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Practicing G Scales

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Mar 9, 2018 - 12:02:53 AM
794 posts since 7/26/2015

How would you rate my intonation on these G scales? Do I seem to have trouble with certain notes? Is the pitch different plucked vs. bowed, ascending vs. descending, in one octave vs. another? etc.
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Edited by - soppinthegravy on 03/09/2018 20:25:57

Mar 9, 2018 - 5:32:08 AM

bob t

USA

82 posts since 12/26/2007

Try this free tool: musescore.com/. Build your scale in any key, play back at any speed, preferably slow (60 bpm). It has a metronome built in. Play your scales along with it. I use the bandoneon setting in the mixer which is a fair approximation of fiddle. Works good to hear and play play harmonies too.

Mar 9, 2018 - 7:25:15 AM

bluenote23

Canada

79 posts since 7/27/2016

I have only been playing about 18 months so I am not qualified in any way to give advice really.

Did you read my response to your other post (about changing intonation on bowed strings)? I think I hear the 'too much finger' problem at some points when you are playing.

If your computer can support it (unfortunately, mine can't) or have an Android device then Intonia at http://intonia.com/index.shtml can track and accurately show intonation deviations in your playing. At $25 (with a 30 day free trial) it strikes me as being pretty cheap. 

Mar 9, 2018 - 8:33:03 AM

76 posts since 8/30/2017

G String sounded a little flat when played but that might just be me. I usually check with a tuner when feel doubtful about my intonation. Only way to be sure.

Mar 9, 2018 - 10:06:51 AM

fujers

USA

5231 posts since 2/14/2008

You played the scale ok and you missed some notes ascending and descending but a little bit more practice and you'll get it. Now try playing a pentatonic scale. It's easier and fun to play...a lot of bluegrass, folk and other kinds of music play these scales. The notes G A B D E and add the G on the D string to finish it. The pentatonic is a 5 note scale and not a 7 note scale like the one you are trying to play. The pentatonic scale can be found in all keys and they are just fun to play. You play well but playing these I think it will put you on the fast track to learning. Jerry

Mar 9, 2018 - 12:25:56 PM
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946 posts since 4/6/2014

i reckon Jerry is about right, why do we (in western music learning) persist in starting with 7 note scales?... 3 notes (a triad), and 5 notes (a pentatonic scale), are a lot easier and more natural to hear and play than 7 ... then take it from there...

even when we do get to 7 notes, ( in western music), They teach folk the do, re, mi, etc, of the Ionian mode, rather than the more obvious neutral, palindromic, symetrical, and central dorian mode.

but i digress ....

Mar 9, 2018 - 1:37:38 PM

794 posts since 7/26/2015

Which ones?
quote:
Originally posted by fujers

you missed some notes ascending and descending


Mar 9, 2018 - 1:43:04 PM

fujers

USA

5231 posts since 2/14/2008

If you were to listen you'll hear your own mistakes..listen

Mar 9, 2018 - 4:43:47 PM

794 posts since 7/26/2015

It sounds like I tend to be a bit sharp of C natural on both octaves. I wonder why.
quote:
Originally posted by fujers

If you were to listen you'll hear your own mistakes..listen


Edited by - soppinthegravy on 03/09/2018 16:44:10

Mar 9, 2018 - 4:50:50 PM

902 posts since 1/25/2008

No it's fine just keep playing.

Mar 9, 2018 - 5:04:05 PM
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1918 posts since 8/23/2008

I would say that your intonation is very inconsistent, some times you play the notes in tune, but when those same notes are played again, either ascending or descending, they are out of tune. The fingers alone can not be relied upon to play in tune, the notes must be anticipated, meaning that you must know/hear the pitch of each note before you put the finger down on the fingerboard. Usually everyone is able to do this after much playing because the listening skill becomes developed without specific attention to it. However, the skill of playing in tune can be developed from the very beginning of learning to play. Learn to sing in tune first by what ever it takes. Then apply this ability to violin playing thus.... sing the note before you play it, then play the note. Do not slide the finger to play in tune, leave that until you can play in tune with out sliding, this an exercise for playing 'in-tune'. If you play the note out-of-tune, stop and repeat the process. Do this for every note of the scale thus.. sing the note, play it in-tune, lift bow and sing the next note then play it. Stop playing after each note, hear and sing the next note.

Mar 9, 2018 - 6:50:31 PM
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1315 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by 

I would say that your intonation is very inconsistent, some times you play the notes in tune, but when those same notes are played again, either ascending or descending, they are out of tune. The fingers alone can not be relied upon to play in tune, the notes must be anticipated, meaning that you must know/hear the pitch of each note before you put the finger down on the fingerboard. Usually everyone is able to do this after much playing because the listening skill becomes developed without specific attention to it. However, the skill of playing in tune can be developed from the very beginning of learning to play. Learn to sing in tune first by what ever it takes. Then apply this ability to violin playing thus.... sing the note before you play it, then play the note. Do not slide the finger to play in tune, leave that until you can play in tune with out sliding, this an exercise for playing 'in-tune'. If you play the note out-of-tune, stop and repeat the process. Do this for every note of the scale thus.. sing the note, play it in-tune, lift bow and sing the next note then play it. Stop playing after each note, hear and sing the next note.


 

Really? I kow he asked for feedback but that’s pretty condecending. You act like you think he’s a rank beginner and you’re a fountain of fiddling wisdom. Come on...

Mar 9, 2018 - 7:13:52 PM

1315 posts since 8/27/2008

Maybe that’s the kind of feedback he’s after. I don’t really know.

Mar 9, 2018 - 7:30:14 PM

1918 posts since 8/23/2008

quote:
Originally posted by abinigia

 


 

Really? I kow he asked for feedback but that’s pretty condecending. You act like you think he’s a rank beginner and you’re a fountain of fiddling wisdom. Come on...


My post is not intended to be condescending. I told it like I heard it, and it does sound like playing that has not learnt to play in-tune.

 

And yes, I am a fountain of  ''violin'' wisdom..... well it has been my profession for last '30' years.....

Mar 9, 2018 - 7:51:07 PM

794 posts since 7/26/2015

When y'all say 'in tune" I assume you're talking about equal temperament. I downloaded that Intonia program, and it has two other options, Just, and Pythagorean.

Mar 9, 2018 - 8:06:12 PM

1315 posts since 8/27/2008

quote:
Originally posted by

And yes, I am a fountain of  ''violin'' wisdom..... well it has been my profession for last '30' years.....


Okay. I responded without thinking. Long day...   

Mar 9, 2018 - 11:07:19 PM

fujers

USA

5231 posts since 2/14/2008

Henry is right you know. Don't play blind right now there will be time for that in the future. Listen to everything you play and you want have to ask that question no more. You'll already know the answer. Jerry

Mar 9, 2018 - 11:26:09 PM

fujers

USA

5231 posts since 2/14/2008

I hear the same thing your C is where you need work ...and that's nothing but a thing. Use a two note scale..work on that C..play it till your hand fall off. You can do it..it's only one note. Jerry

Mar 10, 2018 - 7:06:16 AM

bluesmode

Canada

716 posts since 2/19/2011

quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
 >>and central dorian mode.<<


 


@pete_fiddle: you've mentioned this several times. I use dorian a lot for blues. Could you please start a thread to explain exactly what you mean?
Thank You.

Mar 10, 2018 - 7:06:24 AM

bluenote23

Canada

79 posts since 7/27/2016

quote:
Originally posted by soppinthegravy

When y'all say 'in tune" I assume you're talking about equal temperament. I downloaded that Intonia program, and it has two other options, Just, and Pythagorean.


My classical violin teacher says that Pythagorean suits the violin better. With this program, play short passages or phrases to identify the problems and then correct them.

Again, my computer does not support this program so I have never used it. I can, however, see that it could be an aid for detecting intonation problems but as others have said, you really need to listen and use your ears.

As a beginner, I have found that I concentrated so much on the other elements of playing and ignored actually listening to what I played. Listening seems like the obvious thing to do but you really need to make sure you leave a part of your concentrating mind free so that you can listen while you play.

Buckhenry's suggestion of singing and then playing what you sing can really help if you are able to do that.

Edited by - bluenote23 on 03/10/2018 07:08:43

Mar 10, 2018 - 8:24:20 AM

bluesmode

Canada

716 posts since 2/19/2011

soppinthegravy: yes I know this is off topic, but it might give you or someone else something to thing about. You can do a lot with that G scale. You can play over the following chords using that G scale modally: Amin7 dorian / Bmin7 Phrygian / Cmaj7 lydian / D7 mixolydian / Emin aeolian / F#min7b5 locrian.

I'll stop talking about 7 note mode scales when Jerry stops talking about 5 note pents wink laugh

Edited by - bluesmode on 03/10/2018 08:32:36

Mar 10, 2018 - 10:37:06 AM

fujers

USA

5231 posts since 2/14/2008

Haha Dave, I'll never stop talking about 5 note scales because it's severed me well over time

On the same subject. Have you ever heard someone play out of tune on purpose. Sam Bush and a lot of other people do this for fun I think it might be on YouTube look it up. Me I do it once in a while it
s kind of neat to purposely play out of tune while everyone else is tuned standard. Ole well enough of that and I know the man can get playing in tune if he practices and that's all it takes. Jerry

Mar 10, 2018 - 12:39:14 PM

946 posts since 4/6/2014

quote:
Originally posted by bluesmode
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddle
 >>and central dorian mode.<<


 


@pete_fiddle: you've mentioned this several times. I use dorian a lot for blues. Could you please start a thread to explain exactly what you mean?
Thank You.


Dave i'll try...

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/48927

Mar 10, 2018 - 4:00:14 PM

2178 posts since 9/13/2009

quote:
Originally posted by soppinthegravy

When y'all say 'in tune" I assume you're talking about equal temperament. I downloaded that Intonia program, and it has two other options, Just, and Pythagorean.


I think using  Just Intonation does a better job for teaching the in-tuneness of harmonic relationships. (as well I think Just sounds better for fiddle tunes).

Mostly it's just listen to what you play; does it sound in-tune or not. It starts with your ear, not your fingers.

I second the comment about and to perceive the sound of desired note in your head; and that singing the notes is probably better... so as not to let your fingers train your ears.

As far as feedback... myself or others can tell you what notes are off, or inconsistent... but that doesn't really teach you, or tell you what is "in-tune" is. That is, if your ear can't determine what is in-tune or not... you will struggle to play in tune.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/10/2018 16:07:20

Mar 10, 2018 - 4:21:55 PM

1315 posts since 8/27/2008

It's easier to tell if you're in tune when playing with another instrument than playing solo, especially if it's playing chords. (I find that's especially true when playing in higher positions without an open string or two to anchor to). You can find chords to play over online if you look. For what it's worth, if you're going to be playing with a piano or with fretted instruments you should just use standard compensated tuning. Perfect 5th intervals on the violin can clash with other instruments, especially in open position where you can't alter them as you play.

Mar 10, 2018 - 4:52:30 PM

2178 posts since 9/13/2009

A few other thoughts.

One thing about practicing as scales... and ear training, linear whole step and half steps intervals (those are more difficult to hear as in-tune) so it''s very easy to not hear it off; be slightly wide or short.

On the other hand - as notes harmonically related from the tonic - to fifth, third, sixth, fourth are much easier to recognize, hear as off. This is why some folks say to play against tonic drone.

edit... didn't see Brians post but might be related to  this - Another approach some use is more chords based... listen to how the root third fifth form solid sound, then as practice as individual notes to the chords... the I, IV and V chords will give all the notes in the scale.

 

quote:
Originally posted by buckhenry

Do not slide the finger to play in tune, leave that until you can play in tune with out sliding,


Hmmm.... Agree that don't want to depend on sliding... As eventual goal is to hit the note dead on... but IMO it's okay to initially slightly slide to the note. This is of course given your ear knows what the intonation should sound like. The process gives feel for where the finger (or voice) has to go, then continuously try to shorten that distance, closer and closer, make micro-adjustments/corrections.. until you can fairly well hit it. (learning micro-adjustment isn't a bad thing).

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/10/2018 16:55:47

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