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Feb 14, 2017 - 1:24:21 PM
290 posts
Joined Jul 26, 2015

Are there double standards in the Old-Time Music genre? 

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 02/14/2017 13:24:58

Feb 14, 2017 - 2:09:49 PM

1053 posts
Joined Dec 11, 2008

Of course.  There's Stan, and then there's Dard.

Feb 14, 2017 - 2:31:28 PM

Ron

USA

116 posts
Joined Jun 25, 2007

In what way?

Feb 14, 2017 - 2:32:25 PM

5359 posts
Joined Aug 7, 2009

"double standards" - is that supposed to be included in a glossary of musical terms? ...or is it intended as a commentary about the different life styles of old time musicians?

Feb 14, 2017 - 5:45:53 PM

Old Scratch

Canada

130 posts
Joined Jun 22, 2016

Yes !   Well - no.  Um ... maybe ....

Feb 14, 2017 - 5:49:12 PM
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2087 posts
Joined Sep 13, 2009

There are standards like "Cluck Old Hen" - one standard is in A minor with G chord; the other standard is A major (mixolydian) with an E chord. " Many many other tunes have double standards...

Probably meant something else, though not sure what you are specifically referring to, but I would say NO - Old-time is just generic label... which involves a pretty wide diversity of interpretations. There is no official governing board or rules that define any standard.   Due to the diversity, "people" might introduce or have double standards.

Feb 15, 2017 - 10:37:01 AM
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Joined Jul 12, 2013

Maybe he meant, they publicly denounce any non-old-timey songs in public, but secretly play jazz music when no one else is around

Feb 15, 2017 - 10:56:10 AM

Fiddler

USA

3569 posts
Joined Jun 22, 2007

...or are "double standards" those crossover hits that can be found in both OT and BG.  (BlackMtnRag, Redwing, Soldier's Joy, etc.)

Like others, not quite sure to what the question refers.

Feb 15, 2017 - 12:06:55 PM

3154 posts
Joined Sep 26, 2008

Merriam Webster says this:
double standard - a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another; especially : a code of morals that applies more severe standards of sexual behavior to women than to men.

I'm not sure if this is what soppin' was getting at (probably not the gender specific position at least).

Edited by - ChickenMan on 02/15/2017 12:07:24

Feb 15, 2017 - 1:50:44 PM

290 posts
Joined Jul 26, 2015

Yep. Something along those lines.
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

Maybe he meant, they publicly denounce any non-old-timey songs in public, but secretly play jazz music when no one else is around




Edited by - soppinthegravy on 02/15/2017 14:04:37

Feb 15, 2017 - 2:14:34 PM

747 posts
Joined Mar 10, 2008

Offer up some of those "public denunciations" please.  My experience with traditional musicians of all stripes is they are proponents of their cultural heritage in public but, like most serious musicians, appreciate (and sometimes play) a variety of musical styles when off-stage.

.

Feb 15, 2017 - 2:26:07 PM

gapbob

USA

414 posts
Joined Apr 20, 2008
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I remember a fellow who said that the only old-time music there was existed 20 miles of Mt. Airy.  Seriously.  So I guess that is one standard.  Everybody else is the other.

Feb 15, 2017 - 2:54:03 PM
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Welcome to old time fiddlers anonymous.
Hello, my name is Billy and I play old time. (Hi Billy)
I also play at Irish and bluegrass. Bluegrassers think I sound Irish, Irish players think I sound bluegrassy, the old time players seem to think I sound just right. In each instance, I'm trying to get the accent right, but old time has thousands of hours more time spent than the other two so that's what wins.
What standards are we talking about here? Bowing? Intonation? Rhythm? I personally think those are pretty important and quantitative aspects of fiddling, and I think they're important in all those genres. Do they compare equally in each genre? That is a question of standards, eh. I'd say no with qualifications. Each genre probably has a different ordering, say rhythm, intonation, bowing or intonation, bowing, rhythm - because each genre has a history. Bluegrass, being the newest and from a slick and professional origin, probably has the highest "standard" of all three of those aspects. Old time, with its plethora of recordings of very old fiddlers, often well past their prime and thus pretty rough sounding on occasion, might have wound up setting the bar quite a bit lower based on these records and maybe the hippies [ ;-)] were just more welcoming to all comers and the waters got a little muddied as the beginners badly outnumbered the more practiced /immersed individuals. Still, you'll find the higher one's skill set is, the more universal appeal they seem to have. Whatever that's worth (possibly a paycheck). What about Irish? High standards, history of dance accompaniment, rhythm being tantamount. That information comes from endless threads at The Session dot org so take it or leave it. There are other more esoteric qualities to fiddling like Drive, Lift, Soul, Energy that are not really measurable but still seem to relate to "a standard".
Or maybe that's not what you mean either. Thanks for listening and... Give me strength to accept the tunes I can't play today and give me the time to learn them tomorrow....

Edited by - ChickenMan on 02/15/2017 14:58:51

Feb 15, 2017 - 3:40:03 PM

2087 posts
Joined Sep 13, 2009

quote:
Originally posted by soppinthegravy

Yep. Something along those lines.
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel
 

Maybe he meant, they publicly denounce any non-old-timey songs in public, but secretly play jazz music when no one else is around

 

 


That describes individuals... and there are individuals that have double standards. (probably in every genre).

Feb 16, 2017 - 8:36:26 AM

1266 posts
Joined Oct 22, 2007

 The people i know that play authentic traditional music of their ancestors, don't call it "old time." They simply play what they know, and call them "tunes."  

Them that have gotten into the resurgence of contra dance, and have mostly learned the tunes from Ryan's Mammoth or Portland collection. These people call this music Old Time.

It's all good! There are so few fiddlers, i feel if you're doing it, Shine On! I'll play anything from a Hymn to Classical, to Nine Inch Nails.

Feb 16, 2017 - 9:46:58 AM
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Joined Jul 12, 2013

quote:
Originally posted by wooliver

It's all good! There are so few fiddlers, i feel if you're doing it, Shine On! I'll play anything from a Hymn to Classical, to Nine Inch Nails.

 


Now I want to hear the Nine inch nail cover!

Feb 16, 2017 - 1:07:03 PM
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1266 posts
Joined Oct 22, 2007

quote:   
Now I want to hear the Nine inch nail cover!
 

I know you've heard Johnny Cash's version of Hurt. That's right up there with The Blackest Crow. (not a NIN tune but a real pick-me-up)

Feb 17, 2017 - 7:11:05 AM
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888 posts
Joined Jun 13, 2011

quote:
Originally posted by wooliver
 
quote:   
Now I want to hear the Nine inch nail cover!
 

I know you've heard Johnny Cash's version of Hurt. That's right up there with The Blackest Crow. (not a NIN tune but a real pick-me-up)


...off topic, but I don't think this thread has a topic, LOL

That version of Hurt is amazing, isn't it..

This guy seems to do a good job with it on fiddle:

http://youtu.be/3lg1EeJZS60

.... I don't know any NIN tunes,yet...(I may have to learn Hurt..hmmm)

But, here is a good one played on violin:

http://youtu.be/bHAdcBY1Pqc

...I have been working up "Black Hole Sun" by Soundgarden.  Actually makes a pretty good fiddle tune...also been learning a little "The Man Who Sold The World", which was a Bowie song covered and made popular by Nirvana. 

oh yeah...back on topic: Does Old Time have Double standards?  umm....yes and no.

Edited by - Mojohand40 on 02/17/2017 07:14:20

Feb 18, 2017 - 1:23:55 PM
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1053 posts
Joined Dec 11, 2008

I've been asked to fiddle Guns N' Roses' November Rain at my nephew's wedding.

Feb 21, 2017 - 10:04:22 AM
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Joined Sep 23, 2009

Do you mean the idea of carefully preserving the tunes as passed down in one particular geographical locstion or heritage, it as passed down by some great fiddler of the past, as opposed to taking the tunes and allowing them to evolve with the times, hopefully by musicians who know how to keep the tunes running true, or as opposed to downright changing the tunes to keep up with rap artists, etc.????  If so....yes, there might be double standards.

Feb 21, 2017 - 12:23:47 PM
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boxbow Players Union Member

USA

2140 posts
Joined Feb 3, 2011

quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
 

Do you mean the idea of carefully preserving the tunes as passed down in one particular geographical locstion or heritage, it as passed down by some great fiddler of the past, as opposed to taking the tunes and allowing them to evolve with the times, hopefully by musicians who know how to keep the tunes running true, or as opposed to downright changing the tunes to keep up with rap artists, etc.????  If so....yes, there might be double standards.


And there it is.  Does my idea of "running true" suit the next guy?  Or the next?  The phrase "double standard" implies that some undesirable characteristic is involved and that possibly nefarious ends are camouflaged by a carefully calculated normality.  Or something.

This is folk music, after all, and it must therefor pass through many hands to get...where, exactly?  If you've got an answer to that then you've figured out running true.

I'm just gonna play what suits me, which is most often what suits my picking partners or my best attempt at such.  It's hard enough to stay in tune, let alone authentic.

Feb 21, 2017 - 12:43:20 PM

9678 posts
Joined Sep 23, 2009

I totally agree, Walter!
Feb 22, 2017 - 4:45:36 AM
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carlb Players Union Member

USA

1968 posts
Joined Feb 2, 2008

Whenever I teach someone the ins and outs of a tune, I almost always supply them with a audio version from which I learned it. While i may not play it exactly as that original, the person can then develop their own way from the version where I learned it, rather then from how I play it now.

Feb 22, 2017 - 7:09:24 PM
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149 posts
Joined Apr 22, 2009

"Are there double standards in the Old-Time Music genre?"
Double standard describes a bias or unfairness.
A rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.
I don't think so, but this reminds me of something.
I was deep into Clark Kessinger in 1975, and there was a group who played Tommy Jarrell
music exclusively in the park on saturday mornings. They were deep into the folkloric nuance
of Round Peak music and I wasn't. Not generally a good match for them. :^)
It was a bias I guess, but not unfair. A little frustrating, but a good lesson for me on
how to find a place in the music [which was more rhythmic in this case.]
Eventually some other oldtime musicians showed up that summer who were in the
Chicken Chokers and weren't so doctrinaire. Much more fun to jam with.

Feb 23, 2017 - 3:07:53 PM
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290 posts
Joined Jul 26, 2015

Double standard wasn't the right word. I guess what I'm wondering is if anybody thinks there is hypocrisy on the part of a lot of mainstream Old-Time players. In my opinion, there is, because they claim to stick to Southern Appalachian traditions, but the majority of the dances they hold are contras, which are not traditional for southern Appalachia, and although they claim to eliminate Bluegrass influence for the sake of avoiding sounding modern, they incorporate elements from other styles of music that are newer than Bluegrass. Also, they claim to honor the old folks, but they rarely show respect to living senior musicians.   

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 02/23/2017 15:10:08

Feb 23, 2017 - 8:08:25 PM
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5359 posts
Joined Aug 7, 2009

I think it is entirely possible for anyone of us to be judged or called a hypocrite - for any number of different reasons. And I think it just as likely that the one doing the judging or calling could - most likely - be judged or called one too.

"Oh my honey can't you see, ya wanna go to heaven, you gotta be like me".

Edited by - tonyelder on 02/23/2017 20:14:27

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