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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: When does the C# become C natural??


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/57112

Creole - Posted - 09/14/2022:  18:16:43


Went a lesson...my teacher changed the C sharp on my A string I was playing to a C. Says it was because we were in the Key of ..D? How do you tell. It was unclear. to me...any good books that explain it? I was playing the C sharp but the natural C sounds waaay better.. The sone is Irish Washer Woman.
TIA
Doc

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/14/2022:  18:42:43


Key of D, the C is #. If your instructor called it D, he/she is likely thinking like guitar players who often call songs that have D as the home chord but go to C and G as "D" when that is actually either key of G or the modal key D mixolydian. "Irish Washerwoman" is typically played in the key of G, which has a C natural. You've likely been playing in D all this time. Good on ya for learning another key. Pretty soon you'll be playing in A where the G is sharp.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/14/2022:  19:39:26


Doc every song is in at least one key with each key having seven possible modes. Discerning the 12 possible keys will always be a task of looking at sheet music or using your musical ear.Eventually it is hoped that the mode will be recognized by it's sound as they all have a different "flavor." IRISH WASHERWOMAN is not Mixolydian mode, a powerful sound, it's in the Ionian mode a vanilla, happy sound. It's first melody note is D but it is not in D it's in G. The theory of that is that songs usually start and end on either the 1 3 or 5 of the key, in this case 1G 2A 3B 4C 5D 6E 7F# = G B or D. The rest of the melody will be a meandering thru the scale with chords played, usually the 1 4 5 to harmonize that melody.

Hector - Posted - 09/15/2022:  09:00:03


There are many different versions of this tune although they are mostly played in G maj. To my ears it's not always easy to say whether a tune is G Ionian or D Mixolydian, especially if someone starts "changing" the chords here and there! But if it still sounds ok then why worry?

I play the pipes (although not much these days) and can play a tune like 'Blarney Pilgrim' (D Mix.) with either D or G drones. Each sounds good in it's own way.

RichJ - Posted - 09/15/2022:  09:26:17


A piano keyboard (or photo/diagram of same) and a tiny bit of music theory will help understand the notes of a scale in any key.

1. Western ears want to to hear major scales that sounds like this: tone-tone-semitone-tone-tone-tone- semitone.
2. White keys B-C and E-F on the piano keyboard are separated by semitones. All the other white keys are separated by a tone.
3. ANY black key and the white key next to it is separated by a semitone.
4. Start with any piano key (most fiddle tunes will start on G, D, A, or C). Use the above formula to get the rest of the notes for each scale.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/15/2022:  12:24:45


Sounds like your teacher is just sayin that the key of D major is the same as the Key of G, but with a C# instead of a C natural



....Or the Key of G Major is the same as the key of D Major but with a C natural instead of C#...



The "Modal" stuff can wait until you understand the "Circle or Cycle of 5ths (or 4ths)"



i would recommend Googling "The Cycle of 5ths"

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/15/2022:  13:04:33


If you look at a piece of standard sheet music and there are notes that are consistently sharped or flatted then it is a mode if not it is in straight Major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian).

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/15/2022:  13:14:58


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

If you look at a piece of standard sheet music and there are notes that are consistently sharped or flatted then it is a mode if not it is in straight Major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian).






Unless you are looking at an old O'Neill's book or similar. Then you've got to decide for yourself what sounds good, and what mode is "suggested" by the key signature. And whether the version you like changes modes...etc

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/15/2022:  14:38:58


Ah yes Pete, when there is no backup harmonies given you need to make up your own. That makes for some very interesting arrangements and keeps things from getting stale for a lifetime! Rick

RichJ - Posted - 09/16/2022:  08:22:18


Thinking on what I wrote above I probably should have included this chart to better illustrate the point I was trying to make.


DougD - Posted - 09/16/2022:  08:40:36


That should be very helpful Rich. Not so easy to describe in words without referring to a piano keyboard or delving too deep into music theory.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/16/2022:  08:43:42


Might be time to play/memorize finger positions for various SCALES..

RichJ - Posted - 09/16/2022:  09:16:32


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Might be time to play/memorize finger positions for various SCALES..






Nah...shouldn't all this just be a kinda' feel it thing between you and the fiddle?

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/16/2022:  09:35:00


quote:

Originally posted by RichJ

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Might be time to play/memorize finger positions for various SCALES..






Nah...shouldn't all this just be a kinda' feel it thing between you and the fiddle?






It depends on the student. It always does.

RichJ - Posted - 09/16/2022:  10:29:58


quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by RichJ

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Might be time to play/memorize finger positions for various SCALES..






Nah...shouldn't all this just be a kinda' feel it thing between you and the fiddle?






It depends on the student. It always does.






Hey Lee - I probably should private message you on this. It sounds like you do/have done lots of fiddle lesson teaching. I've done it a few times for groups of novice fiddlers. Recently I've wondered if novice fiddlers might latch onto fiddling quicker if the lessons were given on a cross tuned fiddle say maybe GDGD instead of the usual standard tuning.  Whadayathink?

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/16/2022:  10:39:57


quote:

Originally posted by RichJ

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

quote:

Originally posted by RichJ

quote:

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Might be time to play/memorize finger positions for various SCALES..






Nah...shouldn't all this just be a kinda' feel it thing between you and the fiddle?






It depends on the student. It always does.






Hey Lee - I probably should private message you on this. It sounds like you do/have done lots of fiddle lesson teaching. I've done it a few times for groups of novice fiddlers. Recently I've wondered if novice fiddlers might latch onto fiddling quicker if the lessons were given on a cross tuned fiddle say maybe GDGD instead of the usual standard tuning.  Whadayathink?






Yes, cross tuning is One good way to start..Classically trained musicians who want to jump into Old Time often enjoy the change in tuning, and beginners  who have No violin experience can learn more quickly about playing octaves and getting drones..There is no rule that applies to all!!  

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/16/2022:  13:22:45


Choose any pitch to start off on. Sing your do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do or, better still, play it on any instrument -- especially one with a keyboard. You'll quickly see how and where the sharps & flats occur as you ascend and descend from the pitch where you began. You'll also quickly understand why written music will often have what are called Key Signatures, different collections of bass or treble signs written on or between the various lines.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 09/16/2022:  14:27:58


I love to see who comments? with a "like".. comments.. A "like" speaks volumes..

Swing - Posted - 09/16/2022:  15:18:30


I don't think that you necessarily need to learn scales and finger positions..the thing to learn is intervals for the major and minor scales, then the rest comes easily...including upper positions or cross string playing.

Play Happy

Swing

RichJ - Posted - 09/17/2022:  08:22:37


Sure don't wanna' crash in on Fiddleheds lesson but, the gal in this video is using scale techniques mentioned in comments I made above.

 



youtube.com/watch?v=fq_mIDLtYMU&t=97s

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