Fidla - Posted - 01/03/2009:  07:54:55

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One of the things that I feel is very important is learning how to sight read. So I recommend to my students that they practice sight-reading at least 15 minutes a day, every day. It's a great way to expand your musical mind, to challenge your fingers, intonation and bowing. It teaches you about yourself, how to go beyond your own barriers, how to reach beyond your current plateau. It's also a great way to learn new material.

Of course this only works if you know how to read music. Reading music is one of the first things I teach new students. I know there are a lot of fiddlers in the world and here on the hangout that don't read, don't know how to read and don't care to learn. That's fine for them. But I feel that reading expands your possibilities, expands your horizons. There are millions of great tunes out there to learn and if you can read, you can learn them all (in good time).



______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

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Edited by - Fidla on 01/10/2009 11:26:41

leather Britches - Posted - 01/03/2009:  08:59:29

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I have to agree with you, I have played the Guitar and Bass ( Electric and Upright ) for 20 + years with out much reading , but when I Starting playing the Piano Accordion and my teacher insisted I read, and I really enjoyed it.
I am just working through my first book with the fiddle,but it helps a lot, and I know I will have less problems with more challenging material.

Nollaig Shona Duit

bj - Posted - 01/03/2009:  10:07:38

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Oldtime Fiddling is an Aural tradition that is passed on by ear learning. Though I can read music, I choose not to. I prefer to carry on the tradition.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Motto for the Week- Mottos are overrated.

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

mikey - Posted - 01/03/2009:  10:23:27

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I play all kinds of music, all kinds of shows, and all kinds of music productions. There are no possible ways to memorize that much material. Its not that I can't nor haven't learned by ear, but sight reading and my library of material allows me to play and perform tenfold what I can memorize. I find it a very handy skill to just look at a piece of paper and play it. I memorize the stuff I play all the time and if I forget, then I can usually pick it up within the first few bars.

I don't personally know of any musicians who have ever regretted their skills of sight reading, but I know of many who lack that skill.

MIKEY


Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else

Sue B. - Posted - 01/03/2009:  10:50:12

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Mikey's description is a nutshell synopsis of both the history and the function of music notation. It's not "music", it's a reasonably efficient way to store more than any of us, singly or as a group, can hope to carry around in our heads. Nice to know that as long as the "rules" for what the symbols stand for and descriptions of common practice remain known, something valuable can survive us that might not otherwise. / I'm another of the "very-literate and wouldn't change that" bunch. Teaching myself how to learn & play completely by ear was a major undertaking for me, though I wouldn't change what it took to get there, or how I feel about that skill, either. / I do not, however, insist that all my fiddle students learn to read well. Their interests, the time they have to spend (including their ages), plus their individual ease or difficulty with 1)playing by ear, 2)remembering what they learned, or 3)interpreting notation quickly & efficiently, all enter into this for me as their teacher. When I think it would make a significant difference in what they say they want to do, or what I think they "should" be capable of, I will certainly talk about the idea. I do ask all my classical students to do some by-ear learning and playing. Sue

John Gent - Posted - 01/03/2009:  10:58:34

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I think it should also be said that if you're in it just for fun, and are having fun doing it, and have no interest in reading music, you can still play the fiddle - and I've seen some really good fiddlers that don't read a lick of music.

I'm older and still do the 40 hour grind. I'm having a really good time with this little contraption and at present see no need to mess with all that paper. Now maybe in 40 or 50 years when I retire I might consider it.

- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA

mikey - Posted - 01/03/2009:  11:27:02

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quote:

---

Originally posted by John Gent

I think it should also be said that if you're in it just for fun, and are having fun doing it, and have no interest in reading music, you can still play the fiddle - and I've seen some really good fiddlers that don't read a lick of music.

---

The post to "Read or not Read" is not this one.

Having fun and having sight reading skills are two entirely separate issues. One does not take away from the other but the two combined become a multiple. I find that people who read well, also know their theory well, and are generally better and more versatile players who can tackle any style of music in a much shorter time.

There are many different skills for being a musician, it doesn't slow me down because someone might lack some of them, however, I choose to gather with the better players in my own personal musical pursuit. In most cases "Fun" level skills of music does not cut it in a intermediate or advanced environment. Which is what my "fun" is. I still regularly jam with newbies, but it doesn't do much for increasing my own skill levels.

There is simply no way possible for me to play the amount of music I desire without the skill of sight reading. I understand that some people can memorize thousands of tunes, but I'm not one of them, nor do I know of anyone who is.



MIKEY


Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else

---

Edited by - mikey on 01/03/2009 11:29:11

Dick Hauser - Posted - 01/03/2009:  11:50:48

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Since I left Michigan some years ago, I have had to teach myself how tp play fiddle tunes. There is just me, my fiddles, my computer, assorted recording equipment, and a BIG library of fiddle books. There aren't any fiddle jams in my area. In addition, fiddlers around here don't seem to have any interest in forming a association that would let fiddlers interact and have fun. Since I play 3 finger banjo and constantly improvise, I can "fake" a tune. But having the notation helps me learn fiddle tunes faster and shows me things my ears didn't detect.

My personal feeling is that learning by ear, AND learning from notation can be used to learn to play fiddle tunes. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages. I think this type of thread came up before. If I remember correctly, Dan Levenson recommended using both methods.

gulfguy

John Gent - Posted - 01/03/2009:  12:17:07

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quote:

---

Originally posted by celticagent
... That's why I said if you don't want to read or that's fine. ...

---

Apologies Adam. I missed (perhaps mis-read?) where you stated this.

Carry on

- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA

Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009:  06:37:41

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So Mikey, give me some examples of how you go about sight-reading a new tune.

1. do you read all the way through it?
2. do you break it down by parts (A & B, etc)
3. do you break it down by measures?

When I read a new tune, I play it slowly through once or twice, then slowly increase the speed. If there is a challenging measure, I'll play that measure over a few times until I get the feel of the fingering, then I'll play the whole thing.

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

mikey - Posted - 01/04/2009:  07:59:21

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Ditto Adam.

Pretty much the same way as you. Sometimes just the way its been written it looks confusing, sometimes the opposite. Once I can get the basics of the tune without many mistakes, then I back up so I can only really see the music shapes on the page. This can take a few minutes to several days depending on the complexity and length of the music.

I am also known for writing all over my music. I tend to whiteout and change or highlight in the trouble spots to get over the hump, as well as mark it for later reference.

Written music is like a recipe, only a suggestion really. Flavor to your own taste in some cases.

MIKEY


Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else

---

Edited by - mikey on 01/04/2009 08:00:40

Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009:  08:10:27

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Music Shapes

Yeah! That's the way I do it too. I look for similar shapes - common runs, things like that, I have confidence I can play those without really "looking" at them - my fingers know how to follow them without thinking about it.

I like the concept that written music is like a recipe. You can change it anyway you want to make it your own flavor based on your desires, cultural influence or dietary needs

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

mikey - Posted - 01/04/2009:  08:16:54

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Sometimes I change it cause its easier to play.

Shape reading music is the same as shape reading English, as we don't actually read and identify every single letter in the word. With music, we don't have to read or identify every single note to play it properly. Problem for me, is I can read faster and more accurately than I can play.

MIKEY


Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else

Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009:  08:24:29

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Mikey learning to sight read quickly is exercising your sight reading muscle more frequently and deliberately, which is why I recommend to my students that they sight read at least 15 minutes a day. After a couple years of doing it every day, you get really good at it.

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/04/2009:  09:59:19

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quote:

---

Originally posted by bj

Oldtime Fiddling is an Aural tradition that is passed on by ear learning. Though I can read music, I choose not to. I prefer to carry on the tradition.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Motto for the Week- Mottos are overrated.

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

---

I'm with BJ, although I don't play old time...I play bluegrass but what she said still applys.

scrubber - Posted - 01/04/2009:  12:10:38

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Sight reading is an important skill when one has to perform from written music -- it makes rehearsals more efficient.

That said, I have never seen a bluegrass band perform from the written page. I don't know if celtic or contra-dance bands do, but I doubt it. I also doubt there are many references to the printed page when these kind of groups rehearse...

Additionally, the term 'sight-reading' means just that -- you can't do it more than once and claim that all of the passes are 'at sight'.





dave

Fiddler - Posted - 01/04/2009:  12:31:36

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I have no issues with reading music. It's one of those hold-over skills I learned from years of "forced" piano lessons. But like some say, it hasn't hurt my fiddling.

The benefits of reading music have been well stated above, but I will add a comment related to playing for contra dances. The written music provides a unifying basis, especially in an open band format and gets everyone playing the same version of a tune. This is one reason the many dance groups who welcome musicians to play with the band will specify a tune collection, e.g. The Portland Collection, etc.

______________________________________________________________
fiddle music - "... it''s for the uplifting of people. It''s the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'''' Marcus Martin.

OTJunky - Posted - 01/04/2009:  12:55:40

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Yeah - a lot of contra-dance bands up here in New England will play from written music though the pros like Rodney Miller don't typically do it.

And I've been to some contra-dance practice sessions where there are music stands all over the place...

Seems to be a bit like playing in an orchestral violin section except that the bows don't have to all go in the same direction at the same time...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

---

Edited by - OTJunky on 01/04/2009 12:56:13

BanjoBrad - Posted - 01/04/2009:  19:08:52

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Adam -

I think you need to define "sight-reading" as you see it ( ).

I can read standard music notation from 5 years of weekly piano lessons during grade school (4 - 8), and taught myself classical guitar from Carcassi's method book.

By the time I got to 6th grade, I could sight-read fairly complicated musical pieces, and after 7 or 8 years of guitar, I could pick up an unknown (to me) piece of sheet music and play it pretty much straight through as long as it was below the 5th fret.

To me, this is sight-reading. Having a piece of music you have never seen before being handed to you and being able to play it straight through with minimal errors.

Otherwise, reading music means being able to sit down with a tune and being able to (slowly, usually) play the shown notes.

I know it may be just the way I had the term defined, but to me, sight-reading is a competition skill and has little to do with reading music to learn it. Probably just semantics, but that is how I think of it.

By the way, I no longer consider myself able to sight-read either piano or guitar music, it's been too long since I devoted any time to that skill. I play banjo from tab, and fiddle from notation and/or ear, but don't sight-read to my definition.

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Edited by - BanjoBrad on 01/04/2009 19:12:07

Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009:  19:33:35

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quote:

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from Brad: Having a piece of music you have never seen before being handed to you and being able to play it straight through with minimal errors.

---

Yup, that's what I call sight-reading.

So my recommendation is that everybody do at least 15 minutes of that every day.

Then go on to your other stuff. Sight reading is not for playing with other people. It's something you do in your practice room by yourself. It develops your brain, your ear, and your finger and bowing skills. It's not something you share with other people around. It's for YOU and you only.

Well, ok, you can share it with other people, but my point is it's for building your musical brain power and playing skills.



______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

mikey - Posted - 01/05/2009:  05:08:39

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15 minutes? !! Heck, I've single passages that take longer to play through just once. They go straight across one end of my piano to the other.

MIKEY


Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else

BanjoBrad - Posted - 01/05/2009:  10:49:39

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I remember some classical guitar competitions where the judging was on 2 or 3 given set pieces, 1 of your choosing and one sight-reading of a given piece (usually a new, unpublished work).

Of course, I never entered, just read about them in the newletter I was subscribed to.

That said, I find it easier to play a new banjo tune from a tab than I ever did from notation on guitar.

Fiddle is an whole other thing! I really should try to start a standard practice routine (or at least a given number of sessions a week).

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---

Edited by - BanjoBrad on 01/05/2009 10:51:38

TimK - Posted - 01/05/2009:  11:36:08

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I agree with the position that sight reading is a valuable skill. Although I am able to read a manuscript and see the visual flow of the piece, I have never worked on developing the ability to play it on sight. I read through slowly and work out my fingerings and bowing and then commit the tune to memory. I have never been in a performance where sight reading was necessary except as a bass player working off a chord chart. That is quite a bit easier then reading a lead line but it does require a knowledge of theory and chord construction. I agree with Mikey in that in order to be a more complete and versatile player, the more skills one has, the better.

TimK

_______________________________________________________________

Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

zai - Posted - 01/05/2009:  11:49:20

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It's very handy to be able to read, and you can lose yourself for hours and hours in books of tunes. All that time could be spent at getting better at playing by ear, and if I had to choose between being able to do one or the other (fortunately no-one is forcing us to choose) I'd choose to not be able to read. I'd have preferred it had I not already been able to read, and had I not been familiar with basic theory and had I had a fiddler for a teacher from day one teaching me how to play by ear and after that completed told me about notation. Of course even when not reading one would need to know about notes and theory and scales and chords and all that. But no need for the bit of paper until the ears are trained. All that is hindsight talking, the way I came to where I'm now is the only way I could find, and so far I'm liking the trip.

No more violence, more violins!!!

mikey - Posted - 01/05/2009:  17:59:46

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quote:

---

Originally posted by zai

It's very handy to be able to read, and you can lose yourself for hours and hours in books of tunes. All that time could be spent at getting better at playing by ear, and if I had to choose between being able to do one or the other (fortunately no-one is forcing us to choose) I'd choose to not be able to read.

---

That just silly . I'm sorry, but thats a bad example of logic. Thats the same as saying If you had to choose to read and write English, or choose to speak it and hear.

I wonder how many people on this forum would choose to not be able to read or write?

Perhaps some people don't have the skills to walk and speak at the same time, but don't cut down those who are able to do so, because many people can. Reading is visual, listening is aural. These are two different perceptions.

The world isn't fair. Some people have many more skills than others. In general, the ones with the most skills are better musicians. If you believe this not to be true, then perhaps people need to get out more. Your only fooling yourselves to think that your better by only having one skill rather than two.

MIKEY


Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else

BanjoBrad - Posted - 01/05/2009:  19:49:42

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To me, reading is a necessity.

When I started playing music (after piano) I did not have the mind to absorb by ear or relate pitch intervals, etc. If I had not had the dots before me, I would be no farther along on guitar than strumming chords to folk songs either by memorizing song sheets or regurgitating the sequences memorized by watching others who would feed me the chord names.

It wasn't until I stepped fully into Old Time music and started learning clawhammer banjo that my ear opened up and began sending useful information to my brain. It wasn't until less than 10 years ago that I finally started to be able to learn by ear.

For me, reading music was the only way I could create music on my guitar for over 40 years.


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fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 01/06/2009:  01:47:34

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Both reading music and music theory in general have a reputation for being harder than they actually are. You probably spent more time learning your ABCs as a kid than it takes to learn to read most fiddle tunes.

FiddleCat - Posted - 01/06/2009:  09:26:22

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Reading music for me is one of the best things I could've done for myself. As soon as I look at the note I don't even process it. My fingers just go. It's like my fingers are reading it, not my eyes. It's really is easier then reading a story book.

I do however like to dabble alot in playing by ear. It's taking me a bit longer to grab at this as smoothly as I'd like to. But I'm making progress.

Dots? or Ear?
Just play and have fun!!

All She Could Sing was Fiddle Come Fee, The Mouse has Married the Humble Bee.

rastewart - Posted - 01/06/2009:  09:46:34

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quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddleCat

Reading music for me is one of the best things I could've done for myself. As soon as I look at the note I don't even process it. My fingers just go. It's like my fingers are reading it, not my eyes. ...

---

This is a place I'd like to get to with the fiddle. I was pretty much there with the trombone when I was playing regulartly, pretty much there with vocal music, close with the piano. In those realms, especially the piano, it's learning to play by ear that has been the challenge. But I learned to fiddle the opposite way, using notes just to get the tune in mind and then polishing it up and committing it to memory by ear. I don't regret that at all--I was such a note-bound musician before that taking this different approach to fiddling was an invaluable new direction and expanded my musical universe enormously. But now I want to bring my fiddling (*ahem*) "skills," for lack of a better word, and my music-reading skills together.

~Rich

Oh, and

quote:

---

Dots? or Ear?

---

Both for me! Which is what you are saying, I think.


_____________________________________________

... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft

zai - Posted - 01/06/2009:  09:55:58

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quote:

---

Originally posted by mikey
.............................
That just silly . I'm sorry, but thats a bad example of logic. Thats the same as saying If you had to choose to read and write English, or choose to speak it and hear.

I wonder how many people on this forum would choose to not be able to read or write?
.............................................................

---

I was speaking hypothetical, as in IF I'd have to choose. A bit like the "what 3 things would you take if you only could take 3 things when being banished to an uninhabited island for a year" or like "if you had to choose would you rather lose your hearing or your sight", stuff like that.
With all those questions they're just posed to make one think, not to really make one choose.

I don't mind being called silly, btw, but don't like being misunderstood so I'm trying to clarify. When typing the post you responded to I perhaps should have added that after learning to play by ear I"d later learn how to read and write, like I said, it's very handy.

As for the English language, I'd rather just be able to communicate verbally then JUST be able to communicate in written form (I feel the spoken communication to be the more essential of the two forms, same as with music). With English language I learnt both things at the same time, in my native language I learnt to listen first and along that came learning to speak, hand in hand with learning to understand.

With music, I learnt to read first, after that came actual learning to play, my first music lessons were recorder and theory and a bit after that piano lessons were added. The reading was considered VERY important. Not much attention to ear-playing/learning, virtually non. Only very recently I learnt how to learn by ear, still working on the actual playing by ear, I feel I'm getting closer to being able to do that.
I think it'd have been easier/faster had I learnt as a kid, I think the learning to read music might have taken a little longer as an adult then it did as a kid, but not a lot.

If someone asks me what to learn to read or to play by ear, my answer would be "do both!" and then I'd add, learn to play by ear first. It is more helpful in learning how to listen, and in learning how to play. Then once that's well underway it's early enough to learn how to read notation or abc. Esp. in this day of digital recorders and tapes and all that so you don't need the bit of paper for memory in the beginning, when memory aids are needed I'd rather go with whatever selfinvented form of tab someone comes up with. More helpful in the learning process. End goal would be to be able to do it ALL. I think ear/show how to by another fiddler is going to get one there faster then getting a fiddle and a book with dots.

Sorry if it's all bad logic, natural blonde typing
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adam, sorry about that, maybe I rambled on a bit too much in my first post in this thread, and certainly too much in this one.

For those who don't read but can play, GO FOR IT, it's not going to take anything away from your playing, it'll only add to learn how to read. For those just starting out, make sure your ear is a step ahead, it'll make the learning to read so much more effective.

No more violence, more violins!!!

---

Edited by - zai on 01/06/2009 09:57:16

FiddleCat - Posted - 01/06/2009:  10:20:59

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quote:

---

Both for me! Which is what you are saying, I think.

---

I don't think you read the whole thing. It says

Dots? or Ear?
Just play and have fun!!

So in other words choose one or both. Just play and have fun!!

I myself choose both.

Mabey it got mixed up in my Fiddle Come Fee thingy.









All She Could Sing was Fiddle Come Fee, The Mouse has Married the Humble Bee.

rastewart - Posted - 01/06/2009:  10:26:17

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Understood, Cat. I also choose both, and to have fun.

_____________________________________________

... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft

ChickenMan - Posted - 01/06/2009:  12:30:47

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My wife has this ability - to play any written piece on piano or (with terrible intonation because she never really plays anymore) the fiddle. It is freakish to witness, especially the piano. She loves playing through smash hits of the 70s and 80s type books. BUT she has a very difficult time memorizing music (including just the lyrics) because she is dependent on the sheet in front of her.
This can also be a barrier to learning how to improvise.
Still, sight-reading is a great skill, and I personally can read as if I were still in the "See spot run" stage but can lose the notes as soon as I have a better impression of the music through playing and listening.

______________________________________
"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife

Fidla - Posted - 01/07/2009:  05:54:23

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quote:

---

Originally posted by mikey
Your only fooling yourselves to think that your better by only having one skill rather than two.

MIKEY

---

Awesome point, Mikey! You da man!

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

Fidla - Posted - 01/07/2009:  05:58:12

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Sight read 15 minutes a day folks. It's like taking your vitamin C every day. Do it for your musical health :)

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

Fidla - Posted - 01/08/2009:  06:17:06

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quote:

---

Originally posted by zai
Adam, sorry about that, maybe I rambled on a bit too much in my first post in this thread, and certainly too much in this one.

For those who don't read but can play, GO FOR IT, it's not going to take anything away from your playing, it'll only add to learn how to read. For those just starting out, make sure your ear is a step ahead, it'll make the learning to read so much more effective.

No more violence, more violins!!!

---

No worries. I agree with you. Learn how to read!

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

Thibodeaux - Posted - 01/08/2009:  08:00:00

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

... I personally can read as if I were still in the "See spot run" stage but can lose the notes as soon as I have a better impression of the music through playing and listening.

---

This is exactly how I am, despite 10 yrs of childhood lessons in classical piano, and now 2 yrs of fiddle lessons. Reading of music, but no real "sight-reading" (of course, I've always had weird problems with the way my eyes process things -- hands on a clock, numbers, etc ... it never appeared to be dyslexia, but things feel "rearranged" -- dunno what it's about). And the page goes away really quickly once I have the piece of music committed to memory. In fact, at that point if I look at the music on paper it can start to throw me off.

I've always wanted to be able to really sight-read. And nowadays, I also really want the skill to pick up a tune by ear quickly. Lots of things to work on.

-Amy in South Louisiana
___________________________________________________________
"Lâche pas la patate."

OTJunky - Posted - 01/08/2009:  08:03:40

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I think most folks on this thread aren't going to like what I'm about to say, but I guess I have to say it.

After 35 years of rubbing shoulders with Bluegrass, Irish and OT fiddlers from Texas - East into Florida and up through North Carolina into Boston - I can't say that I've ever met a single one that thought sight reading was in important skill to have.

Many of them thought reading was an important skill because the Irish players have lot's of session tune transcriptions along with Ryan's and O'Neill's collections. And OT fiddlers have a similar thing with the Fiddler's Fakebook and other written collections that "outline" the tunes so they won't be lost or forgotten. These books are used to remind fiddlers of tunes, to preserve tunes, and occasionally to learn a new one - though tunes are never really played the way they're written in these books.

A big exception to this is the Contradance tradition where fiddlers - at least in the Boston area - are routinely expected to sight read tunes from the Portland Collection or some other "collection".

I think one of the reasons Bluegrass and OT fiddlers don't consider sight reading skills important is that there's not much - if any - written music for these genres that's worth sight reading though there are transcriptions of Bluegrass tunes like "Uncle Pen" that are worth reading - and probably more transcriptions of Texas contest style tunes worth reading - if you're interested in that style. The other reason, of course, is that in both these genres each fiddler's expected to create his/her own version of each tune.

Having said this, I agree that sight reading is a useful skill in some cases. The only question is whether you want to spend the practice time to learn this skill as opposed to some other skills- for those of us that don't have unlimited practice time. And that, of course, depends on what kind of fiddling you want to do.

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

rastewart - Posted - 01/08/2009:  08:58:01

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That all seems perfectly reasonable to me, OTJ. I've mentioned that the bluegrass and OT tunes I've learned, such as they are, I've learned mostly through an initial read-through of a transcription, and personally for those tunes I prefer the transcription to be as straightforward and unembellished as possible. My purpose is to learn the essence of the tune and later to remind myself of it if I forget. (Not that I'm likely to for-- er ... what were we talking about again?)

I guess for me wanting to learn to sightread better on the fiddle is partly just a self-improvement thing, partly feeling annoyed that I don't have a skill on the fiddle that I have on other instruments and voice, and partly that I'm also interested in other styles of music--jazz for instance--where I might need to read a fairly complex score on occasion, and I'd rather be able to do it directly with fiddle in hand rather than plonk it out on the piano first.

~Rich

~~all confused, all the time~~

_____________________________________________

... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft

TimK - Posted - 01/08/2009:  08:58:25

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Well, I don't think your statement is inflammatory OTJ. I do think there is a big difference between sight reading music and reading music. I'm with Amy & Chicken Man in that I read (slowly) to get the fingerings & bowings worked out. After that I committ the tune to memory and gradually make it my own. If you are playing in an orchestra or ensamble where playing a number of different pieces is the norm, then sight reading is not just usefull, it is necessary. For those of us playing more folk oriented tunes, sight reading is not necessary or even particularly usefull but reading music is very helpful.

Sight reading is a skill that takes years to devlope and perfect and then a lifetime of maintenace to keep up. Reading music on the other hand, once learned can be called on as needed without a lot of maintence.

TimK

_______________________________________________________________

Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

scrubber - Posted - 01/08/2009:  10:59:08

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The key word here is 'reading'!

If you don't usually 'read' music when performing, sight reading is superfluous! Not because it is invaluable for others, but simply because reading is not something ordinarily done!

I'm classically trained and feel I'm an excellent sight reader in that tradition, but I don't think that has any bearing for fiddling tradtions that don't employ written music in the course of the performance! In these tradtions, intuitve and improvisational skills are more important!

dave

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Edited by - scrubber on 01/08/2009 11:02:00

bj - Posted - 01/08/2009:  17:49:43

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quote:

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Sight reading in folk music is something you do for yourself - it helps expand your musical brain. It's like playing scales, you don't do that when you're jamming with others, do ya? No you don't. But you practice your scales every day because you know it's going to make you a better player.

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Adam, until you've mastered OT, you can't make the claim on whether it will or won't make a difference in OT. And I know a few players I'm in awe of who have never intentionally played a scale. With all these declarations of yours it seems you're trying to shoehorn every fiddler into the same mold. Some just don't fit.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Motto for the Week- Mottos are overrated.

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

oldtimer - Posted - 01/08/2009:  18:46:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky

I think most folks on this thread aren't going to like what I'm about to say, but I guess I have to say it.

After 35 years of rubbing shoulders with Bluegrass, Irish and OT fiddlers from Texas - East into Florida and up through North Carolina into Boston - I can't say that I've ever met a single one that thought sight reading was in important skill to have.

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Likewise...except my shoulder rubbing goes back 67 years.

I had a recent chat with a top notch professional musician, the director of the local symphony.

I said I had noticed that many young people play an instrument through public school in band or orchestra for years and then, on graduation...they stop playing music forever.

I said I was shocked at this, since the musicians in my bag continue enthusiastically for life. So, I asked, "Why does this happen?"

He said, "It is because they don't teach them music. They teach them note reading."

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

John Gent - Posted - 01/08/2009:  19:32:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldtimer
.... "They teach them note reading." ...

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That's what drove me away from music in the first place. In high school I was in a little rock and roll band - even did a 'battle of the bands' once. Then I took a guitar class. That ended it. 30 years later I decided to try the fiddle. This time I'm paying the teacher, so we teach/learn what I want.

- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/09/2009:  02:21:37

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Although I learn tunes well by ear- most Old Time tunes anyway-
there are certain tunes and also tunes in certain genres that just work better for me learning them by reading from notation.

For instance, I like and want to learn some more Swedish, Scottish, and Norwegian tunes,
but they are enough of a musical "foreign language" that my mind doesn't remember them well without corrupting them quite a bit.
So being able to read notation has been handy for that,
and I've learned quite a few tunes that way. (However, having learned them that way, I tend to <stay>
dependent on the sheet music, which is annoying!)

There is also some kind of limit to how complex of even an Old Time tune my brain can wrap itself around. Something on the order of "Say Old Man, Can You Play the Fiddle?" I might have to get from notation.
Still, I do seem to have a preference for learning Old Time by ear-
and that's partly because the kind of fiddle tunes I'm interested in
are not that often found in collections.
That could change- probably is changing as I write-
Walt Koken and Claire Milliner are apparently
working on a HUGE tune collection, and probably many of them tunes I would love to play. So that might be a motivator.
The ability to sight read well WOULD give me the ability to wade
through large collections of tunes and decide which ones are worth spending the time on to really learn.

Hey- if I could sight read really well, I could record them while
sight-reading, then play back the recording to learn them the <right way>!

I suspect from previous experiences that at first anyway, it's good to segregate tunes by key,
and also by difficulty. If a tune <looks> simple ( the notes are mostly the same length)
it usually <is> easier to play. You've got to slowly increase the difficulty.
In that respect it's just like learning to read your native language- you start easy, and work your way up.

I also think it makes sense to learn to read up to the level of your ability to play the tunes. That sounds like a "doh!" statement I suppose, but it's quite easy to have your reading ability be weaker than your ability to play- the result would be that the tunes you could read easily would be boring, and the tunes you would actually want to play would be too hard to read.
And it seems to me that trying to read a tune greater than your level
of technical proficiency would be exercise in frustration- like teaching a pig to sing....

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/09/2009 02:43:33

Percy - Posted - 01/09/2009:  04:34:56

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Zai -- I understood you perfectly. Because I will make the same statement. If I, personally -- with the type of music I have loved and enjoyed over these 35 years -- had to choose between the ability to read music and to play by ear, I have to say, I would happily play by ear the rest of my life.

The balance of my musical career has been spent playing guitar and keyboards in rock bands and folk groups. Nobody EVER showed up to a rehearsal with a piece of sheet music. Never.

If we were LUCKY, we might get a piece of paper with some lyrics and chords scrawled on the page. Then the person bringing the song would start playing and the rest of us just had to figure out our part. And in about 5 minutes, we would be playing a pretty darned good version of the tune -- with full 4-part harmony vocals when called for.

I do KNOW people who can ONLY play by notes. These people don't get very far in rock bands or folk ensembles. The ones I know play for church functions or art gallery openings... but where I live, there just aren't a lot of gigs for those who read music exclusively.

I was trying to find a bass player for my Irish folk band... and I got a call from a girl who was interested. After chatting for a few minutes, I invited her to join a practice session. The next thing she said was, you have sheet music, right?

No. We have pieces of paper with words and chords scrawled on them. Well, we have that for some tunes. For others, they are totally in our heads.

She decided she couldn't do it.

I read music at a first or second grade level. I can do the "Every Good Boy Does Fine" or "F-A-C-E" thing to figure out what a particular note is -- but that only works when the notes are ON the staff... when they go above or below, I get lost quickly. And I'm okay with whole, half and quarter notes... but add those goofy flaggy things, and I'm totally lost once again.

It's not that I do not understand it. It's that my brain cannot calculate it. For those who say "It's easy," they have never climbed inside my brain.I have been trying to learn to read music since 1967. I played French horn in the school band for four years. I played well. I had great tone, expression, breath control... all of it. But I couldn't read much of anything. When the band got a new piece of music, I "faked it' the first time through and listened to the other players. I played it from then on. The band director loved my playing. He tried everything to teach me to read. It just didn't happen.

I remember getting a beginner piano book a few years ago -- and spent weeks learning some child's tune -- picking out every note one at a time... working, struggling to play the notes. After 6 weeks, i could play one tune reading with both hands. But it didn't help because I wasn't truly reading the notes. I was "figuring them out." When I turned the page to the next tune, I was back to "square one." After a week or two of trying to learn that second tune, I through the book away. It was pointless for me.

I believe there are learning disabilities without names, and for me, I have a learning disability when it comes to reading music. I know it, I understand it. But when I try to do it, my mind actually freezes and I stop playing.

But put a piece of paper in front of me with some lyrics and guitar chords scrawled on the page -- and if I've heard the tune before, I can play an accompaniment part immediately.

So, for some of us, reading music is NOT easy.

Is it valuable? Absolutely! Do I wish I could do it? Absolutely!

But I'm not going to spend any more hours struggling to learn something I could not learn when I was 10 or in the 41 years since then.

This thing called music is my joy and my life. And I don't know how many years I have left -- so I'm not going to spend it with beginner fiddle book struggling to learn how to play "This Old Man" by note.

zai - Posted - 01/09/2009:  04:56:04

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Percy, I used to be one of those people who could only play by notes. Only after I started getting less dependant of the dots I felt like I was finally starting to actually 'get it'. I'm still getting better at playing by ear, and the other day I even went over to the piano and had a go at a tune I'd learnt on fiddle by ear, and I was pleasantly surprised how what my ear learnt playing fiddle transferred over to piano like that. I could even work out some chords for the left hand! :D
If I were in your shoes I wouldn't bother with learning to read either :D Easy enough to find someone to play a tune for you off the dots if you can't find a recording of it. Anything that comes in abc form is easily midified, so no need to learn to read when you can pick up stuff as easily as you can.
Pretty sure you COULD learn how to read though, but only if you'd really put your mind to it, and hey, no need to, lucky you!!!

No more violence, more violins!!!

scrubber - Posted - 01/09/2009:  07:37:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by celticagent

Yeah dave. Sight reading in folk music is something you do for yourself - it helps expand your musical brain. It's like playing scales, you don't do that when you're jamming with others, do ya? No you don't. But you practice your scales every day because you know it's going to make you a better player.

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I don't think you see my point, Adam....

This is a matter of suitability. Practicing scales (if one is inclined to do it) will certainly help develope flexibility, coordination, etc -- all skills that can be employed while playing with others. Being able to read music at sight will not be an advantage playing in a group where no one is reading!

Two big advantages to being able to sight read well (where suitable) are that you can quickly make a musical contribution to the group and playing time will not be wasted helping you learn your part. These objectives are also important to non-reading players when they encounter a new tune. The preparation is different, however, and involves ear training and having a grasp of the style of the music (to help 'guess' what's coming next!).



dave

carroll - Posted - 01/09/2009:  08:15:27

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I believe that playing by sight (reading music) and playing by ear are different , and almost unrelated, skills. I think that what happens in the brain is very different in the two cases.

In the former case, the brain is mapping what you hear, either with your ear, or with your "mind's ear" , to, for example, a finger position on the fiddle.

In the latter case the brain is mapping what you see to the finger position. In this case, it is also helpful or necessary for your mind's ear to map a tone to what you see on the page.

Both skills require practice - lots of it!

My observation is that playing by ear is necessary to advance beyond a beginner level for aural music traditions. This certainly would include OT. My reason is that playing directly from the sheet, or memorizing a sheet generally lacks the personal nuance that is expected from the music. This is often noticable to listeners familiar with the tradition. This is not to say that reading is a useful skill for certain purpose as was pointed out by OTJ and others.

Because "personal nuance" is regarded as a huge "no-no" when playing certain in certain ensembles such as Symphony, Wind Ensemble, etc, reading music is obviously a required skill.

I've had some interesting experience in this area: I started off playing euphonium (strictly reading) and got to a fairly high level of proficiency. I stopped in college, switched to fiddle and played mostly by ear with a little reading on the side for 35 years. I recently went back to euphonium and had to "unlearn" playing with too much nuance and "color" in my tone so that I would match the section. I am trying to play euphonium by ear, but find that when I do, my "mind's eye" is trying to put up a sheet of music! Too often it is blank... Not a problem with the fiddle.. ears to fingers

- Carroll