
Peep Squirrel
Ham Beats all Meat

May 15, 2019 - 12:55:48 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

I would counter that that book Doug referenced is filled with rhymes that are titled with the names of fiddle tunes. I was amazed at the number of titles that were fiddle tunes or variants of fiddle tunes ex: "Walk, Talk, Chicken with your Head Pecked" a variant of "Walk Chalk Chicken with your Head Cut Off." It refers to a cock fight winner. Unfortunately I could not find the hog's foot reference in the general rhymes in the book and haven't had time to read the 'academic' portions where it may be referenced.
More tune titles listed in that book
Old Molly Hair
Jaybird Died of the Whooping Cough
Jawbone
Jaybird
Grasshopper Sitting on a Sweet Potato Vine
Hawk and Chickens
'Possum up the Gum Stump
Sugar in the Coffee-o
Cotton Eyed Joe
Pateroller
Old Hen Cackled
Rattler
Sail Away Ladies
Sheep Shell Corn by the Rattlin' of its Horns
Run (Enword) Run
Year of Jubilee
Old Aunt Kate
Jump Jim Crow

There are a bunch of potential tune names too:
Crooked Nose Jane
Bridle up a Rat
Grey and Black Horses
Why the Woodpecker's Head is Red
Chicken Pie (maybe that is a tune already)
Die in the Pigpen Fighting
Shake the Persimmons Down
Mudlog Pond
Miss Terrapin and Miss Toad
Peep Squirrel
Ham Beats all Meat


To ME, Walk Chalk Chicken has nothing to do with cock fighting, but rather the strutting of slaves mimicking prancing visitors to a plantation.. Competitions were held and they had to walk a chalk line and maybe win a cake..( I did a LOT of research on that one..) However, I could still be wrong.. Remember: It is for fun, it is debatable and I'm no expert..!!

May 15, 2019 - 1:19:31 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by TuneWeaver
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan

I would counter that that book Doug referenced is filled with rhymes that are titled with the names of fiddle tunes. I was amazed at the number of titles that were fiddle tunes or variants of fiddle tunes ex: "Walk, Talk, Chicken with your Head Pecked" a variant of "Walk Chalk Chicken with your Head Cut Off." It refers to a cock fight winner. Unfortunately I could not find the hog's foot reference in the general rhymes in the book and haven't had time to read the 'academic' portions where it may be referenced.
More tune titles listed in that book
Old Molly Hair
Jaybird Died of the Whooping Cough
Jawbone
Jaybird
Grasshopper Sitting on a Sweet Potato Vine
Hawk and Chickens
'Possum up the Gum Stump
Sugar in the Coffee-o
Cotton Eyed Joe
Pateroller
Old Hen Cackled
Rattler
Sail Away Ladies
Sheep Shell Corn by the Rattlin' of its Horns
Run (Enword) Run
Year of Jubilee
Old Aunt Kate
Jump Jim Crow

There are a bunch of potential tune names too:
Crooked Nose Jane
Bridle up a Rat
Grey and Black Horses
Why the Woodpecker's Head is Red
Chicken Pie (maybe that is a tune already)
Die in the Pigpen Fighting
Shake the Persimmons Down
Mudlog Pond
Miss Terrapin and Miss Toad
Peep Squirrel
Ham Beats all Meat


To ME, Walk Chalk Chicken has nothing to do with cock fighting, but rather the strutting of slaves mimicking prancing visitors to a plantation.. Competitions were held and they had to walk a chalk line and maybe win a cake..( I did a LOT of research on that one..) However, I could still be wrong.. Remember: It is for fun, it is debatable and I'm no expert..!!


Suffice it to say that I've contacted a SECOND Blacksmith Tool company and have asked them if there is such a tool as a Pig's Foot.. At this point I suspect not...(BTW, Billy, did you ever get a copy of that book, Why Did The Chicken Cross The World?  fascinating reading..)..

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 05/15/2019 13:19:49

May 15, 2019 - 3:32:25 PM
like this

Earworm

USA

56 posts since 1/30/2018

There is no need to take that fok tale as history - folk tales are tales. The character of the clever trickster appears in many folk tales around the world, emphasizing the power of an ordinary person to overcome and outsmart a master, authority, or predator. In particular, the trickster Anansi the Spider, that originates in Africa, may be applicable here. This is simply a Wikipedia entry, about Anansi, but there are many folktales utilizing this well-known character. It seems that the fiddler in this story takes on that role.

May 15, 2019 - 3:50:05 PM
like this

DougD

USA

9094 posts since 12/2/2007
Online Now

I thought the same thing. That tale was collected at some point, and the story could fit with the lyrics from Mike Seeger (unfortunately too late to ask him where thry came from) quoted at the Fiddler's Companion. Whether or not it has to do with this tune - who knows? But its plausible
On the other hand, the "blacksmith's tool" story makes no sense at all. It may have been invented by a nattering vegan at Clifftop who was horrified that they were playing a tune about pig meat.
Also, a collector who visited Marcus Martin, the source of this tune, said his refrigerator contained only moonshine and soda crackers. No hog meat at all.

May 15, 2019 - 5:20:10 PM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

Now, you've gone and done it Dougwink  From now on the story will be that the name of the tune has something to do with vegans at Clifftop...laugh

May 15, 2019 - 5:31:07 PM
likes this

DougD

USA

9094 posts since 12/2/2007
Online Now

I thought that was well known already, although its just a theory. I didn't make it up.

May 15, 2019 - 6:11:54 PM
likes this

4108 posts since 9/26/2008

Lee, just to clear things, we sort of cross posted back a couple  and my initial response was to the comment above you. wink

The rhyme "Walk, Talk, Chicken..." was absolutely about a cock fight winner, but not about the fight exactly other than to say he beat the blue chicken and his head got bloodied some. It is possible that the "Walk Chalk Chicken...." title was a parody of or a take on the former. Or maybe the other way around. There is much in that book that is listed as a parody of something. I recently did some research on the cake walk and your description sounds exactly like a cake walk, though they were held for a long while after slavery.

The other tale sounds like it was a dig at a certain type of person. laugh

Edited by - ChickenMan on 05/15/2019 18:19:39

May 15, 2019 - 6:54:43 PM

10276 posts since 9/23/2009

The word "Pigsfoot" doesn't bother me nearly as much as the word, "Further," which just sounds all wrong to me.

May 15, 2019 - 7:15:25 PM
like this

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

The word "Pigsfoot" doesn't bother me nearly as much as the word, "Further," which just sounds all wrong to me.


I let Google do the walking.. Farther refers to distance, while Further is a metaphorical or figurative distance..So,  which word is used could give a totally different meaning!!!!  

May 15, 2019 - 8:18:38 PM

10276 posts since 9/23/2009

lol. It only gets more complicated, doesn't it?

May 16, 2019 - 2:15:41 AM
like this

592 posts since 8/9/2007

Thanks to Lee for posting the link to the question that I asked the smithcraft forum back in 2014. I agree, I enjoyed the replies, but was no more certain about the name.

Just a personal story arising from the tune name. We've played it in the Oxford Fiddle Group for years and wondered about the name. When my partner and I got married eighteen months ago our friends in the group wanted to give us a present. Inspired by the tune name they gave us a day's "experience" at a forge that runs courses in a beautiful location among the hills of the English Welsh border. Great fun with fire, anvil and hammers etc. I made a poker (to be shoved further in the fire) under instruction, then made another on my own, and my wife made a beautiful steel dragonfly.
Tom

May 16, 2019 - 4:58:13 AM

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

Great story Tom...!!!

May 16, 2019 - 7:14:48 AM
likes this

7238 posts since 3/19/2009

I received a reply from the company that sells blacksmith tools..The lady said that she had never heard of such a tool name and referred me to the "I Forge Iron" website...which of course is where we started.. My conclusion in that the tune name does NOT refer to a blacksmith's tool....

Page: 1  2   3   Next Page   Last Page (3) 

Hangout Network Help

View All Topics  |  View Categories

0.3242188