doryman - Posted - 08/27/2022:  11:03:11

Hello wise ones. New-ish fiddler here, and working on adding more double stopping to my playing. I understand and employ the two open string double stops, and the one finger + one open string double stops. I also love the pinky finger and adjacent open string, droning octave double stop (at least that's what I call it).

Now, I'm working on two finger double stops. The only one that I would say that I have down is the relatively easy position where, for a C chord for example, the index finger is on the E note of the D string and the middle finger is on the C note of the A string. I can move that over easy enough to get me G chord and an F chord.

So, what next? I'm a little bit stuck as to figuring out what would be the next, most useful, set of two finger positions to learn for double stops.

coryobert - Posted - 08/27/2022:  11:14:59

Not to "drift" the topic, but I think they are technically only double stops if you're stopping notes with 2 fingers, everything else is a drone.

DougD - Posted - 08/27/2022:  11:20:38

One good one is first finger on a string and third finger on the string below. For example F# on first string and D on second string (for D). You'll notice this is the same as C on A string and open E string, just moved up a step.
Down one string is for G and down one more is for C.
Slide up one step and you have E, A and D.

Edited by - DougD on 08/27/2022 11:22:02

doryman - Posted - 08/27/2022:  11:22:47

quote:

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Originally posted by coryobert

Not to "drift" the topic, but I think they are technically only double stops if you're stopping notes with 2 fingers, everything else is a drone.

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Hmmm, I will agree to disagree!

farmerjones - Posted - 08/27/2022:  11:53:50

Here's the thing I found. Jazzmando.com. There is a section called FFCP. Stands for Four Finger Closed Position or Formation. Now, one has to understand that one can only play two adjacent strings at once, so one must adapt what's being presented. But this has given me the ability to play the I, IV, and V, chords in any key. So, if you know this much, then it's a small step to find the iii, and iv.



Chord theory is a big deal. Many players don't make it this far because the instrument is designed for melody. But chord/harmony theory opens up the instrument as a second. Not exactly an accompaniment, but much more a part of a choir of voices, that is the band. I don't give a darn about playing solo. That's just my preference. But even two fiddlers sitting on a bench. See what two can do besides trading tunes. Trading lead and harmony, that's a great sound indeed. Even if one of you can harmonize, the one that can is more adaptable, so elevating both.

Edited by - farmerjones on 08/27/2022 11:55:41

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 08/27/2022:  16:08:19

Well..... Since you know the C chord on the A and D strings. Using the major minor minor major. Play a major scale by thinking together, apart, apart, together. So... E/C, F/D, G/E, A/F. then move to the next pair of strings and play the same positions starting at the G chord. Using a single finger to play an E chord you may then play a scale using holding the E chord and using your middle ring and pinky fingers. The last pairing is played with the middle and ring finger. Getting them in tune takes practice. I work with a cello tone playing in the background. R/

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 08/27/2022:  18:24:10

To me, the 1/3(going from left to right as you look down the fingerboard), as DougD describes, is the easiest on the ear, though hardest form to get in tune. It's just the most difficult form for me.

That form that you mention--what I call the "pinch" form--is pretty versatile too. Another I would learn is the index finger capo where you stop two adjacent strings and you can play just about any chord you want with the other 3 fingers.

Just like everything fiddle, there's patterns. Practice scales--with the primary note on bottom and a 3, 4, 5 or 6 interval above, and you'll see the pattern. Then, scales with the note above.

When playing in doublestops, try to keep the melody below or above. Not always possible, but the voicing sounds better thataway.

Farmersteve has a good perspective with the closed position. If you look at chords with open strings, they also use the same forms, just that your finger would be sitting on the nut.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/27/2022:  19:33:47

Mel Bay has a book dedicated to double stops in every key. Page 2 says something to the effect, the book doesn't differentiate between playing an open string or a stopped string, it's just playing two adjacent strings, that's considered a double stop. Good enough for Mel Bay, good enough for me.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/27/2022:  19:59:20

I agree with Doug... third and first finger D/#F, G/B, C/E are very useful... as a lot of tunes already have that interplay melodically. Often with the open string between part of melody.... as in D/E/F# linear combinations in D; makes for good exercise just leave third finger down, just lifting first finger off and back on. Then rather as single D and F#, play both together. (the adjacent G/A/B in G tunes is also common)

FWIW, I am pretty sure a "stop" means to use finger to note, not open string... akin to "fretted" notes on banjo, guitar, mando.... so literally a double stop would be two strings stopped.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/27/2022 20:01:24

RobBob - Posted - 08/28/2022:  04:21:11

There is a handy dandy Fiddler's Guide to Movable Shapes booklet out there in the world somewhere that is a real good study of double stops that a John Mailander put our a couple of years ago. I got pretty well versed in them while playing  bluegrass and country music in past decades. They require a lot of practice as does the closed pattern playing that is often used in those settings. That booklet describes it all nicely.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/28/2022:  04:54:23

Doryman, I'm happy to see that you have figured out the progression of double stops across the strings..Don't forget that double stops progress up and down the strings also.. For instance a two finger C double stop becomes a D if you just move those finger each up one full step.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/28/2022:  06:19:15

Found the Mel Bay book. Hold on to your pedantics. It was titled Fiddle Chords.

I learned piano late in life. Like 5 years ago. Even if one doesn't play but understands the keyboard, constructing chords or 2/3rds of a chord is straight forward. Like I said, I discovered this after the fact. Discovering things organically. Now I understand why there could be an F#minor in a chord progression. But I'd prefer to find it by ear, and stay ignorant.

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 08/28/2022:  06:52:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by RobBob

There is a handy dandy Fiddler's Guide to Movable Shapes booklet out there in the world somewhere that is a real good study of double stops that a John Mailander put our a couple of years ago. I got pretty well versed in them while playing  bluegrass and country music in past decades. They require a lot of practice as does the closed pattern playing that is often used in those settings. That booklet describes it all nicely.

---

Yes, I recommend this book, too--I bought it awhile back and it was very helpful:  johnmailander.com/shop

You can also find it at Fiddlershop.

Swing - Posted - 08/29/2022:  05:11:27

I just took a quick look at John Mainlander's book... it certainly looks like a great resource.... farmerjones makes a very good point about learning to construct chords on a piano... you would have both a tonal and visual reference.... in the jazz guitar world, they play chord melody..which basically uses chords as notes on a tune/song... once you get the basic chord patterns down and learn that moving them side to side or up and down the neck (since they are closed patterns) you can start to play passages of tunes if not the entire tune in double stops...your ears will tell you when you are gettin it right...

Play Happy

Swing

echord - Posted - 08/29/2022:  10:40:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I agree with Doug... third and first finger D/#F, G/B, C/E are very useful... as a lot of tunes already have that interplay melodically. Often with the open string between part of melody.... as in D/E/F# linear combinations in D; makes for good exercise just leave third finger down, just lifting first finger off and back on. Then rather as single D and F#, play both together. (the adjacent G/A/B in G tunes is also common)

FWIW, I am pretty sure a "stop" means to use finger to note, not open string... akin to "fretted" notes on banjo, guitar, mando.... so literally a double stop would be two strings stopped.

---

Not to quibble but I will just same ) all strings on the violin (and other stringed instruments) are "stopped" in the sense that their length is fixed whether you finger them or not.  Violin strings are stopped by the bridge and nut (and/or your finger), so an interval with a fingered note on one string and an "open" string on another is still technically a double stop.  More to the point, "double stop" is just technical jargon  for some instruments. Pianos don't have double stops -- the are just called intervals.

So whether the fiddle player uses 1 finger or 2, or no fingers at all,  to make a two note interval, both strings lengths are fixed,  hence are  "double stops"  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edited by - echord on 08/29/2022 10:44:16

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 08/29/2022:  11:13:21

here's my double stop bible on one page

Fiddle Double Stop Theory

 

Brian Wood - Posted - 08/29/2022:  15:56:20

quote:

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Originally posted by echord

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I agree with Doug... third and first finger D/#F, G/B, C/E are very useful... as a lot of tunes already have that interplay melodically. Often with the open string between part of melody.... as in D/E/F# linear combinations in D; makes for good exercise just leave third finger down, just lifting first finger off and back on. Then rather as single D and F#, play both together. (the adjacent G/A/B in G tunes is also common)

FWIW, I am pretty sure a "stop" means to use finger to note, not open string... akin to "fretted" notes on banjo, guitar, mando.... so literally a double stop would be two strings stopped.

---

Not to quibble but I will just same ) all strings on the violin (and other stringed instruments) are "stopped" in the sense that their length is fixed whether you finger them or not.  Violin strings are stopped by the bridge and nut (and/or your finger), so an interval with a fingered note on one string and an "open" string on another is still technically a double stop.  More to the point, "double stop" is just technical jargon  for some instruments. Pianos don't have double stops -- the are just called intervals.

So whether the fiddle player uses 1 finger or 2, or no fingers at all,  to make a two note interval, both strings lengths are fixed,  hence are  "double stops"  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

---

I call them open double stops because it's descriptive and I don't have to fish for another term.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/29/2022:  16:23:16

Pianos don't have stops at all so why would one use that term for a piano?
Organs, one the other hand, do have stops, but they aren't the same as stopping a string from vibrating its full length.

I wonder, would one call bowing two open strings a double stop?

DougD - Posted - 08/29/2022:  16:27:18

I was just rummaging around the Internet, where all knowledge resides (sometimes well hidden) and it seems that two open strings, or one open string and one fingered, are usually considered "doublestops."
This site looked like it might be a pretty good resource: violinspiration.com/violin-dou...ps-chart/

Edited by - DougD on 08/29/2022 16:31:05

farmerjones - Posted - 08/29/2022:  16:59:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Pianos don't have stops at all so why would one use that term for a piano?

Organs, one the other hand, do have stops, but they aren't the same as stopping a string from vibrating its full length.



I wonder, would one call bowing two open strings a double stop?

---

Initially, I mentioned the piano because I thought it really helped me understand chord theory more thoroughly. Before, I didn't know about inversions. Before piano I didn't know I was sometimes employing rootless chords (double stops).  I don't rightly know if if it helped me play, but it explained things after the fact. 

The most interesting thing I find, is minors using only double stops or duo tones. If one doesn't play the flatted note, or the note that defines the minor chord from the major, one essentially has a sus chord. Or a non-declared minor chord.  All this blah, blah, blah, doesn't  matter because it sounds good, and that's what counts. It's trickery. It's another reason I love a fiddle. That, and no %%& frets. 

doryman - Posted - 08/29/2022:  17:40:58

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone. I'm going to work on Doug's pattern for now (I actually HAVE been working on it, but I'm terrible at it). Years ago, before I fiddled, I looked up the definition for "double stops" and I was surprised to learn that the strings can be open to qualify for that definition. It is not intuitive, but it is correct.

buckhenry - Posted - 08/29/2022:  18:28:20

Maybe learn all possible double stops for each chord across all four strings, include the passing double stops.
When changing chords choose the closest double stop.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/29/2022:  20:38:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by farmerjones

quote:

---

nitially, I mentioned the piano because I thought it really helped me understand chord theory more thoroughly. Before, I didn't know about inversions. Before piano I didn't know I was sometimes employing rootless chords (double stops).  I don't rightly know if if it helped me play, but it explained things after the fact......

I mentioned the piano because someone said something about stops and pianos (not you). You are spot on with your use of the piano to help visualize and thus better understand chord theory.  Inversions are the secret sauce of dyads (the term for double stops on other instruments - two notes days at once). 

doryman - Posted - 08/29/2022:  22:10:25

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

Maybe learn all possible double stops for each chord across all four strings, include the passing double stops.

When changing chords choose the closest double stop.

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That's a lot of learning!  But I'll get there eventually.

buckhenry - Posted - 08/29/2022:  23:24:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

Maybe learn all possible double stops for each chord across all four strings, include the passing double stops.

When changing chords choose the closest double stop.

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That's a lot of learning!  But I'll get there eventually.

 

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A long term goal perhaps. 

Another 'next step' would be to pick a 1-4-5 progression and only play all the chords on one set of strings at a time. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/30/2022:  00:19:03

I think that the difference between a "Chord Tone" and a "Drone", is that a Drone is usually used to describe the root note of a Mode in western music.... Or other group of notes derived from a Mode. And a Chord tone is a Term to describe a note in a triad that forms a 3 note chord.other notes that are not part of the triad are described as "Extensions".



Ie: D Ionian, D mixolyidian, D Dorian, D Aolian, and even D Lydian and Locrian (although hardly ever used, probably because of their # 4th and b5th respectively). The pentatonic scales, and other groups of notes derived from them. use a D "Drone".

i think that "Gapped scales", "Arabic maqam's", "Indian Raga's" etc. also use Drones or tone's to which all the other tones are compared ?... Whether the Drone is sounded or not. but that is conjecture on my part.



A different concept from Keys, Triads, 7th chords, and Major/minor harmonies etc. Although i think the different concepts often cross paths.

Again, just my personal opinion.

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/30/2022 00:26:07

DougD - Posted - 08/30/2022:  01:08:35

Doryman - Even the biggest cake is eaten one slice at a time, so here are a couple thoughts on the position I suggested. It is composed of the tonic and third (1 - 3) with the root on the bottom, which gives a solid suggestion of the major chord. The shape you already know is also the root and third, but with the third on the bottom and the root above. The third establishes the major (if you slide your first finger down to the "low" position it will be minor) but its tricky since the third is "malleable" all the way between those two points. The third finger tonic can be checked against the open string below, an octave lower, and then you have to find the first finger position that pleases you.
BTW if you use this position on the D and A strings for G, you can combine both double stops by adding the G on the E string with your second finger (G-B-G). You can't play all three strings at once, but these (combined with the D on the A string) are useful "anchor points" for playing in G, much like what alaskafiddler described for D tunes.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/30/2022:  12:42:36

quote:

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Originally posted by echord

all strings on the violin (and other stringed instruments) are "stopped" in the sense that their length is fixed whether you finger them or not. 

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But begs a question...  If refers to all notes, are considered stopped, (regardless of left hand fingers), there is no there such a thing as an unstopped note... why use term at all, if doesn't mean or refer to anything? 

As I understood it and seen historically used... and always made intuitive logical sense to me. Seems to align with these, the physics of changing pitch...

Merrimiam Webster. 

Stop - transitive verb

          7 a : to change the pitch of (something, such as a violin string) by pressing with the finger

Dictionary.com 

Stop -   verb (used with object), stopped

    14  Music.

         b. to press down (a string of a violin, viola, etc.) in order to alter the pitch of the tone produced from it.

        c. to produce (a particular note) by so doing.

Harvard Dictionary of Music - 

Stopping. In string instruments, (violin, lute) placing the fingertips of the left hand so that they shorten the vibrating length of the string.

Stopped not - Wikipedia

On string instruments, a stopped note is a note whose pitch has been altered from the pitch of the open string by the player's left hand pressing (stopping) the string against the fingerboard.

On bowed string instruments, a stopped note is a played note that is fingered with the left hand, i.e. not an open string.^[1] 

On plucked string instruments with frets, such as the guitar, the pitch of a stopped note is determined by the left hand pressing (stopping) the string at one of the frets.

The reference is from musicology and orchestration... seems to align how folks like Helmholtz "On the Sensation of Tone" use it in explain physics of sound on string intruments; as well more conteporary reference in articles Are Stopped Strings Preferred in Sad Music? | Empirical Musicology Review (emusicology.org) 

Unlike unfretted instruments, stopped strings are terminated by the fleshy pad of the finger, producing a less well-defined end-point with the finger absorbing high-frequency vibrational energy compared with the nut (Schelleng, 1973). As a result, open strings are widely regarded as brighter sounding than stopped strings. 

(pianos would be unfretted instrument, don't shorten individual strings length to change pitch in this manner, so makes sense they wouldn't be referred to as stops)

These all use the term to refer to something that differentiates. Thus double stop, "double" (refers to 2)... so two of those fingered (stopped) notes at same time. Makes sense to me, simple and straightforward.

If doesn't mean that...  what then is meaning of a stop/stopped note? Again, why come up with that term at all, if doesn't mean or refer to anything? 

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/30/2022 12:49:17

doryman - Posted - 08/30/2022:  18:22:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Doryman - Even the biggest cake is eaten one slice at a time, so here are a couple thoughts on the position I suggested. It is composed of the tonic and third (1 - 3) with the root on the bottom, which gives a solid suggestion of the major chord. The shape you already know is also the root and third, but with the third on the bottom and the root above. The third establishes the major (if you slide your first finger down to the "low" position it will be minor) but its tricky since the third is "malleable" all the way between those two points. The third finger tonic can be checked against the open string below, an octave lower, and then you have to find the first finger position that pleases you.

BTW if you use this position on the D and A strings for G, you can combine both double stops by adding the G on the E string with your second finger (G-B-G). You can't play all three strings at once, but these (combined with the D on the A string) are useful "anchor points" for playing in G, much like what alaskafiddler described for D tunes.

---

Thanks Doug, however, you've never seen me eat cake!

echord - Posted - 08/31/2022:  07:41:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

---

Originally posted by echord

all strings on the violin (and other stringed instruments) are "stopped" in the sense that their length is fixed whether you finger them or not. 

---

 

(pianos would be unfretted instrument, don't shorten individual strings length to change pitch in this manner, so makes sense they wouldn't be referred to as stops)

 

These all use the term to refer to something that differentiates. Thus double stop, "double" (refers to 2)... so two of those fingered (stopped) notes at same time. Makes sense to me, simple and straightforward.

If doesn't mean that...  what then is meaning of a stop/stopped note? Again, why come up with that term at all, if doesn't mean or refer to anything? 

You make good points and I agree, basically.... particularly with your last paragraph.  Since "double stop" is jargon used entirely by string players, why even have the term at all? Why not just call it by its real name ..... an "Interval" which is even more direct, less subject to confusion, and doesn't require multiple dictionary entries? Otherwise, what is an interval with only one note stopped by a finger and the other an open string ...a "single stop"??   Who calls it that? I'm guessing, but I think most fiddlers probably think of any interval as a "double stop" anyway.

As for pianos, the string lengths are already determined and vary from pins to curved bridges, so the whole stop concept is meaningless, as it is with many other instruments (although I still contend the string is technically "stopped" by the upper and lower bridges.

"Play the interval C to G..." would make it clearer on all instruments capable of playing more than one note at a time.  So why confuse the issue with unnecessary jargon specific to only one style of instrument? Just so folks like us can waste a perfectly serviceable Wednesday morning over coffee debating an issue most people couldn't care less about, I suppose.  Ah, the joys of retirement.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/31/2022:  12:50:05

If you want to go the intuitive route say in the key of D Major. Then just play D pentatonic scale (D, E, F#, A, B (D Octave) ), on the 2 middle strings (D&A) "Always"playing both strings". All of the notes will harmonize no matter which you play together. Just don't play a G or a C# note ever, and work out a version of a simple tune using those notes on the 2 middle strings. when you need a G note in the tune play a E note( 3rd below G), and when you need a C# note in the tune play an A note (a 3rd below C#).

All the notes in a pentatonic scale harmonize with each other. When you are confident with that, add the blue note F Natural... See where that takes you....

Limitation is the mother of invention.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/31/2022:  14:51:05

"Since "double stop" is jargon used entirely by string players, why even have the term at all? Why not just call it by its real name ..... an "Interval" which is even more direct, less subject to confusion, and doesn't require multiple dictionary entries? Otherwise, what is an interval with only one note stopped by a finger and the other an open string ...a "single stop?"

I actually have a masters degree in Linguistics (gotten long ago), and I got to tell you that every language on the planet rife with inconsistencies. So just let it happen. The term makes sense, anyway. After all, when you physically alter the pitches of two strings at once, you are indeed doing a double stop, i.e., simultaneously shortening the length of two strings to achieve a desired harmony.

By the same token, when you are bowing two strings and are only stopping down one of them, there's really no reason to cloud the picture by calling it a single stop. You're just bowing a couple strings at once with one held down...once again to get a nice a nice harmony.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/01/2022:  16:17:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by echord

You make good points and I agree, basically.... particularly with your last paragraph.  Since "double stop" is jargon used entirely by string players, why even have the term at all? Why not just call it by its real name ..... an "Interval" which is even more direct, less subject to confusion,

I think you misinterpreted my comment... Terminology can be quite useful to reduce confusion, quickly understand what is being discussed. Not wanting to be obsessive, grammar police about it, but my comment was that if going to use terminology vaguely, not what means or used, or making them meaningless; then why use them at all. The OP wanting to work on two finger double stops, ones that don't use open string...  struck me as funny, redundant.  

Double Stop is it's real name, seems self defining; when most likely comes up in discussion, like in that OP, it does convey something typically in context related technical/physical mechanics using fingers to stop both both notes; (as in the dictionary definition). especially context about about learning, challenges, working on, practice, exercises of related to using fingers for both notes. -  "Double stop" seems useful term that conveys that.  Playing an E note with finger on the A string is a stopped note, differeniating from open E string, can be a useful term. [Similar string instruments terminology is closed position, or playing out of closed chord positions, a way to differentiate]

Just an observation... for most part, most seem differentiating it from just melody but using adjacent open string... good example is in OT fiddling, esp playing in AEAE, just adjacent open (A or E) string. I don't notice folks referring to that as playing a bunch double stops (perhaps drone). When folks use term Double Stop, seems what they are describing is not that, what they are asking about... but beyond that. 

The problem with just simply using "Interval", would not really convey any of the difference directly, and perhaps be subject to more confusion... as it's context about music theory relationship of notes context; which can refer to it in many ways. (interval doesn't mean stopped, nor double stop; or limited to notes played simultaneous, nor chords). 

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/01/2022 16:26:48

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/01/2022:  17:24:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

So, what next? I'm a little bit stuck as to figuring out what would be the next, most useful, set of two finger positions to learn for double stops.

---

Most common useful double stops 

First - point out that the single finger double stop, in which one finger stops both strings is very useful. The most common, useful and easiest is probably the first finger (some refer to finger capo idea), in the normal first postion (low to high, A/E; E/b; b/f#). It takes some work to get your finger to land perfect on both. And can serve as anchor for other double stops

From there, keeping first finger in place on high string; (using just low strings; G/D for example, but can move over coarse)

Second finger on lower string of pair, a whole step up making B/E. 

Third finger one and half step up, C/E

Third finger two step up, C#/E 

The next fo the other way, with the first finger staying on the low string of pair

Second finger up half step, A/F

Second finger up whole step. A/F#

Next useful... and fairly easy doesn't use first finger, but second finger on low string and third finger up half step on high, B/G

boxbow - Posted - 09/02/2022:  14:11:31

Thread drift first:

Context really determines the appropriate word choice. If it really, really, really matters, for instance, I could say "closed position double stop" and it could mean only two (or more) stopped strings. But if I'm talking about ornaments in general, then the more generic choice of "double stop" says the mostest with the leastest. Also, if the one string is played unstopped, isn't it a drone? And so we can have this whole conversation viewed from the other end. Is it a drone if it's stopped? Could be. Anyway, rather than pin down the perfect technical term, I'd go for the adjectives and adverbs as needed to get the job done. I'd seriously consider waving my arms about as well. In a pinch, I'd start scribbling indecipherable diagrams. I'm handy that way.

On topic:

I deconstructed mandolin chord shapes for a lot of very useful double stops.  Of course, it involved playing a mandolin, sort of.  It still makes for a great work board to see where the stops (frets) really are relative to eah other, and if you get it right you'll hear an actual chord.

Edited by - boxbow on 09/02/2022 14:17:11

pete_fiddle - Posted - 09/04/2022:  06:50:25

Yep. Context is "A" and, maybe "The" deciding factor, in how an individual perceives the quality of an interval between two tones, played simultaneously.