TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/07/2024:  13:58:12

I had to lament...A friend, in inviting her friends to a house concert kept referring to her ''partner''.. At first I wondered if she had a New partner..Eventually, and with the help of a photo, I realized that no, it is the same partner that she has had for years.. a guy I've known all that time..but to be politically correct she wouldn't write He/Him/or (his NAME).... This may have gone just a little too far for this old man...

I DO try to be sympathetic but jeeeez...sometimes I just want to laugh instead. If he is  a MAN and has a Name...use it !!??

Am I the only one who notices this?

Last year I attended a 'meet an greet' at a volunteer venue.. We all were asked to give our name and "Pronoun''. "Just call me The Most Esteemed Mister Lee " and lets get to work. One young woman? said that "they" wanted to be referred to as 'them".. I tried to contain my feelings at that suggestion..

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 11/07/2024 15:15:28

Brian Wood - Posted - 11/07/2024:  15:23:37

I agree, Lee. I tried to write a longer response but the internet ate it.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 11/07/2024 15:26:29

farmerjones - Posted - 11/07/2024:  15:43:32

I hear ya Lee.
Steering clear of Recreational Outrage rampant right now.

NCnotes - Posted - 11/07/2024:  17:28:38

It’s a generational thing?
I went to a backyard event and us older folks wrote our names on the labels.
The kids all wrote their names and then underneath, their pronouns.

DougD - Posted - 11/07/2024:  17:40:38

"Each to its own" said the old lady as she kissed the cow.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/07/2024:  18:19:59

The problem might be the English language. We have specific pronoun issues...you can't always say it how you mean it with our awkward pronouns. Of course partner / husband aren't exactly pronouns, but sometimes it's hard to get specific anyway.



What gets me the most, though, is pronoun case. 

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 11/07/2024 18:25:16

doryman - Posted - 11/07/2024:  18:44:45

Lee, I don't think that the use of "partner" is a pronoun issue, nor an attempt to be politically correct. Rather, it's a catch all term that might include a boyfriend or girlfriend (same sex or not), husband or wife (same sex or not), and another dozen arrangements that I haven't thought of. When some introduces me to their partner, I just assume that it's a person in their life to whom they are committed, likely romantically, but maybe not. More than just a friend, in other words. None of my business otherwise. I think it's rather succinct and expedient.

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/07/2024:  19:39:06

Yeah, I like grammar rules. A pronoun is very specific, and they/them can indeed be ambiguous, I've used that device for most of my adult life when talking about someone, telling a story and what not, "then this person walked up and they said..." but when the person is standing in front of me and presents this, I hold my tongue. I really want to ask,"how many do you have in there?" because they/them mostly implies more than one person.

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS Rather than getting pissy when someone who has used they and them their entire life to refer to multiple people has a hard time with remembering oh this individual wants to be referred to as a group. They seem to have no trouble making up words (like rizz),  make up something to call yourself. It almost seems like more attention is paid to the they them because of all the fanfare announcing their special words and then multiple confrontations when someone gets it wrong.  

If you are a they them, I will make an effort to remember, but piss off if you get bent out of shape because I botch it once and a while. I'll be dead eventually and you won't have to deal with me and my generation not doing your bidding regarding pronouns.

End of rant. I spent an hour in standstill traffic this evening, well after rush hour, and it has me in a mood.

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/07/2024:  19:42:19

I have good friend whose daughter (still going to use that type of word) is a they. It is confusing to have a conversation about them (hey there it is) because I still have conversations about actual groups of people who are still referred to as them, because that's what the word is for.

doryman - Posted - 11/07/2024:  20:01:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS...

 

---

There have been many attempts to introduce new, genderless pronouns, but none of them have caught on, "hu, " to replace he and she, for example. 

DougD - Posted - 11/08/2024:  02:46:35

I like doryman's approach. "Partner" seems perfectly reasonable to me, although its sometimes confusing whether i refers to a romantic or business relationship. "Boyfriend" and "Girlfriend" seem incongruous to me for middle aged (and up) people, and I always chuckle when folks refer to their "hubby" or "dear wife." Always sounds to me like a character in a comic ballad like "Three Nights Drunk," but I've never been married, so maybe it makes sense in that relationship. In any case, "partner" is certainly not a pronoun. I can't say that I've really been bothered much by all this, but I guess I don't get out much.
Peggy, be glad you don't speak German where nouns have genders, sometimes surprising ones (to me).

TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/08/2024:  04:39:54

My granddaughter's name is Ella, which to her Panamanian, spanish speaking aunt means HER.. I still smile when the aunt first heard the name and asked, "Why would anyone name a child Her?"

Erockin - Posted - 11/08/2024:  04:54:28

What are a Donkey's pronouns??













Hew/Haw :)

TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/08/2024:  04:57:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

My granddaughter's name is Ella, which to her Panamanian, spanish speaking aunt means HER.. I still smile when the aunt first heard the name and asked, "Why would anyone name a child Her?"

---

Sorry, Ella means 'SHE" in  spanish..

boxbow - Posted - 11/08/2024:  05:19:12

I haven't been called on it yet. If/when I am called on it, I'm afraid I'll have to muster up the good old stupid gaping stare. I just don't feel obliged to follow the internal identity-searching of complete strangers. I don't like to listen to them read their poetry, either. Or describe their latest adventures tooth-flossing. The point is, this may be important to them, but it is truly none of my business. Period. End. Dot.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/08/2024:  05:19:49

I always found it funny that a lot of other languages use genderish pronouns for inanimate objects...they don't have an "It," like we do. And if you think about that...well it's just funny... the book...it's not on the table...she's on the table, the book is...she's right there waiting for you to read her. I mean, how would that change our view of gender if we spread out the idea to include all inanimate things. How would it change our view if, like in Russian...dogs are all SHE until proven otherwise...so...here in the U.S., we see a pack of dogs (run away...lol) and they are referred to as HE...any dog is a HE until it's known otherwise, and it's usually not important enough to find out the gender of a dog. But in the Russian language, maybe others too, but Russian is the one I took for a little bit and saw this phenomenon, you see a pack of dogs or even just a dog, and it's automatically referred to as a SHE...ie. instead of , "Oh cute dog, how old is HE?" like we would do here, in Russian it would be "Cute dog, how old is SHE," unless and until somehow it came up that the actual gender had some relevance. What I"m saying is the way we do it...everything's an it, or a HE, (except cattle herds), and so SHE is sort of a stand alone...like a sore thumb. I use HE a lot because I guess I feel like the grammar in our language just goes that way...but I do think it makes our awareness of gender in humanity as something, possibly strange, different, or even inferior if it's exceptional to the HE. I mean, I make bears all the time now, now that I have so many home duties and cannot play music hardly ever or do anything I'd love to do...so anyway, I habitually and nervously just make bears like a madman (lol...see, madwoman sounds off). I call them all HE...I refer to them...HIS legs are ready to be attached, HIS eyes are such and such...etc. But it's a grammatical thing...if I called one HER, suddenly it would be an outlier bear...a girl named TEDDY, stuck alone in the world of man bears...lol. I think that does affect our culture and might make people extra sensitive to gender language. But also it's true there seem to be a lot of gender issues going on and we obviously aren't equipped psychologically to know how to handle that. Remember the old Smurf cartoons? I thought they were cute, but having a little daughter the first time I saw them come on TV where we were, I kinda thought they might be bad for her, since all the cute little smurfs were male...and there was one that stood out like a sore thumb, only one smurffette. That was kind of weird. She watched it here and there...but I wondered how mentally healthy it would be for a girl or a boy either one, that being the female is a oddity in the world of smurfs...or should it be smurves...lol?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/08/2024:  05:24:38

Oh I forgot...when I hear someone say partner, my first thought is they are lifelong companions, but not married. I don't give it a second thought...because it doesn't matter to me.

DougD - Posted - 11/08/2024:  08:23:45

I just realized I get most of my cultural information from listening to ESPN radio, so I might be ahead of the curve in some areas and maybe a bit behind in others.

screecher - Posted - 11/08/2024:  08:33:50

The way I think about is, there's a lot I don't know about a lot of things, so I just try to err on the side of being polite, trying not to be a jerk if I can help it, when there's really so little being asked of me.

Old Scratch - Posted - 11/08/2024:  08:46:03

A few observations of no significance:

- "In German, a turnip has sex but a woman does not." - George Bernard Shaw

- I spent many years living and working in Cree communities. In the Cree language, personal pronouns have no gender, so they don't have to worry about any of this. I assume that it's the same with many if not most if not all Indigenous languages.

- There's a tiresome power game that goes on with pc language. Usually there's some legitimate concern or problem at the core of the demand for change, but ... well, you know where it all ends up. Okay, it ends up with old folks like us mumbling into our soup.

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/08/2024:  10:26:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS...

 

---

There have been many attempts to introduce new, genderless pronouns, but none of them have caught on, "hu, " to replace he and she, for example. 

---

How do you pronounce that? Hew? Who? No wonder that one didn't stick, kind of awkward.

Who is introducing these new premium attempts? Was it the individuals who want them or was it academics? If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Has that idiom been lost to the Internet age?

It appears I'm officially a grumpy old man.

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/08/2024:  10:32:18

Peggy, like dogs are he, cats are always "she" until proven otherwise.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/08/2024:  11:01:33

I think in my geographical space cats are still a HE until/ unless there is some reason to refer to or realize an individual's gender...but, hey...good to know some places they are SHEs. It all seems to be cultural...the origins of the grammar...either it was born of culture or else culture has come to take the blame for our perspectives on gender because of our grammar...everybody knows our grammars oughta be home baking cookies instead of giving us this grief we don't need...lol.

DougD - Posted - 11/08/2024:  12:03:52

Old Scratch - I think I know what he was getting at, but I believe I'd take GBS with a grain of salt!

boxbow - Posted - 11/08/2024:  14:11:45

I frequently refer to my long-time climbing partner as...my climbing partner. We've been friends a long time, he was my best man, we've had adventures, we're both married to Lynn. OK, we're each married to our own Lynn, but there it is. In my mind I recall that he is first and foremost my partner and best man. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread came up. Lately we've begun to share which body parts ache more. Constantly evolving relationship here.

boxbow - Posted - 11/08/2024:  14:14:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I think in my geographical space cats are still a HE until/ unless there is some reason to refer to or realize an individual's gender...but, hey...good to know some places they are SHEs. It all seems to be cultural...the origins of the grammar...either it was born of culture or else culture has come to take the blame for our perspectives on gender because of our grammar...everybody knows our grammars oughta be home baking cookies instead of giving us this grief we don't need...lol.

---

ow.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 11/08/2024:  15:44:15

I bet I've mentioned this a couple times before, but back in the Dark Ages when I was planning on becoming a Linguistics professor I wrote a paper on how pronouns (like "he","she", "it", "them," and "those dudes") are used and how the usages change over time. In any event, stuff that at one time might have been considered scandalous and might have caused fist fights can easily become perfectly acceptable, and vice-versa. Putting it another way, you just got to roll with it. I mean, if we were dutiful enough about how we should talk we'd still be speaking Anglo-Saxon...or perhaps just uttering cave man style ugh's.

farmerjones - Posted - 11/08/2024:  18:25:24

Today, we were thinking about the old song, If I were a Carpenter.
That mutha wouldn't wash today.

It's been about 5 years since I shut down my Facebook account. Best thing I ever did. One can't believe what people can get worked up about.

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 11/08/2024:  19:48:15

It's simply more "hey, look at me!" 



"All things are wearisome, more than one can say,

The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear it's fill of hearing.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again;

there is nothing new under the sun.

Is there anything of which one can say,

                   Look! This is something new?

It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.

There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered

by those who follow."

                            Ecclesiastes 1:8-11

TimeTension - Posted - 11/08/2024:  23:49:28

I think I was 23 and in the 7th grade when I realized that my pronoun wasn't "horse's _ss." What a relief that was, though I really didn't like the replacement any better.
Wishing all a meaningful Veteran's Day.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/09/2024:  05:35:22

Seriously though, one of the best things about studying a different language...not going for fluency or PhD, just study it enough to see how people, things, events, nature, music, etc., are described/told/expressed...it shows that language has an intimate connection to our views and thoughts about the world. It's alive too, language is alive, and changes along with our times, experiences and perception.

I mean, in Spanish, you don't 'Play" the fiddle...you "touch" the fiddle to make music. You don't look at "yellow flowers," you look at "flowers (of) yellow...."etc. And later, when I got my big fancy dollar-higher-than-minum-wage job up here and left home, one of my job benefits was free tuition for one or two, depending on the level, classes per semester. Well I took Russian...meant to take Chinese, but 101 was never offered when I could get away from work...so, Russian...just 101 and 102. That was a real eye-opener of a class. Especially since the language, besides being beautiful, had fairly recent changes going on because of big political changes. Wow...what an opportunity to see how societal thinking/ political thinking affects how people speak...that plus we also ventured into the old Russian authors...which was really tough for beginner Russian students...but comparing Dostoevsky and the rise of Communism and the modern high tech world and eventual fall of Communism (of course it seems to be back now, but I don't know what's going on with the language at this point and have forgotten just about every Russian word I did know...lol), you can watch evolution of events, perspective, speaking, thinking...fascinating...it's like digging up language fossils.

So...I don't know...maybe being a useless philosophy major in my youth, followed by little peanut jobs my whole life...lol...maybe that gave me too much bored time under a rock to just try to ponder and marvel over weird useless stuff...lol.

doryman - Posted - 11/09/2024:  09:18:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Personally, if the kids want to be referred by something other than he/she/(it ) then maybe the kids should make up NEW PRONOUNS...

 

---

There have been many attempts to introduce new, genderless pronouns, but none of them have caught on, "hu, " to replace he and she, for example. 

---

How do you pronounce that? Hew? Who? No wonder that one didn't stick, kind of awkward.

Who is introducing these new premium attempts? Was it the individuals who want them or was it academics? If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Has that idiom been lost to the Internet age?

It appears I'm officially a grumpy old man.

---

It's derived from "human,"  so pronounced like that.  

TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/09/2024:  10:59:29

I have a good friend/neighbor who is a woman who identifies as a man. I never refer to that person as him or her. I just use their name.
When busking I often see little kids whose gender is questionable so I wink at the parents and say, "Cute little 'them/they' you have there." They always get it and always see the humour of the comment. Harry Hare is a Hare who identifies as a Wabbit.....

TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/09/2024:  11:31:35

By the way, there is a hilarious movie called It's Pat...about a man who is trying to identify the gender of one of his coworkers...Many at this time will be offended by it but THEN, it was funny. I STILL think it is funny..Based (I think) on SNL.. Here is a link you might enjoy..imdb.com/title/tt0110169/

DougD - Posted - 11/09/2024:  14:12:44

I remember those skits from SNL - they weren't all that funny even then. As far as busking encounters, you can always say "Cute little child (youngster, tyke, little one) you have there." I prefer "urchin" or "rugrat," but some parents aren't so keen on that.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/09/2024:  15:25:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

I remember those skits from SNL - they weren't all that funny even then. As far as busking encounters, you can always say "Cute little child (youngster, tyke, little one) you have there." I prefer "urchin" or "rugrat," but some parents aren't so keen on that.

---

Yep.. I get tangled up in PC, but  "kid'' still works, I guess.. Cheers..

DougD - Posted - 11/09/2024:  15:40:10

Yep, "kids" are great, although I suppose the "Goats R Us" lobby might object.

Edited by - DougD on 11/09/2024 15:41:50

DougD - Posted - 11/10/2024:  08:26:08

Peggy - That all may be interesting, but I'm not too good with other languages, so for me its been more informative and interesting, and certainly more fun, to actually visit other places, here and abroad. Meet the people, walk the ground, see the landscape, breathe the air, hear the language and stories, sample the food and drink (even coffee), and especially hear and exchange music. Playing music has enabled me to do this, and even when I traveled for other reasons I took advantage of whatever musical opportunities came my way (I learned to play the dan tranh a little from a street musician in Saigon, for example).
Back to language usage, I think I once read that instead of "playing" or "performing," Paganini would announce that he would "cause his violin to be experienced."

Edited by - DougD on 11/10/2024 08:27:39

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/10/2024:  10:07:12

Yeah that sounds like some very interesting and enlightening experiences. I've never traveled at all...for some reason, my favorite spot has always been home, and I'm never comfortable even five miles or so away from whatever is home . But I did meet a whole lot of international students in the small college I went to...so...the school was so small you knew and / or interacted with probably most students there. But as far as learning from other cultures, I guess for me the eye opening part of it is introspection...how do I see things or think of things...compared with how others do...are we the same? Does the world present itself the same to us?

You know, I've read some interesting stuff about how there really is no definitive answer to how we perceive color... you can't ever know if red looks to you like it does to somebody else...so, if you could see the world through their eyes, what they call red might just surprise you. Then I also had this friend who was an artist, I mean a real artist...like his stuff in galleries all over the country and he was featured on educational channels back in the day, etc. Anyway, he was one of the old friends where we would get together, just jam in our own informal way, lay our kids on a blanket when they got sleepy, and stay up half the night drinking coffee and just talking about one thing or another. Anyway, he would often just go off on color sometimes: color theory, theoretical color, color actuality, color behavior...etc., etc., etc. And I guess my point, once again, is that it's so interesting to wonder how our own experiences in the world are...like...are we totally alone with them...are we really a one-of-a-kind, ephemeral, solitary receptacle of physical phenomena that we interpret quietly from within our own cloistered personhood?

Lol...ok, I realize i'm talkin' like a real nut at this point...shoulda stayed home and just focus on growin' tobacker, maybe...lol.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/10/2024:  10:24:33

Don't know what a "Pronoun" is, and can't be bothered to google it. I just say what i mean, in the context i am in, and probably put my foot in it.



But I'll take the criticisms from the folk who purport to know the intricacies of the English language, and how i should use them.



They may or may not get my meaning....Who cares?...What they going to do? Wave their dictionaries at me?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/10/2024:  11:37:24

"Pronouns.... How I lament"



Is that enunciated with the back of one's hand placed strategically upon one's forehead?

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 11/10/2024 11:41:04

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/10/2024:  12:02:13

I do think it's best to just not make any deal out of someone whose child is suffering from not feeling at home in their own bodies...for whatever reason or whatever it has to do with pronouns...it's probably a very painful time for all of them.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/10/2024:  12:18:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I do think it's best to just not make any deal out of someone whose child is suffering from not feeling at home in their own bodies...for whatever reason or whatever it has to do with pronouns...it's probably a very painful time for all of them.

---

No understandy?

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/10/2024:  12:38:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I do think it's best to just not make any deal out of someone whose child is suffering from not feeling at home in their own bodies...for whatever reason or whatever it has to do with pronouns...it's probably a very painful time for all of them.

---

Agreed.

But THEY (or their parents, as the case may be) are the ones making a deal out of it.

Oh how hard it is to live in the 21st century with a computer/phone/camera in one's pocket (or on one's wrist as predicted in the funny pages) constantly entertained and not having to worry about food or shelter. It seems to free up the mind find something else to be concerned about.

*mumble mumble, old man noises*

TuneWeaver - Posted - 11/10/2024:  12:53:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I do think it's best to just not make any deal out of someone whose child is suffering from not feeling at home in their own bodies...for whatever reason or whatever it has to do with pronouns...it's probably a very painful time for all of them.

---

Agreed.

But THEY (or their parents, as the case may be) are the ones making a deal out of it.

Oh how hard it is to live in the 21st century with a computer/phone/camera in one's pocket (or on one's wrist as predicted in the funny pages) constantly entertained and not having to worry about food or shelter. It seems to free up the mind find something else to be concerned about.

 

 

*mumble mumble, old man noises*

---

My  thinking about this gender stuff;... it is only NOW that Gay people are becoming accepted.... The idea of 'trans' people is stretching it and apparently the public isn't quite ready for the term and its implications.  Not sure but I've always thought that the chemicals/hormones put in food can't be helping society...mumble, mumble...

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 11/10/2024:  14:15:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Don't know what a "Pronoun" is, and can't be bothered to google it.

Pronouns are catch-all nouns that, in sentences and conversations,  substitute for specific, actual nouns once you understand what folks are talking or writing about.  In English they include "he," "she", "it" and "they." And oh yeah, "dem dudes" can be considered a pronoun, as well...

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 11/10/2024 14:17:43

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 11/10/2024:  14:38:39

Wait a minute! I've already posted this! Huh? Wha?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/10/2024:  14:41:08

Nahh.....all the "Homoerotic themes in Greek and Roman mythology" Show it has been known about accepted, ignored and/or contested for millennia.

Edit: Referring to Lee's post

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 11/10/2024 14:46:59

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/10/2024:  14:51:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Wait a minute! I've already posted this! Huh? Wha?

---

Apologies Ed, i usually only read the OP and last few posts. just shows my short attention span.